One more observation about intoxicants, they make people blundering

1572 By your life, they are in their intoxication, blundering.

My view on the subject is that intoxicants are not recommended in Quran because they are something which covers peoples understanding.
The verse 443 points it out.

443 O you who believe, do not come near the contact prayer while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying. ...

Alcohol makes people stupid.
Psychedelics as pot and others enhance the understanding (in moderate doses - too much pot or too often dont have this effect).

c0de,
thanks for a challange, you had many good arguments and i also gain some new knowledge (forex. similar to THC), but i feel like im wasting my time here, specially when i look at the last lines, to which i suppousedly should reply... so i am out. for now.
hope you enjoy arguing with herbman here, its definitely his thread, as his name tells O0

i know, many muslims dont take bible seriously, so it will propably not be very strong argument, but still, see what the bible tells about cannabis
http//www.cannabisculture.com/backissues/mayjune96/kanehbosm.html

(lol) Maybe your brain produces THC, but the rest of our brains produce substances which are similar to THC (not actually THC). But even that does not help your argument because the brain also produces serotonin and dopamine as well. This does not mean we should start popping xtc and shooting heroin.
so now you admit that quantaties do mather as previously you sayd quantaties dont mather?

I am not the one claiming enlightenment via drugs here bud. You're the one constantly "lifting the veil"... So go ahead... enlighten me.
i just pointed out that when you are talking about reality, you dont know what you are talking about.
however, i think you have to admit that when you had your experiences with mind altering substances your understanding about reality changed.

If your intention is really to "lift the veil" and come closer to God, then I advise you to stop using drugs which only provide a means to escape from reality.
691 The reality.
692 What is the reality?
693 Absolutely, do you know what is the reality?

human brain itself produce tiny amounts of THC (which is the main cannabis ingridient in making HIGH). so how could it be intoxicant? we cant ?shun? it. IMPOSSIBLE !

peace

i have also read some materials about Maitreya. short introduction is here
http//share-international.org/introduction/introduction1.htm

In Islam, he is known as Mahdi, the messenger of covenant and the messenger reciting the holy scriptures.
in quran there is no Mahdi, in my understanding.

it seems to be sunnis understanding
http//www.mahdiaccordingtofoursunnischools.com/

The schools of the People of the Sunnah are in agreement that the Prophet ?Isa (as) will return to Earth at a date close to Doomsday, that he will descend to Earth in the wake of the appearance of the Dajjal, that he will kill the Dajjal and that he will face the Kaaba as he performs his prayers. They regard any objections in this area as heretical. (Al-Farq bayn al-Firaq, Abd-al-Qahir ibn Tahir ibn Muhammad al-Baghdadi)

Qur?an

381,82

381 And God took a covenant from the prophets ?For what I have given you of the Scripture and wisdom, then a messenger will come to you authenticating what is with you. You will believe in him and support him.? He said ?Do you testify, and agree to this burden??, they said ?We testify.? He said ?Then bear witness, and I am with you bearing witness.?
382 Whoever turns away after that, then they are the wicked ones.

There is no prediction of coming some Mahdi in those verses. Here it is sayd that to those prophets from who God take the covenant, will come a messenger.

616

616 And when Jesus, son of Mary, said ?O children of Israel, I am God's messenger to you, authenticating what is present with me of the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be ?most acclaimed.?? But when he showed them the clear proofs, they said ?This is clearly magic?

this ?most claimed? is in arabic ?ahmed? which is another form of Muhammad.

981,2

981 Those who rejected amongst the people of the Scripture and those who set up partners would not leave until proof came to them.
982 A messenger from God reciting purified scripts.

here also is no specific messenger in question.
God sends messengers all the time to every nation

1047 And for every nation is a messenger; so when their messenger comes, the matter is decreed between them with justice, and they are not wronged.

I dont wanna say that there are no Maitreya coming. I just say that those claims you gave are not correct and in my opinion the quran do not talk about Maitreya.

lol... thnx 4 such a credible source dude. P
thanks for pointing it out, beacause it was not the original aadress
http//www.eoni.com/~visionquest/library/SOTH.html

Opium has no added chemicals. Neither do many other narcotics. So again your argument that weed is okay because it is natural is flawed
this was not about opium, i talked aboud LSD.
as there are many poisonous plants, then ofcourse all plants are not okay to consume. as sayd already before. will you keep drumming?

That is why I do not neccessarily agree with making pot illegal. But it should be "shuned" willingly.
finally you admit that intoxicants are not forbidden? and its not in your power to make plants forbidden?

and if YOU are convinced that pot is an intoxicant, then yes, YOU better "shun" it willingly. because, as i have understand, most harmful is to act against your own understandings - to be a hypocrite.

as for those who dont consider pot as an intoxicant but see it as God?s blessing and gift for reaching higher states of consciousness, for those i give from the same webpage one more article which will probably affirm their current understanding and will give many interesting thoughts of how to reach from high even higher by meditation and other practices.
http//www.eoni.com/~visionquest/library/entheo1.html (there are 3 parts)

God is the Most High.

this may depend on the using culture. starting from mentioning God?s name upon it...

made a little search about cannabis and higher states of conciousness in internet and find that there are much interesting stuff on the subject.
for example this article, which in many points represents also my understanding

Expand Your Consciousness Through Cannabis

It has been known for many millennia, and perhaps even before the advent of languages, that there exist in nature certain substances which greatly aid personal unfoldment. Known today as "entheogens" and also, "teacher plants", such substances are becoming more widely understood as accelerators of human consciousness. Among these is the Cannabis Herb, also known as "marijuana", whose flowers induce THE HIGH.

The high of cannabis is considered a mild hallucinogenic, but when it is properly used, it is neither mild, nor hallucinogenic. Instead, this Herb can be an extremely potent conveyor of high states of consciousness, one that can be used by the meditator for the sake of gaining greater clarity, vibration, (level of high) energy, (chi) psychic powers, greater health, intelligence and wisdom. By "properly used" I mean the Herb should be smoked with a reverent and spiritual INTENTION, and whose full potential absolutely CANNOT be realized without the practice of meditation. Most smokers assume that the high is a finite thing depending solely upon the chemistry of a given piece of bud. But the truth is that the high can be greatly amplified through meditational focus upon it, and through the conscious employment of INTENT.

...
see http//www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9140587

I read the article and the Quran. The definition of "shun" still stands. God told us to stay well away from intoxicants, as pot is an intoxicant.
shun does not mean forbidden.

Wrong again. LSD is derived from a natural substance. The actual core compound in the "lysergic acid" comes from the seeds of a plant.
haven?t you noticed that everything is derived from natural substances? what i am talking about is that man takes natural substance to chemical lab, makes some hocus-pocus and the outcome is a substance which didnt exist before. LSD is a mix of such manmade substances.

So He created the plants which are allowed, and the plants which are forbidden.
no plant is forbidden. it was the Adam and Eve story where there were one forbidden fruit. now there are not even that one forbidden fruit.

lawful vs forbidden
16114 So eat from what God has provided for you, that which is good and lawful, and thank the blessings of God, if it is indeed He whom you serve.
16115 He only made forbidden for you what is already dead, and blood, and the meat of pig, and what was sacrificed to any other than God. But whoever is forced to, without disobedience or transgression, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
16116 And do not say regarding what your tongues describe with lies ?This is lawful and that is forbidden;? that you seek to invent lies about God. Those who invent lies about God will not succeed.

Nothing which supports your argument... the word "shun" has been provided with a definition for you in the previous post.
so you read the article and you still say weed is forbidden?

But this argument has already been nullified with the "fruits" of the poppy plants (opium) and grapes (wine).
which argument?
because of opium the qurans argument about fruits as provisions are nullified? lol

buddy, I don't have to convince anyone, they already know. You're the only one here who is persistently arguing that it is not. Or did you not notice that?
truth has nothing to do with democracy or voting.

OPF,
in my opinion cannabis provides access to higher levels of conciousness. so its comparable to "lifting the veil".
this ?access to higher levels of conciousness? is not only my understanding. it is a common knowledge among users. altought not among all the users. while many feel clouded, others feel high.
this may depend on the using culture. starting from mentioning God?s name upon it...

The idea that synthetics vs natural substances matters is also laughable. LSD is a creation of God because everything comes from God. What do you make of that, tarmo?
the substances you find in LSD occur nowhere naturally. they are synthesised by man.
ofcourse, everything what happens in here, you may say comes from God. so you may also say that evil comes from God. What do you make of that, OPF?

Dude, hands down, this is the WORST argument you have put up yet. The words "shun it" are clearly used and even more their negative effects are clearly outlined.

"shun?verb
to keep away from (a place, person, object, etc.), from motives of dislike, caution, etc.; take pains to avoid."

?They ask you (O Muhammad) about intoxicants and games of chance. Say ?In both of them there is a great wrong and a means of (some) profit for men; but their sin is greater than their profit.??
Surah Baqarah, ayat 219

? O you who believe! Intoxicants and games of chance, and idolatrous practices, and the divining of the future are but a loathsome evil of Satan?s doing shun it, then, so that you might attain to a happy state! By means of intoxicants and games of chance Satan seeks only to sow enmity and hatred among you, and to turn you away from the remembrance of God and from prayer. Will you not then desist??
Surah al-Ma?idah, Ayat 90-91.

Dont get carried away just yet.
There is a good article on the subject
http//free-minds.org/alcohol2

psychoactive drug

btw, in Greek psyche - soul ja deloo - expose
psychedelia - exposing soul

The reason why opium and wine were brought up were to counter your argument that weed can not be classified as khamr because it a natural plant. When opium is clearly natural and obviously khamr.
this was not what i sayd.

Where do you get this reasoning from? You tried to support it with the verse of the Quran which was talking about fruits (!!!) when cannabis is clearly NOT a fruit (duh!)
english is not my first language. in my language ?fruit? means whatever some plant carries - for example appletree fruits are apples, rye?s fruits are its corns. my understanding is that so is the case in english. altought in any language there may be more precise words for thise fruits. for example bud. but generally, what plants carry, are its fruits. or not?
and anyway, we are not talking about ?fruit? but its arabic equivalent.

How can you say plants are ok when you ignore the example of opium which is totally natural and comes directly from the poppy plant?
i already specified the obvious fact that there are poisoning plants also. so yes, all plants are not ok to consume. happy? D

we are tripping way off of the subject.
islam?s view on marijuana is that its not forbidden, even if we say (as some insists) that marijuana is an intoxicants.
but my opinion is that it is not intoxicant because, it doesnt cloud the mind.

so c0de, if you have more to say about this issue, try to convince readers that marijuana cloudes minds.

peace O0

c0de,

First, lets make clear that intoxicants are not forbidden.
All what is forbidden by God are clearly brought forth in the quran by saying its forbidden.

In 590 it is sayd that you should avoid devil, not intoxicants.
590 O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and sacraments, and fortunes are foul tools used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.

but this is not very important here in this discussion because cannabis is not an intoxicant.

Did you think I would overlook the fact that you have completely avoided dealing with the opium issue? Or the wine example, from the last post? You think you can get away with just ignoring points that you can't answer in a debate?

opium and wine are not cannabis.
if i would tell you that honey comes from plants and is very beneficial and allowed, it wouldnt help me much defending cannabis. so talking all the time about opium doesnt help you also when we talk about cannabis.
i sayd earlier that plants are ok compared to synthetical materials. but ofcourse there are many poisonous plants too. (obvious without mentioning)

Another invalid argument. Moderate use has nothing to do with it, otherwise wine would also be allowed as it is also beneficial in moderate doses.
cant agree with you, because your arguments are invalid. you cant say, bringing an example from alcohol, that moderate use has nothing to do with it. because i can bring you opposite example
scientists say that salt is a natural mood-elevating substance. and its addictive.
in moderate doses its OK. but if to consume it too much it can be very harmful. (http//www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090310152329.htm)

as you are in such a mood of forbidding, maybe you would like to forbid salt also? why not, salt may be harmful and is addictive?

so, where are we?
back in my first post, where is kmr translation.
something is khamr when it clouds your mind.
i say it dont cloud my mind. you say it clouds your mind.

http//www.webmd.com/brain/news/20080602/marijuana-use-may-shrink-the-brain

In the study, researchers used high-resolution magnetic resonance imaging to compare the brain structure of 15 men who smoked more than five joints of marijuana daily for more than 10 years with images from 16 men who did not smoke pot.

study with 31 people is not much of a study.
5 joints daily for 10 years D
I think the reason why there were only 31 people in this study, is that they couldnt find more than 15 people, who smoke so much cannabis, for so long, daily...

have i already mentioned that very important with this issue is the balance? your example is totally out of balance.

so says the article too

"Although modest use may not lead to significant neurotoxic effects, these results suggest that heavy daily use might indeed be toxic to human brain tissue."

too much of whatever is not good to health.

Invalid argument. Long term marijuana use is bad for every user, while peanuts are only bad for those who are allergic to them.
invalid and unprovable statement @ every user. you have to agree that marijuana is beneficial to medical marijuana patients.

This verse is more applicable to you allowing things which are clearly forbidden.
6151 Say ?Come let me recite for you what your Lord has forbidden for you ...
Sorry to say, mate, cannabis was not in the list.

Dude, THC is the chemical compound in weed which gets you high.... Opium is the extract of the poppy plant, totally natural. So your argument (again) is proven defective. Because you can not claim that just because weed/thc is a plant it is not khamr, because opium is totally natural and obviously khamr.

I know what is what. You had some mistakes here, when you sayd "Opium is a naturally occurring plant"

Okay, that... makes no sense. The study proved that long term use of marijuana was toxic to parts of the brain, therefore they shrank! (i.e. became less effective in handling emotions)
I have no reason to believe what you are saying. In history there have been so many fake studies about cannabis which have shown so many bad things. However, all studies, made later, have proved otherwise. If you want to maks some point here, show us the studie.

I never denied the medicinal properties of marijuana, but that is for people who have CANCER or other severe pain and ailments. People in those states are also allowed morphine. You think that morphine is not khamr?

do you know that cannabis also have preventive properties?

there are not much substances (natural or not) which are absolutely ok for human. all have some sideeffects which someone might say are not good for you. forexample, there are much more deaths with peanuts allergies than scisophrenia occuring with cannabis. would you like to prohibit peanuts?
and i dont even want to start the same subject with food you buy from your supermarket. one foodbasket is propably hundreds of times more harmful than a year full of smoking cannabis.

... it took you this long to figure that out???

so you would prohibit cannabis...

1059 Say ?Have you seen what God has sent down to you from provisions, then you made some of it forbidden and some lawful?? Say ?Did God authorize you, or did you invent lies against God??

Dude Opium is the direct EXTRACT of the poppy plant without any processing or added chemicals. It is no different then the THC in your pot, its what gets you high. Also, take the example of the magic mushrooms which are not-processed in any way but produce the same effects as LSD.
THC is not a plant also.

Yes I can. In a recent study they found that marijuana use causes the part of your brain which deals with fear to shrink in size, which basically means that they are less able to deal with stressful situations because they are less able to handle pressure.

how do you see, shrinking the size of something what couses fear to be a bad thing? if this part of your brain would grow, this would sound bad.
I see that cannabis makes people relaxed, happy and peaceful. its normal, that when you are in those states you dont panic and are not affraid.

Now the proccess of "lifting the veil" causes a person to gain freedom from all fear, of everything besides God. This is a direct contradiction with effects of marijuana use. Why do you think marijuana users are usually more paranoid? You think that is just a funny coincidence?
not all cannabis users are paranoid. pretty much the only thing that makes cannabis users paranoid, is the fact that cannabis is illegal. police
i couldnt say, that cannabis makes me paranoid. how could i, if i clearly understand that onlyone to fear is God? but yes i know also that some people may get paranoid.

Since when is cannabis a "fruit"? (lol)
if cannabis bud is not cannabis plants fruit, then what is it?

the definition of khamr is exactly that its harm is MORE then its benefit.
you have to help me out here, from where did this defination come? or what means khamr, same as intoxicant? if so, then i already provided the meaning at the beginning.

Personal insults aren't gonna help you here bud, you're already in quick sand.
sorry if you feel insulted. i didnt mean to insult you. but i dont know you, its a public forum, you never know if you meet this one out of 5000.

what is your point anyway? do you wanna say that muslims should not use cannabis?
cannabis as a plant have been nominated to number one healing herb on the planet. both - by ancients healers as well as many nowadays sientists. type to your internet search engine "medical marijuana" and see for yourself which are the benefits. btw - any statistics you find in internet will show you that there is no deaths (or one or two deaths through history) related to cannabisuse.
forexample, there are thousands of deaths over the world in a year with aspirin alone. but cannabis is more efficient painkiller, without death possibility. do you say a muslim should eat aspirin instead of cannabis?

666

Any form of addiction is Haram.
show me the aya.
prayer or meditation can also have addictive properties.

opium is not a plant.

what i cant prove, is that cannabis have viel lifting properties.
and you cant prove otherwise.
i can bring many arguments from many religions to back me up.
only hard evidence what i have, is that God gave all fruits to us as gifts. in every plant there are benefits. it?s so even if some people misuse some plants.
i have also statistics, that show that most cannabis users, find it very beneficial for them in many ways. people heal and so on. but there are also some people who may have negative effects. forexample 1 out of 5000 may get scisofrenic. maybe this one was you?

i can say, it works for me, and you can say it didnt for you.
and i believe you. when you mixed different drugs you didnt like the outcome - logish.
you dont believe me. and its ok too.
as i sayd earlier - different people, different outcomes.

you have to prove that these natural substances are not khamr, when I am telling you that they are.

i have proved to myself. and i have proved here.
its you who say, ?hei i am a longtime addict i know?. i just say that your statements are nothing more than ?follow me, i know?. but you dont come with evidences.

peace

I know about the (fake) political drug war, and I don't support it. I am not defending the actions of the governments, because I know they are a political stunt. My argument has nothing to do with politics. You have to prove that weed is not included in the definition of khamr, and until you do, you have no case.
you know, i didnt argue with you, when i posted my last post. its a information for those who dont know, not to you specially. dont take everything personally.

to get heroin from opium, you have to add to opium some substances.
for example if you add some wierd substances to gasoline, would you consume the result as a drug?
normal people don?t and won?t. and they don?t consume opium either. but some people consume opium+something = heroin.
you cant make heroin from natural plant. its like plastic, made from petroleum, normal people just dont consume it!

Actually, I am in a better position then you. I used it in the past, but I am no longer dependent on it, so my view is not biased, like yours.

i dont know you, bro. i know you used chemicals. this puts you to a position to talk about chemicals.
you propably consumed LSD. there are God given mushrooms, many kind of them. they give you alsmost the same trip as LSD but they are clean. clean because they are in balance. thy have psychoactive substances and also balancing substances. LSD have only psychoacyive substances. as i sayd before. you can (and should) but your trust in God (as the quran telles you to) but you should not put your trust in chemicists.

those who read the quran and hadits dont know what is pure quran-based islam. they only know what is the quran + hadits.
you did cannabis and also manmade substances, so you dont know what is the pure cannabis. you only know what is cannabis + synthetically maniplulated materials. this position is not comparable with someone who has s/he?s trust in God (and God given provisions) alone.

UNION - its a movie which tells you all you need to know about cannabis.

http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9077214414651731007&ei=eja6SdS5BIPg

Already first 4 minutes says much important things.
Cannabis was the biggest crop in the world, before it got criminalised 100 years ago, in wrong reasons, mostly because of greed. It has been legal for hundreds and thousands of years in the past.

my point with you is that if you mixed chemical narcotics and cannabis together, then you are not in a position to have a clear view on cannabis. your opinion goes to the mind alerting mix. and ofcourse, this mix cant be same as only cannabis.
its same with persons who drink alcohol and smoke cannabis together. i talked with such person yesterday. not nice. also.

and its the same as to read the (God given) quran and follow (manmade) sunnah at the same time. then reject islam and say its all BS.

O0