Salaam Neil handshake I hope from your comments about truth that you are not into conspiracies are you? D Are you connected with ccg by any chance? Your message history is very interesting indeed. Please send an email, if you would, summarizing as much as you know. But bare in mind that forum private messages are monitored.

Salaam Layth, Where does this word "sabien" come from? If what is already written is not as simple and clear enough already, then at least please do not terminate my account or delete this thread.

It seems I have outstayed my welcome here now.I will be at
http//www.islamicboard.com to enjoy a more exempliary, friendly, tollerant, scholastic, historical, excellently researched, academically historical, open-minded, and innovation-free environment of genuine, discovery, learning, dialogue where gentleness and loving speech is encouraged, and totalitarianism is frowned upon.

Salaamu alekum wa rahmatullah wa barakhatahu.
group

Yes, "Sabien" is very problematic. D No sect promotion, and no word games or translated new brand names (capital letters are a western invention), just reviving historical interest.

Please spare me the cryptical we wanted to support his efforts...

No, but we really did. And that is not sarcasm. The struggle was as necessary as parting ways. You have your success!
group
Asalamu aleikum warahmatullah wabarakhatahu

I do not even know what a Sabien is

Maybe its because your spelled it wrongly? D S-A-B-I cerainly you know!. It is someone who has freed their mind from traditions but believes in God ALONE "La ilaha il Allah" in the quest for truth. They disassociate themselves from all sects and don't use the word Muslim (capitol M) as a brand for themselves, but do consider themselves to be muslims (with a small m) inshaallah in the literal meaning of the arabic word you will remember. Likewise they may not follow "I"-slam (the brand) but they do follow "i"-slam (a way of life). The first of the Sabiah Hunafa was Ibraheem (SAW) (confirmed as being a Haneef in the Quran and even the most renowned historical Muslim scholars wrote about this matter). The Bab (who preceeded the Bahai faith) was also an important Sabi. Don't know why everyone adopts Sabi ideas and teachers but then tries to disassociate themselves from the religion. Must be the strict marriage laws.

Ah, the good old days of The Rope & Topica. Tings were really cool back then. Everyone still used to pray 5 times salat, fast for 30 days. Golden times literally. Remember the passion, zeal, enthusiasm, excitement? It is very sad to see muslims leaving the Din as it should be to follow the initial stages of Sibghatullah (sabianism) without realising that it is only supposed to be the first step in leading to the Din!

No offence at all is intended by the info on the website. Layth was a true gentleman. We did not say he is a Sabi only that back then he seemed to be a Sabi who had adopted quietism for his own safety. This is a fair assumption based upon his beliefs documented at the time. I wanted very much to support and help his important efforts, but was not happy about the idea of "progressive muslims".

Brother Layth, at your request of course I will motion to remove this name from the website, and to appologise if necessary, if it has offended you in any way at all.

Salamu aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakhatahu. group

Clearly this does not refer to any Jew/Sabian/Christian, for elsewhere in the Qur'an it very harshly admonishes those who, for example, takes Jesus as the son of God. It says this is tantamount to shirk, an unforgivable sin. So we must conclude that this verse refers to a subset of Jews/Sabians/Christians, namely those whose beliefs are in line with other fundamental Qur'anic precepts, namely true tawhid.

Yes, I would go along with that. We call the latter Sabiah Hunafa while the misguided Sabieen are called Sabiah Mushrikoon.

Salaam

You are right it is not such a simple thing. It is a way of trying to express the idea of a Divine Name. The Name of The Spirit which comes from it. It is the Arabic way of rendering the same idea that is rendered Ton Theon in Greek. In Hebrew the same idea is now rendered HaShem.

There is another possibility.

Salaam all,

Bro AB, could you please translate the arabic articles you posted? My arabic is read only

Good Morning Andy

It is 530 AM sydney time and I promise i will translate it in the bery near future, as i have been flat out, the article is simple refuting the Sabin and Sabun alleged grammar error, and the one who wrote the article is a top class arabic language professional as well a minister in the egyptian government, please be patiet with me and i will translate

Where is this article please? Sabioon and Sabieen is no mistake.

Given the choice of conversion or death, the Harranians chose to be associated with the sabians, wich is interresting, given the position those have in the Quran.

Harranians (i.e. followers of Yazdanism) are Sabiah Mushrikoon, and always have been. They were protected because the Quran did not make a distinction between them and the Sabiah Hunafa so all Sabieen were entitled to pay Jizyah.

Salaam

Islamisist? Me? whatever
No seriously guys you have to do some more reading and less guess-work. This is a good starting place http//63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=49048&dgn=4

Wa salaam

My point about the Israelite Sabioon by pedigree was that it is not necessarily inaccurate to call them (but not all Sabieen) "Jews" (Alatheena Hadoo), since they (but not all Sabieen) did come from that group and (unlike other Sabieen) their menfolk are circumcised.

Wa Salaam.

Jizakallah Khair TAJ,

Not a tribe, but an Ahl. Please do send me the Arabic references. Since the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the Sabi infrastructure has been virtually destroyed. Anything which might assist those of us who remain in restoring that infrastructure is of absolutely vital importance. I should explain that "Sabianism" originally comes from Nooh (SAW) so because of the age of the religion there are bound to be many deviant (Sabiah Mushrikoon) sects of Sabis in the world today, but from what you describe it certainly sounds like these people belong to what we call the Sabiah Hunafa which are basically the rightly guided Sabioon whose predecessors followed Ibrim (Ibrahim SAW) out of Yazidi Arruha. The religions that descend from Sabianism include, of course islam, but also Yazdanism (out of which came the Nasaraeans), Babism, Bahai, and even Magianism to a certain extent. Yes I am a Sabi. I visit free-minds.org because I know there used to be a lot of Sabieen here up until a few years ago, (some were deluded into thinking they are muslims but want to change Islam into Sabianism instead of changing themselves into muslims, others really were converted to real islam and presumeably left sabianism behind) and I am hoping that if any still visit this board that they might be reunited at http//www.sebomenoi.com and join in the mission of reconstituting the Sabi infrastructure.

In Sabiah Hunafa, there are those who are Israelites by pedigree, and those who are from any other nation (like me). Exactly as you have described TAJ, those Sabieen who are israelites (i.e. Eledheena Haadu exactly as you say) by pedigree (Sabioon) only marry amongst themselves, but may also marry women from among the rest of us Sabieen. Their women wear the nikaab. Any man whose mother was a sister from among the Sabioon may also marry from Annisa among the rest of us Sabieen (who do not wear nikaab). Any man whose father was a brother from among the sabieen may also marry from Annisa among the rest of us sabieen. There are more rules with regards to the marriage system, but as to why this system exists, Allahualim. If someone is married when they become Sabieen, then their marriage does not become any problem at all, but if they are not already married, once they become a Sabi, then the marriage restrictions apply to them because they have become what we call Ezwejrasool.

As I say, pleas do send me the details, since it is of vital importance that we contact them and let them know that we still exist.

Jizakallah khair wa salamu aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakhatuh.

Very interested to know more about what you said but could not understand exactly what you meant by this. Do you mean that people there think that they are Sabians? The spelling is quite different though.

Thank you for the links agentx but sadly that site is largely Bogus and is designed to promote the idea that Mandaeans are Sabians so that the Mandaeans can claim sanction of the Shariah state.

http//www.geocities.com/mandaeans/Sabians8.html

Basically the early Arab writers closest to the time of Mohammed who wrote about the Sabians in what could be classified as ancient literature stated their views as follow

Sabiah Hunafa ia (the way of a Haneef) a somewhat disorganised religion (10) following the Din of Noah (1) as a sect who read the Zabur (1,3) akin to Christianity (2). They appear to be between Judaism and Magianism (4) but are in fact closer to Judaism (5). Sabis recognise the practice of The Prophet (SAW) in going to the caves prior to his inspiration, as in accordance with the Sabi quest for Tawheed (6). Because of many similarities with the Sabians, The Prophet (SAW) and his companions were often considered to have been Sabians (7). Most specifically this was because of the Sabians shahada ?La ilaha il Allah? (. Other characteristics of the Sabi religion follow (9). They have five daily prayers (though Zohar joins Asr while Maghrib joins Isha). They know Allah (SWT) as the Lord of lords and GOD of gods. They speak to angels in their meditations which has led to the erroneous beliefs among some that Sabis worship angels. They use the sun for a Qiblah. They fast for 30 days. They believe in all prophets reiterating the religion of Noah and not in the same way as the muslims believe in The Seal of The Prophets.

The root-meaning of the word Sabi means Proselyte, and is identical in usage with the Greek words Sebomenoi or Theosebes and to a lesser extent Phobeomenoi(11).

After the time of the Caliph al-Mamun, Arab writers seem to virtually cease writing about Sabiah Hunafa ia and only wrote about Sabi`ah Mushrikeen.

(1) Khalil ?ibn Ahmad (d. 786-787 AD) who was in Basra before his death, wrote
?The Sabians believe they belong to the prophet Noah, they read Zabur, and their religion looks like Christianity. He also states that they worship the angels.?*

(2) ?Abd ?Allah ?ibn al-?Abbas (lived about 650 AD) wrote
The religion of the Sabians is a sect of Christianity. *

(3) Abul ?Ailya said,
?The Sabis are a sect of people of the Scripture who recite the Zabur.?
?Abu Hanifah (d.767 AD) who is the founder of the Hanafite School of Islamic Law wrote
The Sabians read Zabur and are between Judaism and Christianity. *

(4)?Ibn Abi Nujayh (d749) wrote
The Sabians were between Judaism and Magianism. *

Suddi (d745 AD) also wrote
The Sabian religion is between Judaism and Magianism. *

(5) ?Awza? (d.773 AD) a representative of the ancient Syrian school of religious studies wrote
The Sabians are between Judaism and Christianity. *
Malik ?ibn ?Anas (d795) wrote
The Sabians are between Judaism and Christianity ? *
?Ahmad ?ibn Hanbal (d. 855 AD) the ?Iman of Baghdad wrote
The Sabians are a sect of Christianity or Judaism. *
?Ata ?ibn ?Abi Rabah (d732 AD) wrote
The Sabians live in ?Sawad? and are not identical with the Magians, Christians, or Jews. *

(7) ?Ibn Jurayi (who lived in the 8th century) also wrote
The Sabians are in Sawad and are between the Magians, Christians, or Jews. He also wrote that the polytheists said of Mohammed ?He is a Sabian?. *
?Ibn Jurayi (who lived in the 8th century) wrote
" He (Mohammed) is a Sabian" *
?Abd al-Rahman ?ibn Zayd (d798 AD) wrote
The prophet and his companions are referred to as "these are the Sabians" comparing Mohammed to the Sabians *

( ?Abd al-Rahman ?ibn ?Zayd (d.798 AD) wrote
"The polytheists used to say of the prophet and his companions ?these are the Sabians? comparing them to them, because the Sabians who live Jaziartal-Mawsil (today known as Iraq) would say ?La ilaha il Allah?." *
Rabi?ah ?ibn ?Ubbad (who lived at the same time as Mohammed) wrote
"I saw the prophet when I was a pagan. He was saying to the people, ?if you want to save yourselves, accept that there is no God but Allah? At this moment I noticed a man behind him saying ?he is a sabi.? When I asked somebody who he was he told me he was ?Abu Lahab, his uncle." *
Both ?Ibn Jurayi (d. 767) and ?Ata ?ibn Abi Rabah (d.732) wrote
"I saw the prophet when I was a pagan. He was saying to the people, ?if you want to save yourselves, accept that there is no God but Allah? At this moment I noticed a man behind him saying ?he is a sabi.? When I asked somebody who he was he told me he was ?Abu Lahab, his uncle' Of the relationship between the Sabians who lived in Sawad (in Iraq ) and Mohammed it is mention that the polytheists of Mecca were heard to say of Mohammed "he has become a Sabian." *

(9) Hasan al-Basri (d728 AD) wrote
They read the Zabur and pray in the direction of the qiblah. He also wrote that the Sabian religion resembled the Magians and worshipped angels. *
Qatadah ?ibn Di?amah (d736 AD) wrote
The Sabians worshipped angels, read Zabur, prayed five ritual prayers. In addition he writes that they pray towards the sun. *
?Abdul al-Zanad (d.747 AD) wrote
The Sabians are from ?Kutha? in Iraq, they believe in prophets, fast 30 days in a year, and pray 5 times daily towards Yaman. *
Ziyad ?ibn ?Abihi (d. 672 AD) who was the governor of Iraq during the first Umayyad caliph Mur awiyah wrote
The Sabians believed in prophets and prayed five times daily. *

(10)?Abd al-Rahman ?ibn Zayd (d. 798 AD) wrote
The Sabians say that their religion is a religion to itself and they live near Mosul (jazirat al-mawsil) and believe in only one God. He also wrote that they have ? no cult yet their main belief is ?La ilaha il Allah?. He also remarked that the Sabians did not believe in the Prophet Mohammed (in the same way as his followers did), yet the polytheists were known to say of the Prophets and his companions ?these are the Sabians? comparing them to them. *
Wahb ?ibn Munabbih (d 728-732 AD) who was originally from Iran wrote
The Sabians believe " La ilaha il Allah " but they do not have canonical law. *
Mujahid ?ibn Jarir (d 722 AD) wrote
The Sabians have no distinctive religion and is somewhere between Judaism and Magianism. *

(11)Abu ?Abdultah said
The word saba?a means ?The one who is a Proselyte.?

Bismillah Alrahman Alrahim,

Assalaamu aleikum warahmatullah wabarakhatuh

This Islam Q&A site explanation (http//63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=49048&dgn=4) I can not find much argument with at all, but do not believe everything you read elsewhere like for example Wikipedia site above. We have suffered a lot as a community since the Attack on Afghanistan (There was a great Sabi teacher in Herat under state protection called Abu Yahyah, but we have not heard from him since America invaded), also The infrastructure in Iraq has been totally disabled. Only a few of us are still in loose contact with each other one sabi in Australia one in America, one in India and me in the UK now.

We call ourselves Saabiah Hunafa and we consider ourselves to be of Ibreem/a.k.a.Ibraheem (SAW)'s community. There is a tradition that Abram (SAW)'s father (we call him Terah) was a polytheist, but those who followed Ibreem (SAW) away from polytheism became the Saabiah Hunafa. I am not an Alim by any means, but I can not say that I have ever heard of a polytheistic Sabi as long as I have been a Sabi (which is more than 11 years). We do consider that Muhammad (SAW) was a Haneef just like Ibreem and the rest of us, and we do believe the noble Quran is a revealed book.

There are 6 fundamentals all Sabieen must follow, and these are No idolatry, No lewdity, No blasphemy, No killing, No Stealing, and No Treifah (i.e. Haram food), but there is also one all important positive command and that is to support the establishment of and then submit to a system of Din which enforces (this is my choice of word) these other six fundamentals until such time, should it come around, that this system fails to satisfy this duty, at which point we should strive to re-establish a system of Din which does.

The 7 principles all together constitute the religion that the first Rasool Prophet Nooh (SAW) brought to the world which was forgotten by the world after Yusuf (SAW) until it was revealed again to Moosa (SAW) at mount Sinai for the whole world, through Moosa (SAW and his brother Haroon (SAW) and Moosa's father in law Shuaib (SAW). The religion of Nooh has been reiterated by every prophet since Moosa (SAW). We did not know what the name of the religion was until it was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (SAW).

So why are Sabieen not within the fold of islam? Belief in the prophets (SAW) is not compulsory, and must be based upon an individual's own reasoning or personal experience but I was told that salvation can not really be attained without coming to such a belief. Also we believe that the greatest leader the world will ever know is `Isa Al-Maseeh ibn Maryim. We call Prophet Muhammad (SAW) by the name Abu Al-Qasim (SAW) We do not believe that there ere any more revealed books after The Quran, but do not believe that Wahy has ceased and use the the word mahomet as a title for all who have wahy (which we call ehmet). Of course if someone claims to have Wahy and what they say is not in perfect harmony with what has already been revealed in the previous scriptures, then even if what that person predicts does indeed come to pass, it is irrelevant and that person should be disregarded as a mad, wicked or lying false prophet.

There is a small page on the internet called http//www.sebomenoi.com which has a little more information about the Sabieen which is trustworthy. However there is lots of false information about Sabieen out there the biggest lie being that the the YaziDi and the Mandaean Nasaraeans are Sabians which is a false lie.

The group called the YaziDi follow the same religion that Ibreem's father Terach followed. These are the Harranians. They sometimes try to call themselves Sabians too, but they are certainly not. They are in fact the true and original "Notzrim" or "Watchmen" followers of the fallen angel called ShemYaza. Just like the YaziDi, Mandaeans are gnostics (while in contrast true sabieen do not claim any special knowledge) who do not believe in `Isa (SAW) nor Abu Al-Qasim (SAW) and even if they began as Sabieen their false teachers have put a wall around themselves and have tried to mislead people into a cult. The distinguishing factor in both religions, as well as all religions that derive from them, is that they have degrees of initiation through which their acolytes pass until they reach the Gnosis at the top that they follow ShemYaza.

To a certain extent it could be said that these two groups are the Saabiah mushrikoon, spoken about by the scholars but to allow them to use the name Sabi for themselves at all is to be too liberal. It is better that they be converted to islam than remain in such a cult. They can not call themselves Saabiah Hunafa`.

The only reason Saabiah Hunafa know about these things is because Ibreem (SAW) and his followers came from them and knew their religion, so the inside of their religion is exposed to us. The Prophet Abu Al-Qasim (SAW) knew all this about them very well indeed.

We do believe that we descend from Cain, and we do not try to justify ourselves as descended from Seth. We are repentant and can not be held accountable for the sins of our ancestors. It is wrong for the Saabi`ah mushrikoon to say that they descend from Seth and deny the fact that their ancestor murdered righteous Abel. All we can do is repent from this ancestry. This is where the Christians got their doctrine of original sin from, but they have gone too far in misunderstanding.

I hope this helps
Assalaamu aleikum warahmatullah wabarakhatuh