Ok now I see...things are getting complicated so I will make a simply question. What will happen on Judgement Day or Will everyone be judged on Judgment Day or Who will be judged on Judgment Day?

Well if believers (those who follow God's way) after death enter directly paradise so what about the judgement day ? Where's the sense in that ? What about 6919-20 - it doesnt make any sense

Hi Farida

Seems you have misunderstood everything that I have said !! I never tried to compare Einstein with Muhamed or any prophet I just used his quote to describe "our cataclysm". Please read carefully what I have said before coming to your conclusion.

"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts " has a deeper meaning but I used physical meaning of quote. I was trying to say that we are doing everything just to fit "our theory". We are trying to change the meaning of Quran's words...We are trying to corrupt everything, we are trying to make some absurd changes in islam like not forbidding alchool, changing concept of adultery and fornication, changing number and concept of salat, hajj etc. I just asked if Quran is easy to understand why we are having problem to concept basic Rules of Life (marriage,salat,sex etc) which are supposed to be easy to understand ? And if the answer of this question is "corruption of arabic language - words meaning by scholars and hadiths for more than 1000 years " then whats the point of AQ(159) ? Soaccording to 159, if there's no corruption then where is defect ? Are we trying to find the theory (Quran's rules) or we already have our own theory ? Thats all

Peace

Why should there be a specifc prayer count? This usually is adopted by state theocracies that wants an offical religion thay can control. They wany\t everybody to behave similarly making it easier to control. There is no reason why it should be that way. You are assuming many things you brought with you from the your past. ome may pray more than others, others may give charity more, some may recite the Quran more than others and others might help others and educate others more. Its all about your persoanlity. But you should not make assumption that rituals need to be done the same by everyone.

I'm sorry but I think Ive made a mistake. I forgot to mention "your group". Lets correct my write

"It's not my point ! I'm not saying we should follow hadiths because God says clearly that The Quran is the only book we must follow. But when we follow Quran Alone we are having problems for understanding "easy understanding" words. I'm just trying to find where is the defect or the hole in our situation. Maybe is influence of hadiths for more than 1000 years and arabic language is corrupted but in this case we are breaking 159 - it does not make sense to me. If arabic language is not corrupted how could Muhamed understand Quran without hadiths ?? He was in the same situation like us today (salat 5 times, 4 times ,3 times, 2 times, it doesn't matter (your group)). I think Muhamed had an answer for everything but I don't know how ?? "

By the way is there anything that I could miss in my write ? Any other group ?

But that is valid for any difficult book, for example dense Schopenhauer's work, one understands it accordingly to his knowledge and preparation...
Spiritual guidance, or Book of Instructions for living according to God's Law, on the other hand, should be clear and easy to understand and follow! If it is from God... like the Ten Commandments.

Yes it is easy to understand and its not God's fault. It is our fault because we as quranist are trying to put our own logic on Quran (God's logic). We are not trying to find the theory of God but we are trying to change it. A hadithst is trying to change the facts (Quran) by using hadiths explanation. A Quranist is trying to change the facts by changing Qurans words meaning according to their own logic. Einstein said " If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts ". The problem is that we are creating the theory before searching the facts (Quran). And our theory is based on our own logic. People the problem is WE ARE HAVING TROUBLE ACCEPTING THE REALITY or we just dont like the reality. As I said if Qurans forbid sex before marriage we should not commit it. If we already have done sex before marriage we should ask forgiveness from God. Are we doing it ? No - instead asking forgiveness we are trying to change the facts to make our self feel more comfortable. This is why God mention many times word "forgive" in Quran. In science first step is searching for the facts and the second is creating theory. In Sunni and Shia (hadithists) first step is searching for facts in hadiths, the second is correcting facts in Quran according to hadiths and the third is creating the theory( law in islam). In Quranism the first step is creating the theory and the second is searching for the facts that "support" the theory and the third if there are no facts we change them- we create them. So instead of God's theory (true law) we have our own theory.

You mentioned why ten commandments are clear and easy to understand ? This is because everyone would agree not to kill children but not everyone would agree that sex before marriage is forbidden.

I really like how you corrected my horrible post there )

I did correct nothing ) I just put bold on your best words which explained our situation

I believe my failings in understanding the Quran stems from my diseased heart, me not being pure enough, rather than the Book somehow being at fault. Have you ever considered this possibility for yourself?

Read my answer http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604192.10 reply nr 10. Is that your point ?

Salaam,

You have a point. There ARE rituals that we perform...wudhu being the one that stands out most in my mind. We clean before every prayer. So we can't say that they ALL are unimportant.

Amina

Peace scaredmuslimah

If you check Good logic point you'll figure out that in Quran are unimportant things. This is wrong. Every word is important and every word which describe rituals like salat, marriage etc is supposed to be easy to understand.

I have read Bigmo's post, but I'm not necessarily talking about rituals though. As you yourself pointed out, submission to the Creator is central. Anyone who falsely make things up about the Lord, or perpetuates lies others have made up about Him(*), is surely in error and not in submission to the expressed will of Allah at all, despite all claims to the contrary.

(* or His prescribed deen, or His books, prophets, messengers etc...)

Peace Magnus

I totally agree with you

Peace Magnus.

I also hapen to agree with Bigmo. Please read his post. Rituals are not the most important things in " Deen". Submission to the Creator is.

Peace.

Peace Good logic

Maybe rituals are not the most important things "in deen" but ritual are IMPORTANT. I know that the most important things are God alone, Quran alone, not killing etc, but come on... Rituals, marriage are our elements of good/bad life. And God sent Quran to make a good life for us. How can be our life good if we don't understand Quran words about elements of a good life ? Do you understand that we are missing the point ? According to Quran there is only one truth - only one way of good life. Yes we can commit pornography or fornication and we can say we are happy and we have a good life. But for God this is not good life. Every possible path is wrong except the right path and the right path is written in Quran. Thats all

You are trying to folow the Quran the same way you were following Sunni Islam or Shia Islam. You seem to think that rituals are a goal of their own when in fact its a means to an end. This is whay Paul in the Gospel struggled with the Law since he came from a Pharisaic background and assumed that everything had to be ritualistic and legalistic. Many Quranist who cme from Islamic or Judaic background find themselves looking for some form of ritualism which they assume is how religions should be understood. There is no evidence from the Quran that such should be the case. Rituals are a means to an end. A person can jog, swim, play tennis or do something else to excercise. He can do it everyday or every other day. He can spend half an hour or tow hours when he trains. He can even do a combination of excercising. The goal is to be fit. The same with rituals in the Quran. There is no right way or wrong way as how Muslims understand it.

It's not my point ! I'm not saying we should follow hadiths because God says clearly that The Quran is the only book we must follow. But when we follow Quran Alone we are having problems for understanding "easy understanding" words. I'm just trying to find where is the defect or the hole in our situation. Maybe is influence of hadiths for more than 1000 years and arabic language is corrupted but in this case we are breaking 159 - it does not make sense to me. If arabic language is not corrupted how could Muhamed understand Quran without hadiths ?? He was in the same situation like us today (salat 5 times, 4 times ,3 times). I think Muhamed had an answer for everything but I don't know how ??

well maybe you need to define what is so basic about basic?
if you define marriage as basic, Allah SWT has questioned it when he revealed to the world the concept of 3eesa AS..
maybe you need to have a paradigm shift..

wallahua3lam

I define marriage as basic because it define our life in this life and in next life. With marriage you just start a new chapter of your life. God sent Quran to us to make a good life for us. Marriage, salat, dress code etc are basic elements of a good life. If God sent Quran and other scriptures to make a good life for us than why basic elements of a good life are not easy to understand ? If marriage is not basic what could be more basic than marriage ? Even a non-muslim would agree about it. If marriage is part of "not easy understanding" verses than what could be part of "easy understanding" verses ?

Peace to all

w/salaam,

I disagree with you on your 1st paragraph.

I, in part, agree with you on the 2nd paragraph. The forum rule 2 was changed a while back resulting in more leeway when people discuss Quran. I disagreed with the rule change but I am only an admin/moderator not the forum owner. Since I have been a member of the forum for a long time, I do think standards have declined over the years but whether that is soley down to the rule change, I doubt it, but certainly it has a part to play.

Do you think that God (37) is talking about BASIC RULES ? If BASIC RULES (marriage, salat etc) are hard to understand then what is easy to understand ?

a) IF BASIC RULES = EASY TO UNDERSTAND then problem is within us or... I don't know
b) IF BASIC RULES = HARD TO UNDERSTAND then the same was for Muhamed. So Hadiths are word of God. But it cant be true because God says clearly QURAN ALONE

When you said you disagree with 1st paragraph can you tell me exactly why do you disagree ? Which point ?

peace truthsearcher, all,

Your questions/thinking is quite a common reaction, i.e. it is thought about and often asked by others.

Since I have been a forum member for almost 10 years and have been studying Quran for roughly the same time, I will share my thoughts.

Firstly, please bear in mind verse 37. This seems to be an under appreciated verse. It's message is very powerful. Please ponder upon it.

Secondly, please do not compare like with unlike. For example, you list quite a number of different views, but be careful you do not confuse the wheat with the chaff. If you ask yourself how many of those views actually have a detailed article behind them? You will suddenly find the number of variant views reducing dramatically.
Now, once the list of variance is reduced, ponder upon what the differences would be in a practical manner. Usually, the variance, whilst still there, is again reduced.

And lastly, from my studies of Quran, it does seem it placed an emphasis on unity on the core beliefs/laws. If a society has these, how relevant are the rest? If your next door neighbour is law-abiding and righteous but believes one must do cartwheels and handstands in their timed salat - how much does that matter? What if they are law-abiding and righteous but believe their cat is their God - how much does that matter?

Please ponder.

Thanks.

Dear Wakas

Yes I know 37 and I think it is talking about "mysterious things" mentioned in Quran. For example we still don't know what is spirit, we don't have a clear concept about jinns (their nature, life), we don't know meaning of 675, we don't know meaning of seven heavens (we just can make a hypothesis about it) and there are many other "not easy understanding" verses. Do you think that God would make us hard to understand BASIC RULES of islam like marriage or salat? This doesn't make sense to me. Do you think that Muhamed didn't know how to pray because Qurans doesn't have a clear concept about it ? Or do you think that Muhamed didn't know if 100 lashes is punishment for adultery or fornication or public sex or whatever ? We are talking here about BASIC RULES that determine our life and these rules are supposed to be easy to understand. As a Quranist how would you describe your "religion" to an atheist ? "Yes there are people who pray 5,4,3,2 times a day and it is on your will to choice it". I think that Quranists are making Islam look ridiculous in front of nonbelievers.

And as for the second...Moderators I think it could be your fault for all of this . I am not saying that you should deny free think and free write. But moderators - you may have underestimated the fact that in this forum there are many people who want just to confuse the others. I think the solution is not deleting the others posts, just at the end of every topic write "topics conclusion " based on your and the others view.

Peace to all

It is all written already there, that's why I sent you the link )

I'm sorry but I don't have much time to read all of this. So write here "contradict verses" one by one and we'll discuss

Please, do check this as well

http//www.thetruthshall.com/HolyKoranAndFacts.htm

If you have anything unclear about Quran and if you think that there are many contradict verses post here

Thank you @truthsearcher for your answer.

I also believed that Qur'an might be from God , specially because of the number 19 code, and some vague scientific proofs.

But you see, the Rabbis also new all those things some thousand years before Muhammad and the Qur'an, and it is written in he oral law (Mishna, Gemara, etc), it's there for everybody to check. They knew the number of stars, and the exact decimal of days of the renewal of the Moon etc etc, way before telescopes and NASA. Maybe Muhammad got it from those books as well, and perhaps Rabbis got it from Egyptians, who knows? There are many things that are not easily exposed to general public.
If you have time, watch the three part video

http//www.divineinformation.com/featured-videos/torah-and-science-2/
http//www.divineinformation.com/videos-english/torah-and-science-part-2/
http//www.divineinformation.com/videos-english/torah-and-science-part-3/

You will be surprised and amazed if you have patience to watch it all.

God bless

Lets suppose that Muhamed take science information from Rabis and Rabis from Egyptians. And remember we are talking about 2000 years ago. I dont deny the fact about great scientist among Egyptians but 2000 years ago was a time when all science was based in hypothesis - that means egyptians werent 100% correct about science. There were many stupid hypothesis about science but also there were correct hypothesis. And everything that has to do with science already mentioned in Quran is 100% scientifically correct. Let suppose that he had luck when he chose to put verses about shape of earth. But what about the other verses which are scientifically correct. What about "non-existing verses" that probably could contain stupid science information, why he didnt put those in Quran, how did he know which hypothesis are correct and which are false. We can say that Muhamed had luck and everything in Quran was result of coincidence but do you know how do science call this kind of coincidence ? It has a name MIRACLE. And yes Quran is Miracle and Miracle come from God

Peace

Thank you @truthsearcher for starting this thread!

I am almost in the same situation as you are, specially because I came from Judeo -Xtian background and embraced Islam about 2 years ago, accepting it as taught by Mr. Rashad Khalifa, PhD.
Now I am at the verge to abandoning Islam altogether, mostly because of diverging opinions and versions, and I also think that the Truth is only one!

You see, the problem is, that after Moses, NOBODY ever, never, spoke to God one to one!
NO-ONE ever heard the voice of God anymore!
Even the first one to substitute after Moses, Joshua, was in deep trouble with many issues etc. So, I think the first and the original message is Torah, and there is no contradiction in the commandments and instructions. Qur'an's main function is to confirm it and remind of it.
Maybe some people heard messages through intermediaries, like through Gabriel (Mary and Mohammad) or some prophets, but they were always alone, no witnesses to that! Unlike when all of Israel heard the voice of God, about million people present!. That was the only event in history, once and only. Never repeated. Now, messengers, like Gabriel etc, are just second layer, it is not the direct Word from God!
@Good logic pointed out well some things... but the problem is that even if "ask God for guidance", He is not going to speak to us, simply because there was never again anyone like Moses who heard the voice of God and stayed alive!
The "answer" we might "get", might be just our imagination, as with many other people, who then started more then 8000 cults and new religions (Islam included!)

I can say Quran is 100% word of God. Everyone has owns argument for it but I'll tell you how I realize that Quran is word of God. If we look carefully we see that Quran talks about "expanding universe", "embryo like leech", "earth shape", "big bang" etc. All first mentioned in Quran 1400 years ago and discovered 100-200 years ago. How could Muhamed know all of these ? Of course He was inspired by God and that how I argument my word Quran is 100% word of God. So Islam is not one of "humans mind religion" because of Qurans arguments on science. Don't doubt about it !!!

I never said that Quran is not the word of God. I said that we are having trouble to understand "easy words of God" and of course is 100% our fault. Im just trying to figure out where is the hole in all of this. We know, this is all our fault but when did we start walking the wrong way? Who started it ?

Godsubmiter thanks for your answer. My advice to you is YOU SHOULD NEVER DOUBT ABOUT Quran. Quran came from Muhamed and Muhamed was inspire from God. Thats all

Peace

Peace truthsearcher.

I understand your frustration and I share your concern. but do not panic!

If GOD willed to make us one united community, HE could have done it. However this will eliminate the trial .(freedom of choice.)

Now the main message is " Total submission and loyalty to GOD Alone." ,this means that we have to trust in GOD Alone for our way of life.

The most important things in life are called commandments.These are absolutely clear in " the detailed book" let me quote

6151 Say? Come let me tell you what your Lord has prohibited for you( GOD s words, not mine or anybody else!)You shall not set up idols beside HIM,( Do not follow man made rules that claim are from GOD!) You shall honour your parents.You shall not kill your children from fear of poverty.We provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins obvious or hidden. ( Your creator has put the instinct in you to tell between right and wrong!) You shall not kill. GOD has made life sacred.Except in the course of justice.These are HIS commandments to you that you may understand.?

6152You shall not touch the orphan s money except in the most righteous manner, until they reach maturity.You shall give full weight and full measure when you trade, equitably.We do not burden any soul beyond its means.You shall be absolutely just when you bear witness, even against your relatives ( or yourself!) You shall fulfil your covenant with GOD. ( To uphold HIS authority. ALONE no idols!) These are HIS commandments to you, that you may take heed.?

6153This is My path, a straight one, do not follow any other paths, lest they divert you from HIS path.These are HIS commandments to you ,that you may be saved.?

Notice how GOD did not add anything else here deliberately. We are all individuals and we serve/follow/worship GOD in our diverse ways.

So I would not worry about what views others hold on Salat, Zakat, Hajj,... I would uphold the Authority of GOD Alone. Then I would keep on trusting on GOD to show me the truth. With patience and perseverance and after a hard trial GOD promises that we attain certainty.

So brother , trust on GOD to guide you to HIS truth, Keep studying the Qoran and keep doing what you are doing now for your salat,zakat,... Only change when you see clear evidence to do so and keep seeking help from your Lord.

Peace.

Good logic ! Remember that God says "easy to understand". There are 6346 verses in Quran and I don't think that God was talking only for his commandments. God was referring whole Quran with some exception (spirit, jinn, dreams etc). And the words "easy to understand" and "We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)" are key words in this topic. Not only in this topic but in our life. And every word, every verse has been sent for a reason. And every word is sent to define our "fate" in next life. Also every word is sent to define "our fate" in this life, our way of life. God didn't send Quran only to teach us that there is One God, One book. God sent it, because He wanted to see our life respectful (marriage, sex, pray etc.). And as I said we are having trouble to understand MAJOR RULES - those which are supposed to be "easy to understand", I guess. I don't know, but I think I have found an explanation. Not the prefect one but it explain many things

Anyone on here remember Albert Einstein ? He used to say "If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts". Of course this word has a deeper meaning but let analyze our work of understanding the Quran. The problem are WE. When we try to determine for example "sex before marriage" we don't search Qurans arguments. We search our arguments that are in our mind before starting looking for answers in Quran. So let suppose that we have done sex before marriage or we would like to do. So we start our theory and our theory is based in our mind because of our consciousness. At this point our consciousness say to us You have done the right thing - you are in the right way. And this is point when everything starts. We make our theory and when we find that our theory doesn't fit with facts (Quran=facts), we start "to change" the facts - that means we start to change meaning of arabic word or we start to check only for words that "fit the theory". This is what I think about all of this trouble

Maybe it doesn't explain everything but I think that it explain something...

Peace to all

Where did you find it ? In which verse ?