http//www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1339688/Why-dont-Britains-rich-charity-like-wealthy-Americans.html

An article (albeit from the DailyMail) highlighting this fact. The UK is far deeper entrenched in social democracy than America.

There was only one politician willing to talk about the REAL issues back in 2008, and he is at it again in 2012 - and that's Ron Paul.

It is amazing the support he is now garnering from college students and other young people. I think many of them are disillusioned Obama supporters like yourself.

Hope you agree Ron Paul's our man this coming election.

Hey there,

I'm not American, but I have been reading up a lot about Ron Paul and, in my opinion, if America does not vote him in as President, we will have another war on our hands. He is the only consistent candidate thats not in the pockets of the Wall Street corporations. A true libertarian (finally) - Milton Friedman would be proud. Insha'allah I hope he will be elected. I agree with you completely.

(the problem is, a lot of Americans don't have time for these ideas. Santorum? Romney? Gingrich (lol)? If they are elected, it will be more of the same + war with Iran)

Stilllearning

You will find in practice the more individuals have the least they are likely to give to charity.

Do you have facts for this? Because, as far as I can see, plenty of rich people to charity. Just look at bill gates, brad pitt angelina jolie etc etc. They give massive amounts of time and money to charity. I would need to see definitive statistics. If you were to do a search on google, you will find documentation that the "poor give a higher percentage of their wealth" than the rich. However, I don't think this is really enough to judge from.
I don't know about this though - you may be correct.

Those that consider themselves socialist would argue to the contrary that socialism is the ultimate form of freedom as it enables the individuals to enjoy the fruits of their own labour and not be slaves to a master who is no more than a parasite living of their creation (not my definition).

Yes, enjoy the fruits of your labour until the government steals 40% of your income to subsidise other industries, other individuals and their own wallets. Sounds very "free". Actually, the very simplest form of "enjoy the fruits of your labour" would be exactly the libertarian philosophy. The government takes as little as possible of your money, and you spend the wealth generated by your labour on whatever you want. You want to spend all that money on heroin? Great, go ahead. It's a stupid decision, but it's yours. You want to spend it on your child's welfare and personal matters. Great, good for you.

THAT is freedom, not the illusion that socialism offers.

Do you not think the less fortunate deserve little bit more predictable to rely on than the unpredictable nature of other individuals charity.

You don't think that if your income was not taxed by 40% (approx) that you would not give more to charity?

This is the robin hood myth. The idea that we can take from everyone in order to help the poor is, in my opinion, the most misguided economic idea. Government schools, government housing, the minimum wage - all of these are state initiatives funded by the taxpayer - and almost every one has been an abject failure in whatever context.

Government housing essentially further divides the community and concentrates the poor and unemployed, benefit-dependant people in one single place. This then encourages a sub-culture of crime. We see these examples all around us.

I am not questioning your intentions. Everyone - marx, keynes, hayek, friedman - all have good intentions. However, the implementation of these is, under a socialist ideology, hugely misguided.

Salaam Someone,

in law a man or woman who needs another to make decisions or represent them are seen in the law as mentally incompetent, a child is not competent to deal with their own affairs, so the parent takes on the responsibility of knowing what is best for the child.

Democracy is not lawful, it is a trick to fool the stupid into thinking they are a part of the system upon them, but in truth that system is designed by the accumulated wealth elite and functions solely for their benefit.

Exactly. The greatest conspiracy in the world is that politicians and presidents are not legally required to uphold their manifestos and can completely disregard their mandates when in power.

Just thinking about Obama and how he appointed Larry Summers and Ben Bernake as his financial advisors (people who cause the meltdown) makes my blood boil.

I stayed up all night to watch that guy get inaugurated. I honestly thought the world was going to change.

What a joke.

As long as there is a majority is unlearned/uneducated people, I think that no system can improve their situation on the long term. The only way is to diffuse knowledge and help people emancipate, to be able to defend their rights without forgeting to always work towards the common wellness. I think this is the message of al-quran to "ahl alkitab" the learned.

Hey there,

That's an interesting idea. What I would say is why should people have to be learned and educated? I mean, the common man/woman, with an incredibly busy lifestyle trying to balance so many things, cannot be expected to be educated on the complexities of the economy and foreign policy (especially in the joke of democracy we have now where 90% of candidates say the same thing).

However, what has been proven time and time again, is that people are incredibly well-educated when it comes to their own lives. People make thought out decisions depending on their own situation and the situations of those close to them.

That's why a socialist state is such an abhorrent idea to me (note that I used to be a massive socialist until I read libertarian works of Friedman and Hayek) The fact that a socialist state would act on your behalf as though it knows what is best for you is, in my opinion, the biggest fallacy in the system. PEOPLE know what is best for them. If we leave them to it, perhaps we could get on with our lives.

So when you say "common wellness", I'm not sure what you mean. What is the common wellness? Is it the utilitarian ideal of "the greatest happiness for the greatest number"?

Thanks

The Quran promotes a democratic socialist society!

Peace,
Edip

How so?

Some people have so much land when some have none, some have so much food and some have none. All the sitting (if not spent in vain) excess money in the world (by the rich, religious organizations, etc.) could help many in need if everyone helped. I do not represent a political system, I only represent what is right.

So where does the incentive for production come from?

One thing that is for certain is that Capitalism would not be accepted in Islam whatsoever. Capitalism is all about the profit instead of the well being of the whole. I can't help but to shake my head at the misguided Christian Americans who claim America, the largest Capitalist country in the world, is also a Christian one when Jesus would not have supported Capitalism in any type of way. He chased the merchants out of the temple!

I think this is an over-simplification and caricaturing of an economic system.

In fact, I think that socialism would be, ideologically and economically, the most antithetical system to Islam. Socialism is inherently coercive with nationalised industries and a huge all-encompassing state that has overwhelming control over the distribution of wealth and resources. That sounds terrible to me.

I love how people say that socialism has an intrinsically positive view of human nature with its belief in the community, when socialism is essentially based upon the coercion of others and a fundamental belief that people don't know what is good for them.

"Everyone is equal, some are just more equal than others." Socialism masquerades under a facade of equality. At least capitalism realises that equality cannot exist in its system and people are rewarded on their productivity (at least, that is the goal.)

Anyway, libertarianism seems, to me, the most viable economic system that would tie in with Islamic ideas of authority and charity.

Thanks

EDIT Sorry, Gnosis, this might seem like a tirade against you but it is not, more of a general reply. Just read what you said about anarchism and I would agree with you, but not on your view of capitalism. Cheers!)

Hey guys,

sorry to butt in here. I know most of you have probably stopped checking the SF thread, however the discussion is still ongoing haa. I am at uni at the moment so don't have too much time to answer the good and valid questions that they are now posting. Just a heads up, if you do check the thread, obviously feel free to post there or post here and I will try and make that point. Here is the thread again. (I don't know but I feel like we have got to a point in the discussion where both sides are listening to each other. So it would be good if you guys, because you are way more knowledgable than me, to pop in some advice. No worries if you can't!!!)

Here's the thread again.

http//www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?79213-Why-do-you-believe-in-hadith

PS, here is something I saw on the forum http//www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?79157-Women-working-problem-of-divorce-polygamy-and-some-other-issues/page28

see post 276. I just think that such rules against women are so archaic and patriarchal and outdated. I just felt so sorry for strict sunni women when I read this - I don't mean that in a patronising way - just in a logical one. How can somebody saying such things about your gender not bring you down?

Again, sorry for butting in.

PS Indelwyn, do you know the quote for that hadith you mentioned. Could be useful. Thaanks

Cheers,

Their replies are simply questions posed to our own question. They have not answered anything yet. However, I can't think of anything that will stump them. Any ideas?

By the way, anyone who is watching this thread, it would be good (if you have time) to post on here some refutations to any of the sunni posts that you believe are, in particular, infringing upon logic/the Qur'an/whatever.

However, I don't think they will be listening to us for much longer I'm afraid.

Thanks,

Ty

haha how about this gem that I was just replied with

"As for your question, you are ignorant of how the hadeeth were preserved- ignorant of the glorious memory of the Arabs, ignorant all the way through- indeed, your compound ignorance is quite disconcerting."

The glorious memory...over two+ centuries. Over many generations. Over the very minutiae of personal life.

I do not think it is possible to get through to people so entrenched in their views. However, like belh said, we can hope to at least open the minds of some people stalking the forums who are on the fence.

Jafar, I don't think I could ask them that question, it might get too heated!

http//www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?79284-Shortening-Eyebrow-Hair/page1

brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall

QUOTE OF THE DAY
"however there is a difference in opinion in this regard. speak to a scholar in you area. but Nabi SAWS did curse the one who plucks."

I think they are getting alarmed because so many of us are causing lots of dameges to their arrguments. Thank you to everyone supporting this effort.
Trust me, every thing we post in their website are read by others whom God wants to guide.

Belh I'm meant to be doing my work! I have an assignment tomorrow and it's 2am! haha, I just have to keep checking that forum. Looks like we can't post though, they're getting suspicious about the number of new members.

Correction It's actually
That dude said he heard it from 'fulan' (May God Bless His Soul) who heard it from another 'fulan' (May God Bless His Soul) who heard it from another 'fulan' (May God Bless His Soul) who heard it from another 'fulan' (May God Bless His Soul) that one of Mohammad (May God Bless His Soul)'s companion named 'fulan' (May God Bless His Soul) said...

rotfl rotfl

Yup.. it's a hadith about the one who collected the hadith..
You should ask your classmate regarding the chain of narration of that hadith about the one who collected the hadith.

INCEPTION o A dream within a dream...

The question that comes up again and again (and on the sunni forum that is heating up now) is that soooo many scholars have come to the conclusion about the hadiths legitimacy. How can so many scholars be wrong?

To be honest, this baffles me too. How can so many people not have seen the most obvious thing. (occams razor).

Ok that thread is doing my head in. brick wall

S.S94, I'm coming in!

Apologies in advance if I say something stupid ha.

The thing that gets under my skin is the statement that crops up time and time again on the sunni forums

"science of the hadith

Are they for real? Apparently a body of contradictory laws and an amalgam of personal stories that were collated centuries after the event and passed on through chains of people is science apparently.

It's interesting. After CERN posted their findings on the neutrino being faster than the speed of light, they had their results tested agin and again, and then tested once more by peer review. THAT is science.

I know it's different and the analogy is tenuous, but there is a point there. Science is not Oh yeah, that dude said this and he heard it from that other dude and I know that guy, he's chill, so I'm pretty sure it's all good.

Have you guys heard of the "story" that sunni's tell when asked about the "science of hadith"? Bukhari once went to interview a man about a particular hadith. He saw him in the distance wrestling with his horse, who was being stubborn. In order to entice the horse, the man pretended to take an apple from his bag and managed to get the horse to calm down a bit. There was no apple. Bukhari saw this 'lie' and therefore knew that the man was not trustworthy enough to interview. Thus science o (apparently)

(This story was told to me by a classmate who was taking all science subjects and studying to be a doctor. He too, was under the belief that this act was equal to some kind of "science&quot

Bukhari, not Muhammad, has become the "messenger" to too many people.

End rant.

Hi Amica,

First of all, I'd like to say that debate is a healthy thing. Questioning the faith and constantly challenging entrenched notions is good and, in my opinion, strengthens the faith. The people on that forum were quick to call people kuffar and throw insults around in, and here's the worst part, the name of Islam.

That's what bothers me. In the name of Islam.

If we don't argue for what we believe in, then what's the point? Are we meant to keep our faith to ourselves, hoping that someone may come along and have the same views as us? Further, the arguments laid out to the people of sunniforum from those of this forum were perfectly civil and contained no insults, merely steps of logic. I fail to see anything wrong in this, and in fact I would encourage it.

Finally to your point about non-muslims hating "us", why do you think that is? Did you read the thread concerning the death of apostates? Some of the things written there shocked me. People proclaiming that Islam is a religion of peace and beauty, and in the very next sentence they would say that yes, someone must be killed according to Islamic law if they turn away from Islam.

"Islamic law".

People hate us because of these bloodthirsty, hypocritical and downright archaic "laws" that have been conjured by the populace. Unfortunately, extreme views tend to blot out those of sane ones.

The one true service we can provide globally is striving for unity, regardless of our differences. And good always wins.

With all due respect, I refuse to stand by someone who thinks that a person should be killed for apostasy. I refuse to stand by someone who thinks a woman should be stoned to death for adultery. I refuse to stand by someone who forces women to wear a hijab. I refuse to stand by someone who labels those who argue against them as kuffar.

Perhaps this does not make me a very good muslim, but I just can't bring myself to do it.

Yup.. that's how they work. Disagree?? Kuffar!!
Please understand that they're being brainwashed since they were a little toddler.. and within the back of their mind they have this 'fear' of being 'converted from the religion of truth' and being 'condemned to hell for all eternity', IF they agree to your idea.

I was born Sunni thus I know them very well..

But of course not all sunnis are like that.. some of them does 'think straight'.

Salam / Peace

I was born sunni too, Jaffar, and my family still is, although fairly "liberal" (even though I hate that term because it suggests that they're just not good muslims). Entrenched ideas take a lot of time and effort to come free, you're right.

Peace all,

this thread is fun

http//www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?79213-Why-do-you-believe-in-hadith

Pleace come and join.
Thanks

I might join you, although I am worried about taking it too far and they may just kick us out. I think you're right - we have to be a little sneaky and put forward our arguments through clear logic. Thanks for the heads up!

Lol I posted many times on that exact same thread. The vast majority of Sunnis on that site support capital punishment for apostates, shocking but not surprising (for me at least being a former Sunni).

Can you guess who I am on that thread?

Hey Pak!

Are you Joshimitsu? or Kasinova? haha, I haven't read the whole thread yet though!

And to those who did not accept the execution law, they're kuffar! they're renegade!! we execute them!
That's why it remain unanimous!

Islam is a religion of love and peace!
All humankind unanimously accept that!
And for those who did not accept, we need to execute them!
As thus it shall remain unanimous!

Absolutely right, and yet, if we were to try and show them the circular logic, I doubt it would work as they would simply label us as kufar!

After reading this thread I'm worried about sharing my own views with the islamic society of the university i just joined. I hope that they will be more open-minded than the people on this forum. Some of this stuff about apostasy is seriously making me feel depressed. (

http//www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?77928-Do-you-believe-apostasy-deserves-the-death-penalty

A Quote

"The religion of Islam is the most perfect and complete religion. The laws of Islam are flawlessly designed by Allah. These laws of Islam are for the benefit and of mankind.

Islam induces unity and always condemns division and sects.

Once a person accepts Islam, he sees its beauty and perfection. If after seeing the beauty of Islam, a Muslim turns away from it, it means he turned away from perfection towards imperfection, disassociating himself from the unity of the Muslims ummah towards a way that is unacceptable by Allah.

Allah always wishes good for His servants. By one accepting Islam, he will be Insha Allah entitled to paradise. However, after accepting Islam, one turns renegade, it means he has become entitled to Jahannam (Hell). This is not what Allah wishes for His servants. To prevent more people from becoming true candidates of the fire of Hell, Allah legislated a deterrent for it, i.e. the law of execution.

This law of executing the renegade is a unanimously accepted rule according to all Muslims."

wow wow wow wow

I am actually in shock at the moment. I have never met sunni's like this. Such hypocrisy...

How did it come to this?

http//www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?79124-Steve-Jobs-What-did-he-give-the-world

http//assets.sbnation.com/assets/562900/facepalm_medium.jpg

I think what's so depressing to me is how easily they can throw around the words "kafir" and how someone will "have no place in the afterlife". I can't believe it.