Don`t know whether or not there have been female messengers, but would just like to mention that the Old Testament (Bible) mentions prophetesses like Miriam (the sister of Moses and Aaron, not the mother of Jesus) and Ruth (I think) and others...

Can I just say something? It doesnt really have to do with the quran, matters of translation etc. But it seems to me that polygamy (polyandry, call it what you will MUST be allowed in very LIMITED circumstances. This is because, as far as I know, at any given time, the ratio of men to women is more or less equal. Lets not forget that the quran provides a WORLD view. More male babies are born than female ones, but more male babies tend to die than female ones (males are physiologically weaker than females) so that at around 1-5 years of age, the ratio of males to females becomes more or less equal. In peacetime in any nation, the ratio of males to females is equal. During wartime, females may slightly outnumber men for obvious reasons but at no point does the female population become DOUBLE, let alone triple or quadruple, than that of men. If polygamy (or polyandry) were allowed in all circumstances (and assuming a man can marry upto 4 women) then the ratio of women to men should have been 41 !!! Otherwise, you are promoting the view that only a minority of men can marry (for they will be marrying the women that make up other men`s "share" so to speak, and the rest have to do without marriage.

The fact is that the population of women only exceeds that of men by a slight degree in times of war etc. It doesn`t even become DOUBLE that of men, in which scenario men could marry up to TWO women and not more than that, let alone become triple or more!

Thanks for the messages, guys. What you said makes sense, but it still seems to me that if there are so many meanings for each (or almost each) word of the Qur'an, how do we know which of the meanings is the right one? Everyone will come up with what s/he thinks is the best meaning, but there'll be no agreement on what the right meaning is in the context.

Just as an aside, I have Muhammad Asad's translation of the Qur'an (it's the only one I've read actually) (I don't know Arabic) and it makes a lot of sense to me. I was at peace with it. I'm beginning to get confused now, when I read other interpretations on the Free-minds website. It's beginning to seem to me (and maybe it's just me) that all the words in the Quran have all kinds of meanings and we cannot be sure what they mean in the context. Look at this thread on polygamy! -\ I don't know what to think! confused Oh, and one more thing, ALL the meanings of the Quran over the past thousand and some years can't have been wrong! What makes us so sure we're on the right track?

Sorry. Just needed to vent...

My God! From all this, it seems to me that the Qur'an, which is supposed to be clear and without contradictions, is totally UNCLEAR and open to all kinds of interpretations! So how in the world are we supposed to know what God meant and what the right thing is?

Just a comment. Sorry. But this is frustrating and confusing!

I reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly doubt that hell is eternal, at least for 99.999999999999% of the people. As you said, and as it says in the Koran like a bagillion gigllioion times, god is most merciful. And I am positive that All people of the book with good intentions will eventually rise out of hell. I guess the only advantage muslims have is getting out of hell earlier than the rest.

What zubairh said makes sense and I`m inclined to agree with him but the words translated in the Quran as "forever" are what pose a problem...

I also agree with Alen. I don`t want to end up in hellfire just to find out how long it is either!

Salaam, Alen,

Whoa there! I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say that criminals/evil people should NOT be punished. OF COURSE, they should be punished! Recently, I happened to be reading about the murders and abuse of certain children and that made me angry! Those murderers DO deserve hell! And they should burn for what they did! For a very, very long time!

That wasn't the point. I don't know how long the men you talked about should be punished (in the afterlife, that is). Only God knows that so I can't answer that. But I assume your suffering is over now? I don't know, but it'll come to an end sometime, right? So the culprit's suffering should come to an end (even after an "eternity" in the afterworld). At least, that's how I feel, because punishing him for MORE than his crimes deserve becomes unfair itself, doesn't it?

I hope you understand my point. Maybe, I'm not articulating it correctly. Sorry if it seemed I suggested evil should NOT be punished...

Wow! Thanks for all the replies. A lot of different opinions out there. Phoenix also seems to have a problem with eternal hell like I do. I haven't got around to reading all the recommended articles but I certainly will soon.

I understand that the concept of eternity is not something humans can understand, us being finite beings with finite minds and not infinite beings able to grasp the concept of infinity and eternity. I believe the descriptions of heaven, hell, angels, jinn etc in the Quran to be metaphorical for we cannot understand those concepts in this life because we haven't experienced anything that comes remotely close to them.

But to quote TheNabi,

By "eternal" I take it that there has been no beginning. In other words God has had to always been .

How can hell be eternal? It had to have a beginning, right? It couldn't have existed forever. Only God exists eternally.

I know the Quran talks about people being in hell forever but this still doesn't jibe with me for the reasons I stated in my first post. God also says somewhere in the Quran (I don't know where) that He rewards with more than what a person is due but punishes with only what a person deserves and not more than that.
Am I right?

So existing forevermore in a state of hell seems contradictory. At some point or the other, a person would have "paid for his sins" (so to speak) and then remaining in a state of hell would become "unfair", don't you think?

And I do know that only God knows what absolute and correct justice is and we don't, but I can't get my head round this eternal hell business...

Quote from Wakas
Are you implying you see no rationale, benefit, reasoning etc in these laws? Or just not enough to justify them in your mind?

I see no rationale in those laws. Not just justifying in my mind, but just no rationale what-so-ever in the 100 lashes. Say some individual is punished with 100 lashes, then what next?? Either that person is not going to commit again, for fear of the lashes, or that person is going to be more careful when committing that same act.

Where is the moral justification behind the 100 lashes?? How does it teach the individual that it is wrong? What reason are the 100 lashes providing to say to the individual, this is why it's wrong??

This doesn't make any sense to me. Are you implying that a crime shouldn't be punished because it may not have the desired result? So, for example, a murderer shouldn't be jailed if imprisoning him is not going to reform him and he may commit another murder when he is free?

Also, sex outside marriage is discouraged in the quran. If two people are so in love and so committed to each other, then why aren't they willing to go the whole way and make their love legally binding (i.e. in marriage) rather than simply giving way to their emotions? Someone who's willing to postpone sex and marry his/her beloved before having sex is a lot nobler (and truly in love) in my book!

Salaam all,
Interesting points brought up by Claurianta again. However, as far as I know, the Arabic word "zina" means any sexual relations outside marriage (whether or not the parties involved are married or not). Thus, it covers both the English words "fornication" & "adultery". I don't know Arabic myself though so I can't guarantee the meaning of the word but that's the translation & explanation I have read.
I don't know about the formal requirements of marriage itself. However, I do agree with Claurianta that the rules (& punishment) for adultery/fornication do not apply to cases of rape. The Qur'an does not talk about rape so the laws pertaining to that fall under a state's domain. Rape is a totally different matter altogether and should be dealt with accordingly (There's no consent involved in the case of the victim and she cannot be punished when she has done nothing wrong. That defies logic!)

Salaam all,

Claurianta's questions & objections are very reasonable & valid (although I don't agree that Islam mandates the death penalty for apostasy because it does not).

That's why, as I mentioned before, I like Muhammad Asad's translation & explanation concerning the matter. Please do refer to it.

This is what he says

Would any of you agree with & comment on the above? What do you think?

To quote phoenix1

why would anyone marry an adultress/adulterer?

Many reasons you may not know that your spouse has committed fornication/adultery until after the marriage or the adultery itself may be committed after marriage or a thousand other reasons...

Have already posted this under the thread "Homosexuality" but thought I'd post it here too. Homosexuality is wrong. Consider Lot's people.

Even though scientific studies these days claim that some people are born with homosexual tendencies (I don't know how far that's true), it is the act that counts. Take adultery, for example. Someone may be tempted to commit adultery but what counts is his refraining from carrying out the act. Similarly, even if a person has homosexual feelings and is tempted to act out on them, what counts is his refraining from carrying out the act. If people can avoid committing adultery, I'm certain they can also avoid committing homosexual acts.

I agree with you lot. Even though scientific studies these days claim that some people are born with homosexual tendencies (I don't know how far that's true), it is the act that counts. Take adultery, for example. Someone may be tempted to commit adultery but what counts is his refraining from carrying out the act. Similarly, even if a person has homosexual feelings and is tempted to act out on them, what counts is his refraining from carrying out the act. If people can avoid committing adultery, I'm certain they can also avoid committing homosexual acts.

Salam, Sis SwedenMajidah,

Thanks for your reply. It made a lot of sense. I wish you the best in your future, inshallah!

God bless...

Salam Sis SwedenMajidah,
Am just going to reiterate my questions.

So when Quran points out that an adulterer only can marry an adulteress or an idolworshipper it means that they should marry someone like themselves.

If an adulterer/adulteress can only marry someone like him/herself, then what does his/her spouse do if they are already married? Does the spouse have to divorce the adulterer/adulteress? Is it wrong for the spouse to remain married to the adulterer/adulteress?

I want to know if anyone can guide me to the exact translation of the concerned verse. Does it really state that an adulterer must not marry any but an adulteress or does it state that the adulterer does not marry any but an adulteress etc? I can see how this applies if a person takes the trouble to find out about his/her spouse-to-be before they actually get married but what about (as can often happen) a person finds out after marriage that his/her spouse has had extramarital sex before the marriage. What should that person do? Divorce? What if the couple now has children? What if the person really loves his/her spouse and is ready to forgive him/her for what has occurred? If the person continues the marriage, is s/he her/himself sinful for remaining married to an adulterer/adulteress?

Would also like further input concerning the above questions.

God bless...

These questions (asked by Nafisa, I think) are thought-provoking ones. I myself am looking for answers to these besides the ones I have already asked

Pickthall
2403 The adulterer shall not marry save an adulteress or an idolatress, and the adulteress none shall marry save an adulterer or an idolater. All that is forbidden unto believers.

Yusuf Ali
2403 Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.

Khalifa
2403 The adulterer will end up marrying an adulteress or an idol worshiper, and the adulteress will end up marrying an adulterer or an idol worshiper. This is prohibited for the believers.

What do you think about this ayat (marrying adulters)? If it's prohibited how can women ever know whether their bridegrooms have had an affair or not? Maybe in shariah laws it would be possible with public lashing (except no witnessed affairs) but what about now? As for men, are we supposed to ask our girlfriends this before marriage? Like "have you ever commited adultery" or "are you a virgin" This would be rude.

Any ideas appreciated.

Salam,
Thanks for the prompt reply, Sarah. I do agree with what you said but would still like some more answers.

Sorry to make this so complicated but what if the adulterer/adulteress confesses his/her sin but not because s/he is repentent but because s/he is honest about it. Of course, only God knows what is in the hearts & minds of His creatures but what should the concerned spouse do about this situation? What is expected of the innocent spouse in this matter?

Also, can anyone guide me to the literal translation of the first few verses of Surah Nur as asked earlier? Any other thoughts on the matter?

P.S. What about adultery committed during a marriage? Any thoughts on this?

Salam,
I'm new around here. I find the site free-minds.org quite interesting and have been reading about the problem of adultery & marrying an adulterer. I want to know if anyone can guide me to the exact translation of the concerned verse. Does it really state that an adulterer must not marry any but an adulteress or does it state that the adulterer does not marry any but an adulteress etc? I'm asking because I don't know Arabic, especially not Quranic Arabic. I can see how this applies if a person takes the trouble to find out about his/her spouse-to-be before they actually get married but what about (as can often happen) a person finds out after marriage that his/her spouse has had extramarital sex before the marriage. What should that person do? Divorce? What if the couple now has children? What if the person really loves his/her spouse and is ready to forgive him/her for what has occurred? If the person continues the marriage, is s/he her/himself sinful for remaining married to an adulterer/adulteress? This seems a little illogical to me.
I actually tend to agree with the Quranic translator Muhammad Asad on this matter. Please check out his translation of the verse. But I would like to know what the Arabic words used in the verse literally mean.
God bless...

Salam, all,

Recently, the thought of an everlasting hell as contained in the quran has been preying on my mind. I read an article on the Freeminds site which stated that hell is forever and there are no two ways about it! Okay, if that is what the Quran says, I have no choice but to accept it BUT I must get in my tuppence worth!

An ETERNAL hell seems to me to go against Gods merciful nature! I mean, you could be the worst person the world had ever seen (Moses pharoah, Hitler, war criminals etc) but, logically speaking, when you had served your time, you would be eligible to be taken OUT of the state called hell, if not sent to heaven. I mean, how could a person serve eternally for sins done in an extremely short life (however great the sins may be). I hope you understand what I`m trying to say. A murderer could burn for a billion years (so to speak) for a murder he committed, but eventually there would come a time when he would have paid for his sins. It would then become unjust to keep him in hell! And God does not punish with MORE than a sin entails.

I just don`t understand it...

Any thoughts...?