no miracles?
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Peace nerspi,
i don't know. I used to believe these miracles were literal. And i still believe that God could do it if he so wished. On the other hand, many of those miracles can still be explained in the realm of the "physically" (i mean law of physics) possible and as far as i remember this is what these threads were also trying to establish.
but i think that the lesson in a metaphor is even greater, as it is open to everyone who wishes to see and not limited to believing in what has not been seen or experienced
lk
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Ok...May be there are many reasons to believe in those tricks. But there is a very important verse, we normally overlook it
1077 Qala moosa ataqooloona lilhaqqi lamma jaakum asihrun hatha wala yuflihu alssahiroona
Moses said "Would you say this about the truth(Haq) when it came to you? Is this magic? The magicians will not be successful.The question is, If turning staff into a snake is not a magic then what else is it? Moses called it 'Haq'. Just bear with me!
We cannot deny Haq, can we?.........We know that everything in the universe is following some laws! we understand it, we do understand it dont we?
If turning staff into snake is not magic but Haq!!!!!!!!!!!! There is a message in it! Guess what?
The message is that There can be some rules and laws by which a staff can be turned to snake and split the sea and so on. Since everything in the universe is 'Musakhir' (4513) for us, so we can find those laws for sure! That is the message if those tricks were not the magic.
May God give wisdom to all of us
With Respect, Hamsa
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peace
all universal laws aside. that's why it's called a miracle, it's a sign from God. He made those rules and He can break them.
The question is, If turning staff into a snake is not a magic then what else is it?
a sign.
so moses would be relieved. kind of like 21602260 And Abraham said "My Lord, show me how you resurrect the dead." He said "Do you not already believe?" He said "I do, but it is so my heart can be relieved." He said "Choose four birds, then cut them, then place parts of the birds on each mountain, then call them to you; they will come racing towards you. And know that God is Noble, Wise."
is this ayaat a metaphor too? if it is, then why? what's the meaning of it?
lets say the prophet was telling this to other people, how would that conversation go
prophetThey God told him to cut four birds and place parts of them on each moiuntain and to call them and they came racing.
some guyreally?
prophetWell, no. It's just an expression, a metaphor.
some guywhat are you trying to say?it could be used for any miracle.
now i would like to hear why do some say it's a metaphor, what else could it mean?
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Peace brother nerspi
Believe me there are many other verse in Quran which you can present as a proof, but this verse 2260 even the most conventional scholars describe it differently and not as miracle at all. But which word you translate as cut them?
God Bless
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Peace,
I have written a book on this subject Evolution of Thinking
splitting of the sea=Rare natural phenomena called Tidewinds where the wind has the same direction as the tide, creating dry spots in lakes, seas and rivers. The miracle here is not the splitting, but the guidance towards the correct spot. The only interference God did was guiding them to the spot through Revelation.
cane turning into a snake=When he saw this, this was in the valley of Tuwa, tuwa means wrapped within and together with the valley it refers to a state of vision. Asa means not directly 'staff', it refers to a state of unity. It is also used for a staff as the fingers unite on its handle. Asa also means people, belief, conviction. Anything that unites. In the state of Vision, Moses saw his staff turn alive, where the staff represented his people travelling through the desert as a snake moving. Asa also means people.
For the battle with the Sahara, translated as magicians while Sihr means many more things, please see chapter 3 of the above book.what about when they threw abraham into fire and Allah made the fire cool=Where does it say it was a real fire? People wanted to throw him into a fire, but Allah made the fire cool. This logically refers to the fire of the anger of his people. He rescued Abraham by making him flee his people. See also my book.
Does Allah need to show His Power through breaking the rules He made? Is this not a kind of paradox? Isn't the creation of the Laws already the sign of His Power?
There are far more logical answers to the stories in the Quran, mostly it has to do with the interference of Biblical thinking used on the Quran.
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He made those rules and He can break them
I am sorry but that is the behaviour of your God, My God do not/ and cannot break His laws. I also believe that we all have different conepts of God and our understandings of the scriputes (not only the Quran but all scriptures) depends on that concept.
Peace! Hamsa
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peace
Peace brother nerspi
Believe me there are many other verse in Quran which you can present as a proof, but this verse 2260 even the most conventional scholars describe it differently and not as miracle at all. But which word you translate as cut them?
God Blesswell what is it then, if not a miracle? what do these scholars say?
what about when they threw abraham into fire and Allah made the fire cool=Where does it say it was a real fire?
i don't know, i saw the word fire, and i thought of, well, fire.
but yeah, the fire could also refer to anger.Does Allah need to show His Power through breaking the rules He made? Is this not a kind of paradox?
it doesn't have to be a paradox, so what if He breaks the laws He made just to show people His signs.
but if He didn't break the laws, then what were the signs?also, why would they translate it like it would appear as if it was a miracle, why not translate it literally, so we'd know what it means and so there would be no misunderstandings?
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Because the interpretation we know was made by Persian and Jewish converts in the 3rd century after the Prophet. Their explanations/tafseers of the Quran are dominant in the interpretation of the Quran and have influenced so much that all other possibilities are completely ignored.
And again here is also the problem with the lack of knowledge of Arabic. There are no real 'literal' or 'metaphorical' meanings in Arabic. Each Arabic word has a definition which describes the possibilities of the word's meaning. Like for example Asa meaning State of Unity, this can apply many things. So it meaning Staff is as literal as it meaning People or Belief or Conviction.
Also, most people believe God MUST break His Laws to show His Power. If He doesn't, He is suddenly not Powerful, apparently the creation of the Universe is not enough.
But please read my book, it explains it all
Evolution of Thinking; Explanation of the miracles
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Not only the creation of the Universe, but you study the behaviour of little ants, house flies and even the mosquito everything in the universe from little to the giant galaxies is a sign of God! What these magical tricks have to do with the Power of almighty God.
As for 260, Brother nerspi, please do a search yourself, use TIM, lane, studyquran.co.uk is also a very good site to research the Quran. Am in a hurry at the moment! If you couldn't find answer I'll post in a while.
Here you can find 16-translations of Quran, Just compare yourself http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/
Peace, Hamsa
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Because the interpretation we know was made by Persian and Jewish converts in the 3rd century after the Prophet. Their explanations/tafseers of the Quran are dominant in the interpretation of the Quran and have influenced so much that all other possibilities are completely ignored.
And again here is also the problem with the lack of knowledge of Arabic. There are no real 'literal' or 'metaphorical' meanings in Arabic. Each Arabic word has a definition which describes the possibilities of the word's meaning. Like for example Asa meaning State of Unity, this can apply many things. So it meaning Staff is as literal as it meaning People or Belief or Conviction.
what's wrong with their interpretation? how do we know which one is the correct one?
so we must all learn arabic to understand the qur'an?and thanks for the book
Not only the creation of the Universe, but you study the behaviour of little ants, house flies and even the mosquito everything in the universe from little to the giant galaxies is a sign of God! What these magical tricks have to do with the Power of almighty God.
As for 260, Brother nerspi, please do a search yourself, use TIM, lane, studyquran.co.uk is also a very good site to research the Quran. Am in a hurry at the moment! If you couldn't find answer I'll post in a while.
Here you can find 16-translations of Quran, Just compare yourself http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/
Peace, Hamsa
i was thinking of a sing as something out of the ordinary, something you don't see every day.
thanks for the links.
16 you say, wow. -
Well, logic and crossreference of meanings and understandings. Plus, if you can give a very logical explanation of a verse, why go for the unlogical one?
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birth, life, the sun rising every day, the song of a bird, the laughter of children... these aren't miracles enough for some
god gives, we take... and continue to ask for more more more
a good brush with death usually reminds me of how good i really have it... not everyone is so blessed i guess
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peace
I do agree with what Arnold said (with some exceptions).
The thing is, we cannot believe that these "miracles" ever happened. Even if the quran does mention actual, literal miracles. And by "cannot" I mean we don't have a choice. We can't, by nature, believe in something we have never seen. There will always be doubt. Even if it's small. The doubt will always be there. No one really, truly believes that Moses split the sea and Jesus healed the blind.
I drive a Honda Civic. It's a stick shift, but only has about 90 horses. But that's not the important part. The important part is that it is a very reliable car. Every time I get in and turn the key, it starts. Every freaking time. So every morning when I get into the car, I truly believe (you can say that I know) that the car will start when I turn the key. It's like a law. I don't even have to think about whether the car will start or not, because I know it always will.
That's belief in the unseen. Even though I haven't seen my car start the next day, I believe that it will.
Now, no matter how reliable the car is, it's bound to fail sometimes, but God's laws never change. They are always constant. They are always the same. That's why we can go on with our lives without going insane. That's why we can tell truth from falsehood. If reality kept changing on God's whims every now and then, we wouldn't know what to follow.
Another example of what I'm saying is...practice. Why do athletes practice? Because unless you actually see, or experience yourself doing something, you will not believe that you can do it. Once you do, you have this belief that you can do it, and you do.
You know that when you will yourself to walk, you will walk without even thinking about it, because you've experienced it before. You believe that you can do it everytime. It's in your subconscious. You don't even have to think about it. That's belief.
And belief is what turns into our actions. What we believe is what we do, and what we do is what we are.
That's why belief is so important in the Quran, because if our goal is to do the right things, then our beliefs have to be right first.
Believing in something that we haven't experienced is false belief. It doesn't really count because we will never act according to it.
So, the quran never asks us to believe in something that we have no proof of, that we have never seen, that we can never truly believe. It doesn't ask us to the impossible.
So I don't know how we should look at these stories. But I'm sure that these miracles never happened. Unless of course I see one happen tomorrow. Until then, I'll look for a different understanding. -
peace
well you could see how some (even me) could believe something like that. we are told God can do anything and splitting the sea is no problem. so naturally i thought it happened.
seeing that it is possible, people will think it actually happened. but if it didn't, i still have to ask, why would anybody translate or interprete it like that?
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That was a question I wanted you to answer. But I knew what your answer would be. It's "no."
Then why do you believe the quran when the quran says something similar (in terms of ridiculousness)?
I'm saying that we shouldn't try to believe what we can't believe.
peace -
peace
what're you saying?
that we shouldn't take literally everything in the qur'an?
how can you tell when something is used as a metaphor?Peace brother
Ok, in your daily language do any one need to tell you what is said is literal or metaphor? Quran was revealed in the language of human beings and contains, exapmples, metaphores, literal expressions. For example in the following verse
824 O you who believe! answer (the call of) Allah and His Messenger when he calls
you to that which gives you lifeDo anyone need to tell that Prophet didn't call to physically dead people to give them life!
And also people who do not reflect Quran call them blind, deaf and the dumb do anyone need to tell that this is not literal?
In the other places where we use metaphores as literal is just because of tradition and some stories found in history. That is what I could understand.
Peace all, Hamsa
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Hello All
The literal meaning for the word miracle, is miracle, I guess a child should know that
I.e. the dumb deaf and blind are those who don?t take the word miracle as a real miracle
Salam