no miracles?
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Brother Arnold,
Please explain this part of your article to me
I read the first Mary part which is immediately after Zacheria part, Is that the the one you explain the birth of Jesus?
I hereby quote from your article/book "Yasha or Will of Allah" at http//19.org/index.php?id=91,553,0,0,1,0&PHPSESSID=35d276b8ffb5b203e158f2db8d09a821
"The same is with Mary where she is surprised to be chosen to bare a child, while in reality she thought she would be a nun the rest of her life. She asks how can I have a child? Allah answers with that His Will, which is expressed through His Laws, gives her the possibility to leave the Temple and get married. Which she does as explained in the verses after it. Mary believed it was Allah's Will to remain a nun, but Allah says she must submit to Allah's Laws and not to man-made ones. So her surprise was because of her misunderstanding of what really Allah's Laws were."
While the verses are
1916 And relate in the Scripture Mary, when she withdrew herself from her family to a place which was to the east.
1917 She took to a barrier which separated her from them, so We sent Our spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human being in all similarity.
1918 She said "I seek refuge with the Almighty from you if you are a person of faith."
1919 He said "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you the gift of a pure son."
1920 She said "How can I have a son when no human being has been with me, nor have I desired such?"
1921 He said "It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. And We shall make him a sign for the people and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained."
1922 So she was pregnant with him, and she went to deliver in a far place.359 The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.
Now, where does it say Mary went to get married to have Jesus - THAT WOULD SURELY CONTRADICT WITH 359 ABOVE - or would you say the creation of Adam was also as such?
Yes, I'll try to go on and read your "Evolution of Thinking" soon, if God so wills.
May God Guide.
Hello
Also Mary said "She said How can I have a son when no human being has been with me"
I.e. it has nothing to do with being a nun rather by not being touched by another man
Salam
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Nerspi, people have translated the Quran differently because the previous generations under the influence of the Bible and Persians has laid out the rules for them that it must be so. Sadly, the Freeminds translations still is influenced by this thinking. Rejecting Hadith does not immediately imply they do not have influenced your approach.
peace
so the translators are to blame?
now if i learned arabic and read the qur'an in the arabic language, would i find that those verses that imply miracles actually mean something else, not miracles at all?as for the birth of jesus, even if he had a father, why would God tell us that his birth is the same as adam's? why pick him of all people?
is it because people since jesus until the qur'an was revealed were under the impression that his mom was a virgin when she gave birth and since adam also means mankind, God wanted to point out that jesus's creation was like the rest of the mankind? -
Peace Zidane and Nerspi,
Please take the effort of reading my book, it is not necessary for me to repeat everything when it is already written and explained completely.....
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Peace Arnold, Hamsa, )
197 "O Zachariah, We give you glad tidings of a son whose name is John. We have not given that name before to anyone."
198 He said "My Lord, how can I have a son when my wife is infertile, and I have reached a very old age?"
199 He said "It is such that your Lord has said. It is an easy thing for Me. And I had created you before when you were not even anything."Isn't it His law that infertile and very old people can't have babies but then "It is such that your Lord has said. It is an easy thing for Me. And I had created you before when you were not even anything." so then you should try to find patches to show that it is not a miracle in all those verses?
It is not "breaking His law". Is the law on us or on Him? Surely He is not under "our" law.
His law is that sterility, or even sterilty by age, can be cured. Doesn't that happen now? He explains this in 2190
"So We answered his call and We bestowed upon him Yahya (John, if you wish) and cured his wife
To transcribe something with the RIGHT HAND in above verse means to conjure it as in
- And if the apostle were to invent any sayings in Our name,
Laakhathna minhu bialyameeni
6945 We should certainly seize him by his RIGHT HAND, - And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart
..."
6945 In the original Arabic, "his" before "right hand" does not exist. You correctly transliterated it., which is even a further proof that it means "mighty/power/most seriousness...)
peace
so the translators are to blame?
now if i learned arabic and read the qur'an in the arabic language, would i find that those verses that imply miracles actually mean something else, not miracles at all?Not the translators, their prior text.
It doesn't matter whether you master Arabic or you know nothing of it, as long as your prior text is immeresd in hadiths and fairy tales, and you insist on them, you will not unsersand anything.
peace
since adam also means mankind, God wanted to point out that jesus's creation was like the rest of the mankind?
Exactly. You Got it!!
- And if the apostle were to invent any sayings in Our name,
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Peace Samia
Will it be wrong to use right hand or right side in Laakhathna minhu bialyameeni in 6945
20 17
Pickthall And what is that in thy right hand, O Moses?Transliteration Wa ma_ tilka biyaminika ya_ mu_sa_
20 18
Pickthall He said This is my staff whereon I lean, and wherewith I beat down branches for my sheep, and wherein I find other uses.Transliteration Qa_la hiya asha_y atawak ka u 'alaiha_ wa ahus syu biha_ 'ala_ ghanami waliya fiha_ ma a_ribu ukhra_
The above 2 verses can they be translated as ,
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What is your Strength Moses?
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He said, "It is my conviction/faith on it I lean; with it I beat down fodder for my flocks; and in it I find other uses."
Can you please advice on the language ?
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Asa in its essence means "State of Unity" or "That which supports", "Collection", "Come together", "Gathering" it refers to a cane, as the fingers unite on its handle. It was also used for people, nation, as you can support on them and they are united. It also referred too Faith, Belief, Conviction and other words that have a definition of unity and support or brings people together. This is my understanding from several dictionaries, and several Quran translators also use it.
When you study for example Lane's Lexicon on the word Asa, you can see that 90% of all uses of Asa, are in metaphors, where the Asa has more a metaphorical meaning then a literal one.
For example
Shaqu l-Asaa=The splitting of the staff=te disuniting of the body of the tribe.Ayn-Sad-Waw = to strike with a stick. asiya/ya'sa - to take a stick, come together, collection, accumulation, amazing, gathering, assemblage, congregation. asa - staff, stick, rod, supports, nation, mastery, people, party, tongue, skin, bone. idrib bi asaka al hajer - strike with your staff on the rock, go forth with your people.
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His law is that sterility, or even sterilty by age, can be cured. Doesn't that happen now? He explains this in 2190
"So We answered his call and We bestowed upon him Yahya (John, if you wish) and cured his wife
..."Peace Brother Samia, Arnorld,
I said that "Isn't it His law that infertile and very old people can't have babies". Can infertile people have babies?
I didn't say that they can't be cured because God is capable of all things. They can surely be cured by God. When they are cured, they are fertile.
About which you say that Doesn't "that happen now?", I know little, so please show me evidence that infertile people can be cured now. And even if they can, for me, it is God's miracle that He cured them at that time. Also remeber that Zacharia was also
194 He said "My Lord, my bones have gone frail, and my hair has turned white, and I have never been mischievous in calling to You my Lord."
Hence thise verse
199 He said "It is such that your Lord has said. It is an easy thing for Me. And I had created you before when you were not even anything."
It clearly shows that God is capable of all things, beyond what people see ordinarily.
2190 So We responded to him, and We granted him John, and We cured his wife. They used to hasten to do good, and they would call to Us in joy and in fear. And to Us they were reverent.
To me, this "curing" is because "They used to hasten to do good, and they would call to Us in joy and in fear. And to Us they were reverent."
NOT because "He thought it was impossible, due to his limited knowledge of the possibilities in Allah's Creation" as in Arnolds's "Yasha or Will of Allah" article.
Now 340 shows
340 He said 'My Lord, how can I have a son when old age has reached me and my wife is infertile?' He said 'It is as such that God does what He pleases.'
That's clear enough for me.
And remember the whole Jeus story I posted 2 times already, if it was like in Arnolds's "Yasha or Will of Allah" article that Mary went to get married to have Jesus then why this verse
2191 And the one who protected her chastity, so We blew into her from Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.
Immediately after 2190 about Zacharia... Releating to chapter 19's stories perfectly.
Breaking the law? No.
The ordinary laws, limitations are on us, humans, NOT ON GOD.
659 And with Him are the keys to the unseen, none know them except He. And He knows what is in the land and in the sea; and not a leaf falls except with His knowledge; nor a seed in the darkness of the Earth; nor anything moist or anything dry; all is in a clear record.
If we try to do something, by our free-will, that is beyond the laws then God doesn't allow it to happen. For example, I can't fly like superman.
The Algorithm, as I understand, goes like thisFreewill -> if God allows -> it happen if He wishes.
This law is on the CREATED.
THIS IS SURELY NOT THE SAME WITH GOD. Why? Because, as in 340 and so many other verses showing God is limitless and capable of all things, He said 'It is as such that God does what He pleases.'
For me, that is clearly why
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God CAN and DID make the (real) fire cool to Abraham as shown in the veres I already posted. (Yes, in the translations that I used - progressive muslims translation - with no parenthesis or patches to make it look like the rage of people instead.).
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God CAN and DID make Mary give birth to Jesus when "no human being has been with me, nor have I desired such?". And it happened according to 2191 above, NOT THAT SHE WENT TO GET MARRIED TO HAVE JESUS.
I hereby apologize if my understanding is wrong or if I don't comprehend that which you do, or if my words offended any of you in any way. God please forgive.
God knows best.
handshake Even though many of us might seem different in many ways but I am happy that we all worship God Alone.
15 You alone we serve, and You alone we seek for help.
May God Guide.
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Peace Zidane and Nerspi,
Please take the effort of reading my book, it is not necessary for me to repeat everything when it is already written and explained completely.....
Sorry for my impatience that I ask it here instead.
Yes, I'll try to read it soon, if God so wills.
May God Guide.
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It doesn't matter whether you master Arabic or you know nothing of it, as long as your prior text is immeresd in hadiths and fairy tales, and you insist on them, you will not unsersand anything.
peace
ok, but since there is more then one meaning for a certain word in arabic like with asa or other words and these translators choose a certain word like "cane" and "snake" or "sea" and "split" or "brought back the dead" so it would seem that miracles happened but arnold, and others that he listed, have translated it differently, they used different words to translate it.
arnold listed several meanings for the word asa there and many translate it as cane but he choose to translate it as conviction. and there are other words too, some translate a sectance "brought back the dead" but he chose different words so the sectance changed.
so is there an expert on arabic language who is not immersed in hadith who can translate the qur'an correctly? or am i gonna have to learn arabic myself to know what the actual message was?
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Posted in another thread of this forum titled "Muhammad's Miracles Fact or Fantasy"
What is a Miracle??? I mean to say your understanding of a Miracle?
A plane seen flying over the sky 1400 years ago may have been a Miracle but now it is not.
The person in suleman's time who had the knowldge of the book who could bring things within a blink of eye performed a miracle but today we know there is a possibility for it.
Muhammad Traveling with speed of light can be digested today it was a miracle then.
Some ancient greeks had contacts with their desciples through telepathy, they were considered to have divine powers, we can attain those powers by concentartion so no more a miracle.
Few years ago it was a fanatasy to travel to moon now it is a fact.Muhammad himself was a mircale (depending upon the definition of miracle)
So strong a personality he had, that no matter how you analyse him negatively or positevely he has made the greatest impact on human history.
An illetrate person who had followers some of them genius of their times, a person so confident in his mission despite all the difficulties achieving his goals.
Answer to could Muhammad perform miracles or not, will lead us no where
but it is a fact that his life is miraclous by any defination of miracle and those who think against it are living in the world of fantasy.Then again question remains the same, first we must decide what actually the "MIRACLE" is.
According to my understasndingA miracle is an unusual action or event that goes against the commonly observed laws of nature.
He threw down his staff and it turned in to a tremendous surpent."
" He took out his hand and it was white to the beholders."
" The leaders among Pharoah's people said This is no more than a clever magician."My Only question to those who say it was not physical is; then why did the leaders among Pharoah's said that "This is no more than a clever magician"??????
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Because the verses do not immediately say that, Asa means a lot more then staff, it doesn't say serpent, it only says the Asa became alive, which can even mean that Moses's conviction/Asa became alive.
Yad-Byado means white hand, but in classic Arabic this means something is very clear.
Sahara does not immediately mean magician, but someone who presents falsehood as truth.
You have to understand the Arabic to understand these issues, most translations completely fall short on these matters.
Also please read the whole thread before responding, so repitition of questions is prevented.
Your questions are answered here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14219.msg125783#msg125783
and here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13826.msg126162#new
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A miracle is an unusual action or event that goes against the commonly observed laws of nature.
Yes you are right! A Miracle is a contradiction in the Al-Kitaab Universe.
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Peace
Was Jesus sent to bunch of Art students from New York.
Why would suddenly sometimes in the middle of the conversation God, Messengers, disciples and even others start talking in sentences in which every word is a metaphor.The Quraan says Messenger is not a poet and the message is not poetry.
Do you guys talk to each other in complete metaphors.Can anyone give an example.
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no one has to talk in complete metaphors, but at least i can understand a metaphor when i hear or see one.
physical message or spiritual message?
physical if you are dirty then wash yourself
spiritual if you are a low state then elevate yourself
physical before you go into the holy city shave your head
spiritual you will be unable to enter the system until you clear your mind
if god isn't physical then why would his message be?
anyways it's not up to me to decide for people... enjoy whatever decisions you make for as long as it lasts )
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Both