no miracles?

Al-Quraishi

Yes, but therein lies the pitfall.

God says,

But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings,

People who are taking the stories literally don't act the way the perverse people who are manipulating these verses for their own ends, healthy people take them as stories and believe they happened and benefit from the obvious wisdom of how the good people and bad people acted in it, furthermore, they take the fundamental verses and follow them through, unlike perverse people who wish to translate pork as this and jinn as that.

Also, allegorical verses doesn't mean the parables of the book, it means those verses with no clear understanding, however some Joe Messiah will always come along showing the people 'what it really means'.

Alen

Salam.

I think that The GOD Almighty, AllPowerful knows best what happened back then.

My personal opinion did it all happen literally? Yeah, i think it did because those people needed some really, truly strong sign to see that a Messenger speaks the truth.

Today we have miracles but according to our understanding and our intelligence.

Back then, people wanted to see dead come to life, they even asked messengers to bring back the dead. Jesus brought the dead back, with the will of The GOD All Powerful, right?
They wanted to see GOD back then, correct? Well, after Moses walked through the dry ground through the sea, non-believers did see something they didn't believe - death, which is promised to everyoneone, but hard death and a tough one is given to true ly bad non-believers.

GOD knows best.

Today we want to see GOD's miracles we see them every day, all day.
People smoke all day, for decades and don't die.
Same goes for drinking.
....

Peace.

unknownuser

Also, allegorical verses doesn't mean the parables of the book, it means those verses with no clear understanding, however some Joe Messiah will always come along showing the people 'what it really means'.

These are verses of the Qur'an; a Book that makes things clear (271)

If there are verses in Quran that have no clear understanding then how would you explain 271 and all other verses which says Verses of Quran makes things clear.

Since we have not given any seperate list of literal and allegorical verses, then how to decide which is which and what is what.

nerspi

peace

i think it did because those people needed some really, truly strong sign to see that a Messenger speaks the truth.

okay, then i wanna see miracles too.

If there are verses in Quran that have no clear understanding then how would you explain 271 and all other verses which says Verses of Quran makes things clear.

maybe the verses are unclear just today. in the future, who knows.
they didn't know the meaning of expanding the universe or mountains that move or the lowest point of the world, but now we do.

anyway, these messengers came with signs, they showed signs, if they weren't cane turning to snakes or splitting seas or resurrecting the dead, then what were they?
i've read many times that disbelievers didn't believe in clear signs, now what were they?

unknownuser

i've read many times that disbelievers didn't believe in clear signs, now what were they?

The following are the signs people do not reflect
3022
And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colours verily in that are Signs for those who know.

12105
And how many Signs in the heavens and the earth do they pass by, yet they turn (their faces) away from them!

maybe the verses are unclear just today. in the future, who knows.

This part is not in the verse that why verses are not clear but in our interpretation of that verse. This is exactly where people differ in opinion.

hey didn't know the meaning of expanding the universe or mountains that move or the lowest point of the world, but now we do.

They knew them according to their knowledge of the universe. We interpret them according to ours. After 500 years later people would interpret them according to their knowledge at that time.

phoenix1

anyway, these messengers came with signs, they showed signs, if they weren't cane turning to snakes or splitting seas or resurrecting the dead, then what were they?
i've read many times that disbelievers didn't believe in clear signs, now what were they?

peace nerspi,
I believe that the "the signs" are found in this universe. The messengers may point them out to us, but they are already there for all to see. Everything that happens and everything that exists has signs in it, some clear and other unclear. I think they're signs pointing to the right path and to the truth. Some people choose to ignore them or use the unclear signs to spread their false ideas.
look at the verse RasulHamsa posted above. Everything is a sign from God for those who know.

unknownuser

okay, then i wanna see miracles too.

See then!

2164

Surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of night and day and the ship that runs in the sea with profit to men, and the water God sends down from heaven therewith reviving the earth after it is dead and His scattering abroad in it all manner of crawling thing, and the turning about of the winds and the clouds compelled between heaven and earth -- surely there are signs for a people having understanding.

453

Verily in the heavens and the earth, are Signs for those who believe.
454

And in the creation of yourselves and the fact that animals are scattered (through the earth), are Signs for those of assured Faith.

And also see all occurances of the word Ayah.

Peace, Hamsa

Note I am not presenting these verses to support my point of view and my undrstanding. (God forbid)
But Just to understand and reflect more and to get more wisdom from all you bros.

edited to add note

Al-Quraishi

These are verses of the Qur'an; a Book that makes things clear (271)

Good point!

Samia

You mean that story can also be metaphorical? ;D

I know. shshshsh. Just remove the sentence starting "Unless"

unknownuser

I know. shshshsh. Just remove the sentence starting "Unless"

No no, I dont want to remove that sentence, but want to understand that story -*

unknownuser

Peace all,

The fact is that some of the stories given in al-qur'aan CANNOT have a metaphorical interpretation. I gave the examples in an earlier post and everyone can see that no one has offered a metaphorical interpretation of those stories WITHOUT VIOLATING QUR'AANIC GRAMMAR, LOGIC, AND CONTEXT and without coming up with a nonsensical English rendering.

The story of a person dead for a hundred years and then resurrected from his bones CANNOT have a metaphorical interpretation in the context. The story of some people sleeping for 309 years and then waking up CANNOT have a metaphorical interpretation in the context. There are lessons to be learned and signs in those stories without metaphorical interpretations.

Some stories can have a metaphorical interpretation (like some people being turned into pigs and apes) but even ONE story in al-qur'aan that goes against the "commonly observable" phenomenon and cannot be interpretated metaphorically is enough evidence/proof of possibility of a literal "miracle".

Having said that, I agree that we should not keep pursuing allegorical signs per 37, and instead devote more of our attention and energy to the correct interpretation of the fundamental/law giving signs. No more comments on this subject from me in this thread.

unknownuser

Peace brother Tanveer,

I completely understand your point but let us understand the metaphorical meanings as well, may be we get more wisdom. And I completely agree with your last paragraph.

God bless, Hamsa

Ghulam_Rasool

I don't believe that everything in the Holy Quran is literal, and 37 confirms that some verses are indeed allegorical. A perfect example is

And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves (3103)

Nobody believes there is an actual rope hanging from the sky which all Muslims must firmly hold onto. The inner meaning of the verse is that the Rope of Allah refers to the Holy Quran and Sunnat, and Muslims must strictly stick to these, otherwise they will be divided.

warner

Peace Samia , Nun

Can we translate the yamini in the following verses as strength/ability?

What is the Arabic word for left hand/left side?

16 48
Pickthall Have they not observed all thing that Allah hath created, how their shadows incline to the right and to the left, making prostration unto Allah, and they are lowly?

Transliteration Awalam yarau ila_ ma_ khalaqalla_hu min syai'iy yatafayya'u zila_luhu_ 'anil yamini wasy syama_'ili sujjadal lilla_hi wa hum da_khiru_n(a).

18 18
Yusuf Ali Thou wouldst have deemed them awake whilst they were asleep and We turned them on their right and their left sides their dog stretching forth his two forelegs on the threshold if thou hadst come up on to them thou wouldst have certainly turned back from them in flight and wouldst certainly have been filled with terror of them.

Transliteration Wa tahsabuhum aiqa_zaw wa hum ruqu_d(uw), wa nuqallibuhum za_tal yamini wa za_tasy syima_l(i), wa kalbuhum ba_situn zira_'aihi bil wasid(i), law-ittala'ta 'alaihim lawallaita minhum fira_raw wa lamuli'ta minhum ru'ba_(n).

34 15
Yusuf Ali There was for Saba' aforetime a Sign in their homeland two Gardens to the right and to the left. Eat of the Sustenance (provided) by your Lord and be grateful to Him a territory fair and happy and a Lord Oft-Forgiving!

Transliteration Laqad ka_na lisaba in fi maskanihim a_yah jan nata_ni ay yaminiw wa sima_l kulu_ mir rizqi rab bikum was kuru_lah bal datun tay yibatuw wa rab bun gafu_r

17 71
Pickthall On the day when We shall summon ill men with their record, whoso is given his book in his right hand such will read their book and they will not be wronged a shred.

Transliteration Yauma nad'u_ kulla una_sim bi ima_mihim, faman u_tiya kita_bahu_ bi yaminihi fa ula_'ika yaqra'u_na kita_bahum wa la_ yuzlamu_na fatila_(n).

Samia

Peace Samia , Nun

Can we translate the yamini in the following verses as strength/ability?

What is the Arabic word for left hand/left side?

All these verses, save the last one, mention "yameen" AND "shimaal left", so I do not think you can choose the meaning of strength/ability here for "yameen"

As for the last one not his right hand (what is special about the right hand)? Why would good deeds be carried by the right hand and the bad ones by the left hand?

warner

Peace Aaron

physical if you are dirty then wash yourself

spiritual if you are a low state then elevate yourself

How do we tell someone ?if they are dirty to get a wash?, I mean literally, since if we say ?if you are dirty then wash yourself? will mean ?if you are a low state then elevate yourself?. That will create too many elevated people with poor hygiene.

Is using metaphor in a sentence and talking in complete metaphors same ? I cannot imagine two people having a great conversation in metaphors.

According to the explanation based on metaphors, in 5112 the disciples start talking to Jesus in metaphors , Jesus replies in metaphors and then Jesus talks to God using the same metaphor used by the disciples and God replies to Jesus with the metaphor. Great going; all for simply asking for knowledge.

Why ask in metaphors something which could be asked directly?

warner

Peace

I have given below 2 definitions for ?metaphor? and a definition for ?sihr?.

metaphor

1 a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money); broadly figurative language

metaphor
2. A figure of speech in which a word is used for only part of its meaning, as mountain in a mountain of work refers only to the large size of a mountain, not to any of its other features (dirt, stone, vegetation).

Sihr
1 Turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner

We should not confuse miracles/signs with magic. Miracles/signs mentioned in the Quraan are real and magic is not. The signs are truth from Allah and the magician?s tricks are falsehood. Some of us accept the miracles in the Quraan literally and accept they are real and truth from our Lord. Some say they are not real but they are metaphors. A metaphor is ?transferring/turning the manner or quality of one object or action to some other object or action?. Which is very much similar to the definition of Sihr given above Turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner.

So maybe when someone calls a sign in the Quraan a metaphor they may be calling it Sihr/Magic just like many verses such as the following say.

5 110

Yusuf Ali Then will Allah say "O Jesus the son of Mary! recount my favor to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom the Law and the Gospel. And behold! thou makest out of clay as it were the figure of a bird by My leave and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave and thou healest those born blind and the lepers by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the Clear Signs and the unbelievers among them said `This is nothing but evident magic'.

Transliteration Iz qa_lalla_hu ya_ 'isabna maryamazkur ni'mati 'alaika wa 'ala_ wa_lidatik(a), iz ayyattuka bi ru_hil qudusi, tukallimun na_sa fil mahdi wa kahla_(n), wa iz 'allamtukal kita_ba wal hikmata wat taura_ta wal injil(a), wa iz takhluqu minat tini ka hai'atit tairi bi izni fa tanfukhu fiha_ fa taku_nu tairam bi izni wa tubri'ul akmaha wal abrasa bi izni, wa iz tukhrijul mauta bi izni, wa iz kafaftu bani isra_'ila 'anka iz ji'tahum bil bayyina_ti fa qa_lal lazina kafaru_ minhum in ha_za_ illa_ sihrum mubin(un).

61 6

And when Jesus son of Mary said O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One. Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say This is mere magic.

Wa iz qa_la isabnu maryama ya_ bani isra_ ila ini rasu_lul la_hi ilaikum mushad diqal lima_ baina yaday ya minat taura_ti wa mubas siran birasu_liy yail min badis muhu_ ahmad falam ma_ ja_ahum bil bay yina_ti qa_lu_ ha_za_ sihrum mubin

unknownuser

Sihr
1 Turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner

Here are some more verses to reflect what the sihr/magic is

117
And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods-- and His dominion (extends) on the water-- that He might manifest to you, which of you is best in action, and if you say, surely you shall be raised up after death, those who disbelieve would certainly say This is nothing but clear magic.

3443
When Our Clear Signs are rehearsed to them, they say, "This is only a man who wishes to hinder you from the (worship) which your fathers practised." And they say, "This is only a falsehood invented!" and the Unbelievers say of the Truth when it comes to them, "This is nothing but evident magic!"

I see, so its a habit of the unbelievers that whenever Wahy come to them they say its a magic. hmm....

2836
When Moses came to them with Our clear signs, they said "This is nothing but sorcery/magic faked up never did we hear the like among our fathers of old!"

Never did we hear or see such magic? confused

467
And when Our clear revelations are recited unto them, those who disbelieve say of the Truth when it reacheth them This is mere magic.

Ok, so disbelievers said the same thing to Prophet Mohammed as they said to every Prophet that Wahy is only a magic. hmm...

4330
And now that the Truth hath come unto them they say This is mere magic, and lo! we are disbelievers therein.

Ok, so basically Wahy is magic!

541
542

The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split. But if they see a Sign, they turn away, and say, "This is (but) transient magic."

Though I couldn't understand but whether its true that Moon was splited? And when people saw it they said its magic?

Now read 616

61 6
And when Jesus son of Mary said O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One. Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say This is mere magic.

You see magic is wahy, this is what people used to think.

warner

Peace Hamsa

Sihr has many meanings including magic as Arnold showed in many of his posts and majority of those meanings are within the definition I posted above. Also ?Metaphor? comes from Greek, metapherein transfer, f. as META- + pherein to bear.

The Quraan we read and analyze is the same revelation/inspiration/wahy which came to the Messenger 1400 odd years back. When the people around the Messenger said ?this is magic or not real? then and after 1400 years someone saying ?it is not real? is not different. Wahy is the Quraan.

Also people called the inspiration/wahy as well as the signs/miracles as sihr/magic/not real.

Does the verse say splitting the moon ?

unknownuser

Does the verse say splitting the moon ?

I dont know but that was my question ;D

541 Hilali/Khan The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder (the people of Makkah requested Prophet Muhammad SAW to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon).

I believe this is not possible to split the moon but as you can see people do believe in this. Would you please explain the literal meaning of that verse bro.