no miracles?
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anyway, these messengers came with signs, they showed signs, if they weren't cane turning to snakes or splitting seas or resurrecting the dead, then what were they?
i've read many times that disbelievers didn't believe in clear signs, now what were they?peace nerspi,
I believe that the "the signs" are found in this universe. The messengers may point them out to us, but they are already there for all to see. Everything that happens and everything that exists has signs in it, some clear and other unclear. I think they're signs pointing to the right path and to the truth. Some people choose to ignore them or use the unclear signs to spread their false ideas.
look at the verse RasulHamsa posted above. Everything is a sign from God for those who know. -
okay, then i wanna see miracles too.
See then!
2164
Surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of night and day and the ship that runs in the sea with profit to men, and the water God sends down from heaven therewith reviving the earth after it is dead and His scattering abroad in it all manner of crawling thing, and the turning about of the winds and the clouds compelled between heaven and earth -- surely there are signs for a people having understanding.
453
Verily in the heavens and the earth, are Signs for those who believe.
454And in the creation of yourselves and the fact that animals are scattered (through the earth), are Signs for those of assured Faith.
And also see all occurances of the word Ayah.
Peace, Hamsa
Note I am not presenting these verses to support my point of view and my undrstanding. (God forbid)
But Just to understand and reflect more and to get more wisdom from all you bros.edited to add note
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These are verses of the Qur'an; a Book that makes things clear (271)
Good point!
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I know. shshshsh. Just remove the sentence starting "Unless"
No no, I dont want to remove that sentence, but want to understand that story -*
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Peace all,
The fact is that some of the stories given in al-qur'aan CANNOT have a metaphorical interpretation. I gave the examples in an earlier post and everyone can see that no one has offered a metaphorical interpretation of those stories WITHOUT VIOLATING QUR'AANIC GRAMMAR, LOGIC, AND CONTEXT and without coming up with a nonsensical English rendering.
The story of a person dead for a hundred years and then resurrected from his bones CANNOT have a metaphorical interpretation in the context. The story of some people sleeping for 309 years and then waking up CANNOT have a metaphorical interpretation in the context. There are lessons to be learned and signs in those stories without metaphorical interpretations.
Some stories can have a metaphorical interpretation (like some people being turned into pigs and apes) but even ONE story in al-qur'aan that goes against the "commonly observable" phenomenon and cannot be interpretated metaphorically is enough evidence/proof of possibility of a literal "miracle".
Having said that, I agree that we should not keep pursuing allegorical signs per 37, and instead devote more of our attention and energy to the correct interpretation of the fundamental/law giving signs. No more comments on this subject from me in this thread.
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Peace brother Tanveer,
I completely understand your point but let us understand the metaphorical meanings as well, may be we get more wisdom. And I completely agree with your last paragraph.
God bless, Hamsa
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I don't believe that everything in the Holy Quran is literal, and 37 confirms that some verses are indeed allegorical. A perfect example is
And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves (3103)
Nobody believes there is an actual rope hanging from the sky which all Muslims must firmly hold onto. The inner meaning of the verse is that the Rope of Allah refers to the Holy Quran and Sunnat, and Muslims must strictly stick to these, otherwise they will be divided.
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Peace Samia , Nun
Can we translate the yamini in the following verses as strength/ability?
What is the Arabic word for left hand/left side?
16 48
Pickthall Have they not observed all thing that Allah hath created, how their shadows incline to the right and to the left, making prostration unto Allah, and they are lowly?Transliteration Awalam yarau ila_ ma_ khalaqalla_hu min syai'iy yatafayya'u zila_luhu_ 'anil yamini wasy syama_'ili sujjadal lilla_hi wa hum da_khiru_n(a).
18 18
Yusuf Ali Thou wouldst have deemed them awake whilst they were asleep and We turned them on their right and their left sides their dog stretching forth his two forelegs on the threshold if thou hadst come up on to them thou wouldst have certainly turned back from them in flight and wouldst certainly have been filled with terror of them.Transliteration Wa tahsabuhum aiqa_zaw wa hum ruqu_d(uw), wa nuqallibuhum za_tal yamini wa za_tasy syima_l(i), wa kalbuhum ba_situn zira_'aihi bil wasid(i), law-ittala'ta 'alaihim lawallaita minhum fira_raw wa lamuli'ta minhum ru'ba_(n).
34 15
Yusuf Ali There was for Saba' aforetime a Sign in their homeland two Gardens to the right and to the left. Eat of the Sustenance (provided) by your Lord and be grateful to Him a territory fair and happy and a Lord Oft-Forgiving!Transliteration Laqad ka_na lisaba in fi maskanihim a_yah jan nata_ni ay yaminiw wa sima_l kulu_ mir rizqi rab bikum was kuru_lah bal datun tay yibatuw wa rab bun gafu_r
17 71
Pickthall On the day when We shall summon ill men with their record, whoso is given his book in his right hand such will read their book and they will not be wronged a shred.Transliteration Yauma nad'u_ kulla una_sim bi ima_mihim, faman u_tiya kita_bahu_ bi yaminihi fa ula_'ika yaqra'u_na kita_bahum wa la_ yuzlamu_na fatila_(n).
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Peace Samia , Nun
Can we translate the yamini in the following verses as strength/ability?
What is the Arabic word for left hand/left side?
All these verses, save the last one, mention "yameen" AND "shimaal left", so I do not think you can choose the meaning of strength/ability here for "yameen"
As for the last one not his right hand (what is special about the right hand)? Why would good deeds be carried by the right hand and the bad ones by the left hand?
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Peace Aaron
physical if you are dirty then wash yourself
spiritual if you are a low state then elevate yourself
How do we tell someone ?if they are dirty to get a wash?, I mean literally, since if we say ?if you are dirty then wash yourself? will mean ?if you are a low state then elevate yourself?. That will create too many elevated people with poor hygiene.
Is using metaphor in a sentence and talking in complete metaphors same ? I cannot imagine two people having a great conversation in metaphors.
According to the explanation based on metaphors, in 5112 the disciples start talking to Jesus in metaphors , Jesus replies in metaphors and then Jesus talks to God using the same metaphor used by the disciples and God replies to Jesus with the metaphor. Great going; all for simply asking for knowledge.
Why ask in metaphors something which could be asked directly?
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Peace
I have given below 2 definitions for ?metaphor? and a definition for ?sihr?.
metaphor
1 a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money); broadly figurative language
metaphor
2. A figure of speech in which a word is used for only part of its meaning, as mountain in a mountain of work refers only to the large size of a mountain, not to any of its other features (dirt, stone, vegetation).Sihr
1 Turning of a thing from its proper manner to another mannerWe should not confuse miracles/signs with magic. Miracles/signs mentioned in the Quraan are real and magic is not. The signs are truth from Allah and the magician?s tricks are falsehood. Some of us accept the miracles in the Quraan literally and accept they are real and truth from our Lord. Some say they are not real but they are metaphors. A metaphor is ?transferring/turning the manner or quality of one object or action to some other object or action?. Which is very much similar to the definition of Sihr given above Turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner.
So maybe when someone calls a sign in the Quraan a metaphor they may be calling it Sihr/Magic just like many verses such as the following say.
5 110
Yusuf Ali Then will Allah say "O Jesus the son of Mary! recount my favor to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom the Law and the Gospel. And behold! thou makest out of clay as it were the figure of a bird by My leave and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave and thou healest those born blind and the lepers by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the Clear Signs and the unbelievers among them said `This is nothing but evident magic'.
Transliteration Iz qa_lalla_hu ya_ 'isabna maryamazkur ni'mati 'alaika wa 'ala_ wa_lidatik(a), iz ayyattuka bi ru_hil qudusi, tukallimun na_sa fil mahdi wa kahla_(n), wa iz 'allamtukal kita_ba wal hikmata wat taura_ta wal injil(a), wa iz takhluqu minat tini ka hai'atit tairi bi izni fa tanfukhu fiha_ fa taku_nu tairam bi izni wa tubri'ul akmaha wal abrasa bi izni, wa iz tukhrijul mauta bi izni, wa iz kafaftu bani isra_'ila 'anka iz ji'tahum bil bayyina_ti fa qa_lal lazina kafaru_ minhum in ha_za_ illa_ sihrum mubin(un).
61 6
And when Jesus son of Mary said O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One. Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say This is mere magic.
Wa iz qa_la isabnu maryama ya_ bani isra_ ila ini rasu_lul la_hi ilaikum mushad diqal lima_ baina yaday ya minat taura_ti wa mubas siran birasu_liy yail min badis muhu_ ahmad falam ma_ ja_ahum bil bay yina_ti qa_lu_ ha_za_ sihrum mubin
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Sihr
1 Turning of a thing from its proper manner to another mannerHere are some more verses to reflect what the sihr/magic is
117
And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods-- and His dominion (extends) on the water-- that He might manifest to you, which of you is best in action, and if you say, surely you shall be raised up after death, those who disbelieve would certainly say This is nothing but clear magic.3443
When Our Clear Signs are rehearsed to them, they say, "This is only a man who wishes to hinder you from the (worship) which your fathers practised." And they say, "This is only a falsehood invented!" and the Unbelievers say of the Truth when it comes to them, "This is nothing but evident magic!"I see, so its a habit of the unbelievers that whenever Wahy come to them they say its a magic. hmm....
2836
When Moses came to them with Our clear signs, they said "This is nothing but sorcery/magic faked up never did we hear the like among our fathers of old!"Never did we hear or see such magic? confused
467
And when Our clear revelations are recited unto them, those who disbelieve say of the Truth when it reacheth them This is mere magic.Ok, so disbelievers said the same thing to Prophet Mohammed as they said to every Prophet that Wahy is only a magic. hmm...
4330
And now that the Truth hath come unto them they say This is mere magic, and lo! we are disbelievers therein.Ok, so basically Wahy is magic!
541
542The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split. But if they see a Sign, they turn away, and say, "This is (but) transient magic."
Though I couldn't understand but whether its true that Moon was splited? And when people saw it they said its magic?
Now read 616
61 6
And when Jesus son of Mary said O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One. Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say This is mere magic.You see magic is wahy, this is what people used to think.
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Peace Hamsa
Sihr has many meanings including magic as Arnold showed in many of his posts and majority of those meanings are within the definition I posted above. Also ?Metaphor? comes from Greek, metapherein transfer, f. as META- + pherein to bear.
The Quraan we read and analyze is the same revelation/inspiration/wahy which came to the Messenger 1400 odd years back. When the people around the Messenger said ?this is magic or not real? then and after 1400 years someone saying ?it is not real? is not different. Wahy is the Quraan.
Also people called the inspiration/wahy as well as the signs/miracles as sihr/magic/not real.
Does the verse say splitting the moon ?
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Does the verse say splitting the moon ?
I dont know but that was my question ;D
541 Hilali/Khan The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder (the people of Makkah requested Prophet Muhammad SAW to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon).
I believe this is not possible to split the moon but as you can see people do believe in this. Would you please explain the literal meaning of that verse bro.
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Peace
I have given below 2 definitions for ?metaphor? and a definition for ?sihr?.
metaphor
1 a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money); broadly figurative language
metaphor
2. A figure of speech in which a word is used for only part of its meaning, as mountain in a mountain of work refers only to the large size of a mountain, not to any of its other features (dirt, stone, vegetation).Sihr
1 Turning of a thing from its proper manner to another mannerWe should not confuse miracles/signs with magic. Miracles/signs mentioned in the Quraan are real and magic is not. The signs are truth from Allah and the magician?s tricks are falsehood. Some of us accept the miracles in the Quraan literally and accept they are real and truth from our Lord. Some say they are not real but they are metaphors. A metaphor is ?transferring/turning the manner or quality of one object or action to some other object or action?. Which is very much similar to the definition of Sihr given above Turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner.
So maybe when someone calls a sign in the Quraan a metaphor they may be calling it Sihr/Magic just like many verses such as the following say.
5 110
Yusuf Ali Then will Allah say "O Jesus the son of Mary! recount my favor to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom the Law and the Gospel. And behold! thou makest out of clay as it were the figure of a bird by My leave and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave and thou healest those born blind and the lepers by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the Clear Signs and the unbelievers among them said `This is nothing but evident magic'.
Transliteration Iz qa_lalla_hu ya_ 'isabna maryamazkur ni'mati 'alaika wa 'ala_ wa_lidatik(a), iz ayyattuka bi ru_hil qudusi, tukallimun na_sa fil mahdi wa kahla_(n), wa iz 'allamtukal kita_ba wal hikmata wat taura_ta wal injil(a), wa iz takhluqu minat tini ka hai'atit tairi bi izni fa tanfukhu fiha_ fa taku_nu tairam bi izni wa tubri'ul akmaha wal abrasa bi izni, wa iz tukhrijul mauta bi izni, wa iz kafaftu bani isra_'ila 'anka iz ji'tahum bil bayyina_ti fa qa_lal lazina kafaru_ minhum in ha_za_ illa_ sihrum mubin(un).
61 6
And when Jesus son of Mary said O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One. Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say This is mere magic.
Wa iz qa_la isabnu maryama ya_ bani isra_ ila ini rasu_lul la_hi ilaikum mushad diqal lima_ baina yaday ya minat taura_ti wa mubas siran birasu_liy yail min badis muhu_ ahmad falam ma_ ja_ahum bil bay yina_ti qa_lu_ ha_za_ sihrum mubin
Good post bro
Thanks
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peace Warner,
So maybe when someone calls a sign in the Quraan a metaphor they may be calling it Sihr/Magic just like many verses such as the following say.
Saying that the verses are metaphorical doesn't mean that they are like magic (false).
Let's assume for a moment that you are right and I am deluded.
You say something, which is obviously the truth. You point out to me a sign from god. I, however, am too occupied with my emotions and "lowly desires" that I think that what you're saying is blasphemy. I say that you are twisting the truth, and playing tricks on me like a magician would.
That's what the verses which mention people rejecting god's signs mean. But the above has nothing to do with literal or figurative language. That has to do with the method you choose to point out that sign to me. You may say, "you should use your head" instead of "you should think." That doesn't change your message and that has nothing do with whether I reject it or not. -
Peace All,
Great clear posts by brother Warner, I'm reall happy to learn about the "Sihr".
Dear fellow Monotheists, no offence, this is just what I think,
I see that "Turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner" has happened by some interpretators, since many generations.
I think saying that the
"miracles/(clear signs) didn't actully happen" = "the actual happening of miracles is explained by some other normal way"
(That is why they have to explain it, using normal ways, so much to make it seem otherwise.)Now the same for magic in magic shows - it is falsehood that it actually happened as seen,
"magic didn't actually happen" = "the actual happening of magic is explained by some other normal way"
Therefore, it is THEY who explain the miracles/(clear signs) as magic (falsehood) that is why they seek to explain it in other normal ways. I would not believe that the clear signs/miracles that God shown through His prophets are magic/falsehood - I would rather believe that it happened IN TRUTH as (clear signs)/miracles.
I'm sorry if I happen to be wrong, God knows best, or if my words offend any of you, May God forgive.
Anyway, I'm happy that we believe in the same One God handshake - that is clearly more important than these smaller topics.
May God Guide.
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How do we tell someone ?if they are dirty to get a wash?, I mean literally, since if we say ?if you are dirty then wash yourself? will mean ?if you are a low state then elevate yourself?. That will create too many elevated people with poor hygiene.
so people need god to send them a book to tell them to have a bath?
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Saying that the verses are metaphorical doesn't mean that they are like magic (false).
I Agree. Like in the verse (3103) about "rope".
But if one tries to explain a "clear sign" or miracle as some normal thing, or that it actually didn't happen as seen/said, then it's same saying that it's magic (false) as explained in my previous post.
For more proof, I would like to explain that the equation in my previous post is from the rule that
If
a = m + b
and
a = n + b
THEN m = n (that is why I concluded as in my previous post)
For example
5 = m + 2 Therefore, m = 5-2 = 3
5 = n + 2 Therefore, n = 5-2 = 3
Therefore n=m (Considering my previous post, If one says "No miracles", it clearly means = "Magic", that is why they have to explain it in other ways like explaining a magic trick.)
I'm sorry if I happen to be wrong, God knows best, or if my words offend any of you, May God forgive.
Anyway, I'm happy that we believe in the same One God - that is clearly more important than these smaller topics.
May God Guide.