Who built the kaaba that is in Mecca?

unknownuser

Peace all,

To the new breed of who claim that Kabba is not in Saudi and there is no such thing as Hajj to Mecca. Few simple questions.

(1) When did the concept that the kabba is in Mecca first arise? As it is such a huge part of the faith it must have some origins at a specific point in history. There must have been some documentation regards this!

(2) If Hajj is not in Mecca then when did this event to start to take place without even a tiny footnote in the history.

Any historical references? I have not been able to find the slightest evidence anywhere, except suddenly in the 21st century some bizzare half baked thories appearing on this site.

The Muslim history from Mohammed's time is reasonably documented, yet there is not the slightest trace of these monumental alleged corruptions recorded anywhere. Any historical evidence will be greatly appreciated.
regards

The burden of proof is on those who claim that the so called Kaaba in Mecca is the "kaaba" mentioned in the Qur'aan, where hajj is supposed to be performed. The proof should be authentic, based on either the Qur'aan or authentic archeological evidence (309, 4021, 4082, 4710), and not on unverifiable hearsays and unverifiable history.

There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a city by the name of Mecca, or the so called Kaaba in Mecca, during the revelation of the Qur'aan.

I have not been able to find the slightest evidence anywhere, except suddenly in the 21st century some bizzare half baked thories appearing on this site.

The Muslim history from Mohammed's time is reasonably documented, yet there is not the slightest trace of these monumental alleged corruptions recorded anywhere.

The MOST AUTHENTIC evidence that the present Kaaba in Mecca is not the one where hajj is supposed to be performed is in the Qur'aan. The present Kaaba in Mecca fails ALL the criteria of the restricted house/"albayt alharaam", which PROVES that it cannot be what is meant by The God in the Qur'aan. For the Qur'aanic evidence, please see below in the quoted excerpts.

For those who are believers/"mumineen" and forethoughtful/"muttaqeen", the Qur'aanic evidence should be enough. For those who are not, please go through the following links for some archeological and historical evidences

Following posts are from an internet debate on this subject

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/41a51328bdca3c80?

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/730fe6e654dd9242?

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/51a91e7c64b57fb6?

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/221ffb07a5dcb04b?

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/ebe1e5f7b9e67f0e?

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/170416c761b02771?

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/45468e83c8d780b4?

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/4a3c6d6a13f7df1c?

Excerpts from the above

"The best and most sound evidence would be evidence from the great
reading/"quran" itself. For example, we know from the great reading that
"ka'ba" is itself the restriction house/"al-bayt al-7aram" (597).
Clearly, the restriction house/"al-bayt al-7aram" where people can
assemble in safety (2125) inside it (397) cannot be some room-sized
stone cube with no windows and an inaccessible elevated door. Also,
everyone is well aware that there are absolutely no signs from Ibrahim
or anyone else inside the so-called Kaaba, so this is another reason why
it cannot be what is talked about in 397. The above clear and
indisputable facts make it a logical and physical impossibility for the
present stone cube to be what is meant by The God in the great reading.
Thus, the only possible conclusion is that the present so-called Kaaba is a
man-made fraud that is not authorized by The God."

"As clear from the great reading, the house's location is defined as
follows

First and foremost it is anywhere the people who administer it do not
setup any partners with The God (2226).
In this location, the people who administer it invite ALL PEOPLE to
the "hajj" (2227), not just people from a certain religion.
They purify it from all forms of idolatry (2226).
The house is not just a place of assembly but it is a SAFE place of
assembly (2125).

The house in the location presently called Mecca doesn't satisfy any of
the above requirements.

The people who administer it take their clergy as partners with The
God that decree in their "din" (obligation) what The God has not
authorized. They take as a partner with The God idols in the form of a
stone cube and a so-called Black Stone that they revere and adore. They
take as partner with The God the dead prophet who they believe will put
them in heaven by interceding on their behalf.
The people who administer it do not invite ALL PEOPLE to it but only
so-called Muslims.
The house is not purified and it has many forms of idolatry and
associated pagan rituals. The idols include the stone cube and the Black
Stone (and even a footprint idol). The pagan rituals include spinning
seven times around the cube and kissing and fondling the Black Stone.
Other pagan rituals that are also related as we saw to pagan newborn
idol birthing celebrations include running between two hills to look for
water for a newborn. All this while being dressed in newborn-style
wraps.
The house is certainly not a safe place. Any monotheist (even Ibrahim
himself) who tries to purify the house by destroying those revered
stones or even simply telling people not to revere stones would
certainly be torn to pieces by the angry mob of pagans who love to
revere such stones. You would probably suffer the same exact fate if you
stand in the middle of a Hindu temple and tell the "pious" mob not to
revere stone idols. Is this the attitude of monotheists or pagans? If
you and I go there and proclaim the obvious fact that the Saudi monarchy
is corrupt we would probably be arrested, tortured or worse. Does this
sound like a safe place to you?

So where to go? It really doesn't matter where the house is as long as
the requirements above are met. Remember that "hajj" is only decreed if
you can find a way to it (397). Thus, if those requirements are not met
anywhere then there can be no "hajj". If Mecca or any other place in the
future satisfies the above requirements then I would go there."

The complete discussion can be found at

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/browse_thread/thread/783540f26de114a0/2a42085a49ad9a9a?lnk=raot#2a42085a49ad9a9a

Please see the following threads on this forum, which also contain mention of some archeological and historical evidences relevant to the issues being discussed in this thread

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10259.0

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11105.0

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9527.0

(1) When did the concept that the kabba is in Mecca first arise? As it is such a huge part of the faith it must have some origins at a specific point in history. There must have been some documentation regards this!

(2) If Hajj is not in Mecca then when did this event to start to take place without even a tiny footnote in the history.

Based on the above presented evidences, the so called Kaaba in Mecca and the hajj incorporating the extra-qur'aanic pagan rituals, practices, and customs at this so called Kaaba could have originated only after the death of the Prophet. Exactly when is irrelevant.

unknownuser

Peace Respected Ayman,

A building is not a must. One can have a court setup in open air. Does this make it not "the court"?

Walls, floors and ceiling don't contribute anything to justice.

Only the building doesn't contribute, but it wouldn't be wise if someone say because building doesn't contribute thus is prohibited? May be in future we could have mobile courts in the vans.......but today we only see courts' buildings. BTW building does contribute, this earth is very physical and it house the system of life.

If people who insitute obedience decide to meet outside in a field somewhere it is OK.

YES, if they will, but to say they should only will for that and shouldn't will to have the buildings is very strange demand.

A "masjid" is an institution while the Mosque is a gathering place. Even the Mosque doesn't have to be a building. In Egypt, I remember going to open air Mosques which weren't housed in a building.

I have also seen such temporary mosques. Where people cannot build a permamnent building due to some reasons they just spread a floor or make marking wall and that place is also a permanent if they call it a Masjid. In the offices people do have certian rooms for the prayer but no one call that room a Masjid.

I think that the FM translation is better than many others which are out there. The odd one out of course is "temples" because it is the wrong translation. Also, I am not sure exactly about the word "swami3". Here is a little more correct translation (corrected part underlined)

The ones who were driven out of their homes without justice, except that they said ?Our Lord is God!? And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves, then many places of gathering, and markets, and institutions of learning, and institutions of obedience where the name of God is frequently mentioned, would have been destroyed. God will give victory to those who support Him. God is Powerful, Noble.

Places of gathering = Places
markets = Places
Institutions of learning = Places
Institutions of obediences = Places

salam

unknownuser

Hello all

don't you reckon that those who call the Quran the reading then later on tell us "the Qur'aanic evidence " are conradicting themselves rotfl rotfl

ayman

Peace Hamsa,

Only the building doesn't contribute, but it wouldn't be wise if someone say because building doesn't contribute thus is prohibited?

I didn't say it was prohibited. I said it is not important. So we agree that it cannot be the primary meaning of "masjid".

May be in future we could have mobile courts in the vans.......but today we only see courts' buildings. BTW building does contribute, this earth is very physical and it house the system of life.
YES, if they will, but to say they should only will for that and shouldn't will to have the buildings is very strange demand. I have also seen such temporary mosques. Where people cannot build a permamnent building due to some reasons they just spread a floor or make marking wall and that place is also a permanent if they call it a Masjid. In the offices people do have certian rooms for the prayer but no one call that room a Masjid.

You seem to acknowledge that the physical apsect of "walls, floors and ceiling" cannot the primary meaning of "masjid" and are not what constitutes a "masjid". The important aspects of something are what defines it. So tell me what do you think is the most important aspect of a "masjid" according to the great reading?

The ones who were driven out of their homes without justice, except that they said ?Our Lord is God!? And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves, then many places of gathering, and markets, and institutions of learning, and institutions of obedience where the name of God is frequently mentioned, would have been destroyed. God will give victory to those who support Him. God is Powerful, Noble.
Places of gathering = Places
markets = Places
Institutions of learning = Places
Institutions of obediences = Places

I do not know for sure the meaning of so I can't say if it is a place and it is not in the underlined part that I translated.

Institutions are not places. For example an institution of learning such as a university or a school is not defined by its walls and ceilings. Nobody thinks of Harvard University as some buildings. Similarly, no one thinks of the institution of government as a building. People think of the institution of government, for example, as the executive, legislative and judicial branches not as some walls and ceilings. This is perfectly normal and logical.

Superficial people make the building the most important aspect. In all such cases, they inevitably end up idolizing the building. For example, Jews make the Temple the most important focal point and rebuilding it the key to redemption. Similarly, sectarians make a stone cube the most important focal point and spinning around it the key to having all sins forgiven and returning as a newborn. This is what pagans throughout the ages have done. On the other hand, monotheists are not superficial.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Peace Respected Ayman,

Peace Hamsa,

I didn't say it was prohibited. I said it is not important. So we agree that it cannot be the primary meaning of "masjid".
You seem to acknowledge that the physical aspect of "walls, floors and ceiling" cannot the primary meaning of "masjid" and are not what constitutes a "masjid". The important aspects of something are what defines it.

I agree that not everywhere in the quran masjid means a mosque.

So tell me what do you think is the most important aspect of a "masjid" according to the great reading?

I totally disagree with the traditionalists that masjid is a place of 5x prayers. What I could understand from the quran is that msjid is a Parliament/court/secretariat/and all the institutions of a government that is based on God's laws. This is my overall undertanding of the masjid, I am not able to provide specific verses but of course am learning the quran.

I do not know for sure the meaning of so I can't say if it is a place and it is not in the underlined part that I translated.

I have compared 16 translations and seen the lexicon as well, so what I could understand is that verse is talking about the places.

Institutions are not places. For example an institution of learning such as a university or a school is not defined by its walls and ceilings. Nobody thinks of Harvard University as some buildings. Similarly, no one thinks of the institution of government as a building. People think of the institution of government, for example, as the executive, legislative and judicial branches not as some walls and ceilings. This is perfectly normal and logical.

Only one thing I respectfully disagree with you is that your translation for masjid is same for all the verses in the quran. I would have agreed with you had I not seen 2240 that clearly speak about physical places.

All the institution you mentioned related with places, may be for you the most appropriate example is "institution of marriage"

Superficial people make the building the most important aspect. In all such cases, they inevitably end up idolizing the building. For example, Jews make the Temple the most important focal point and rebuilding it the key to redemption. Similarly, sectarians make a stone cube the most important focal point and spinning around it the key to having all sins forgiven and returning as a newborn. This is what pagans throughout the ages have done. On the other hand, monotheists are not superficial.

I completely agree with you here and I also find it pure shirk whatever Muslims do in the mosque of Mecca.

salaam, Hamsa

unknownuser

AOA

To the new breed of who claim that Kabba is not in Saudi and there is no such thing as Hajj to Mecca. Few simple questions.

(1) When did the concept that the kabba is in Mecca first arise? As it is such a huge part of the faith it must have some origins at a specific point in history. There must have been some documentation regards this!

(2) If Hajj is not in Mecca then when did this event to start to take place without even a tiny footnote in the history.

Any historical references? I have not been able to find the slightest evidence anywhere, except suddenly in the 21st century some bizzare half baked thories appearing on this site.

The Muslim history from Mohammed's time is reasonably documented, yet there is not the slightest trace of these monumental alleged corruptions recorded anywhere. Any historical evidence will be greatly appreciated.
regards

Hello

They provided none and they have none

Salam

unknownuser

Peace all,

Visible signs and proofs have come from the Lord and some still cannot see !

Perfect example of the following signs

6104 "Visible proofs have come to you from your Lord; so whoever can see, does so for himself, and whoever is blinded, does the same. I am not a watcher over you."

7186 Whoever God misguides, then there is none to guide him; and He leaves them blindly wandering in their transgression.

1043 And there are some of them who look at you; but can you guide the blind, if they do not see?

2246 Have they not roamed the land and had hearts with which to comprehend and ears with which to hear? No, it is not the sight which is blind, but it is the hearts that are in the chests that are blind.

2781 Nor can you guide the blind from their misguidance. You can only make those who believe in Our revelations hear you, for they have submitted.

3053 Nor can you enlighten the blind from their straying; but you can only make those who believe in Our revelations listen, for they have submitted.

4340 Can you make the deaf hear, or can you guide the blind and those who are far astray?

4723 These are the ones whom God has cursed and thus He made them deaf and blinded their sight.

This is what I have to say to such people

3936 Is God not enough for His servant? And they frighten you with others beside Him. And whomever God sends astray, then for him there will be no guide.

4066 Say "I have been forbidden from serving those whom you are calling upon besides God, since the proofs have come to me from my Lord. And I have been commanded to submit to the Lord of the worlds."

Raj-ah

Samia

I do not think you understood what he is asking about, because the reply does not provide the answer. He is quoting a verse that confirms no messenger was sent to the people of Muhammad before him; so what was Ibraheem doing there in Mecca, and whom was he inviting to the "house" of God.

Dear Samia; I understood what he was asking but before directly answering him on the verse i was trying to establish that it is only Mecca that fulfills all the Quranic Prophecies and rules laid down in Quran for Hajj, since you and he have not commented on that; therefore I take it for granted that Mecca is the place for HAjj and you agree with it.

The question which you have put up is actually on the basis, what I, Ahmed Bahgat and few others at this forum are trying to tell, "Without reading whole Quran and understanding it and just picking up verses and translating it by root method or word to word translation leads us away from Quran and word of Allah, despite bringing us nearer".

The verse says
Nor were you on the slope of the mount when We called. But it is mercy from your Lord, so that you may warn a people who received no warner before you, perhaps they may take heed.

Now go to the first verses of this Sura

We recite to you herein some history of Moses and Pharaoh, truthfully, for the benefit of people who believe.

The story of Moses and Pharoh is being explained to the Arabs/Meccans through Muhammad so they may get lessons from this story.
This is not only place where Allah has used this way of speech, for example in Surah Hood, in Surah Imran 44 and Surah Yousaf 102, similar type of wording is used please read them carefully

This is news from the past that we reveal to you. You had no knowledge about them - neither you, nor your people - before this. Therefore, be patient. The ultimate victory belongs to the righteous.

This is news from the past that we reveal to you. You were not there when they drew their raffles to select Mary's guardian. You were not present when they argued with one another.
This is news from the past that we reveal to you. You were not present when they made their unanimous decision (to throw Joseph in the well), as they conspired together

So what these verses tell us, Clearly these verses are trying to establish that Nor Muhammad niether the one who were listening were present at the time these events took place, so how could MUhammad know about these events in detail, that is BECUASE Allah had Contact with Muhammad and it is Allah who has shown the previous events to Muhammad as it were happening just before his eyes.

Now we can come back to the Vesre in discussion

Nor were you on the slope of the mount when We called. But it is mercy from your Lord, so that you may warn a people who received no warner before you, perhaps they may take heed.

Muhammad is telling the Story of MOSES, Moses was not assigned for these people directly, niether was anyone else between the times of Moses and Muhammad assigned as a warner to these people directly, Muhammad was the first one assigned as a Warner to these people who could tell them the story of Moses. Therefore Quran correctly says "So you can warn a people who received no warner before you" (to tell them the story of Moses).

First Abraham was not assigned directly for Meccans, second he was before Moses therefore he had no chance to warn Arabs regarding Moses story.
Abraham rebuilt/rennovated the Kaaba that is in Mecca as ordered by Allah, and was inviting the People of Allah to the house of Allah.
Between time of Ismail and Muhammad no prophet was assigned to these people who could tell the story of Moses to warn these people.

Now Samia you; Agentxxx or any one else if has any proof regarding Kaaba not been in Mecca and built by Abraham then you should bring it forward and shall not fell prey to Jewish or any other propoganda.
But before commenting please read the both posts of mine.

unknownuser

I understood what he was asking but before directly answering him on the verse i was trying to establish that it is only Mecca that fulfills all the Quranic Prophecies and rules laid down in Quran for Hajj, since you and he have not commented on that; therefore I take it for granted that Mecca is the place for HAjj and you agree with it.

Salam bro

This is obvious man, when we presenet a strong argument they never reply to it, they just skip it while they always request from us to reply to every argument they presenet, what a joke

Salam mate

unknownuser

Samia
Dear Samia; I understood what he was asking but before directly answering him on the verse i was trying to establish that it is only Mecca that fulfills all the Quranic Prophecies and rules laid down in Quran for Hajj, since you and he have not commented on that; therefore I take it for granted that Mecca is the place for HAjj and you agree with it.

The question which you have put up is actually on the basis, what I, Ahmed Bahgat and few others at this forum are trying to tell, "Without reading whole Quran and understanding it and just picking up verses and translating it by root method or word to word translation leads us away from Quran and word of Allah, despite bringing us nearer".

The verse says
Nor were you on the slope of the mount when We called. But it is mercy from your Lord, so that you may warn a people who received no warner before you, perhaps they may take heed.

Now go to the first verses of this Sura

We recite to you herein some history of Moses and Pharaoh, truthfully, for the benefit of people who believe.

The story of Moses and Pharoh is being explained to the Arabs/Meccans through Muhammad so they may get lessons from this story.
This is not only place where Allah has used this way of speech, for example in Surah Hood, in Surah Imran 44 and Surah Yousaf 102, similar type of wording is used please read them carefully

This is news from the past that we reveal to you. You had no knowledge about them - neither you, nor your people - before this. Therefore, be patient. The ultimate victory belongs to the righteous.

This is news from the past that we reveal to you. You were not there when they drew their raffles to select Mary's guardian. You were not present when they argued with one another.
This is news from the past that we reveal to you. You were not present when they made their unanimous decision (to throw Joseph in the well), as they conspired together

So what these verses tell us, Clearly these verses are trying to establish that Nor Muhammad niether the one who were listening were present at the time these events took place, so how could MUhammad know about these events in detail, that is BECUASE Allah had Contact with Muhammad and it is Allah who has shown the previous events to Muhammad as it were happening just before his eyes.

Now we can come back to the Vesre in discussion

Nor were you on the slope of the mount when We called. But it is mercy from your Lord, so that you may warn a people who received no warner before you, perhaps they may take heed.

Muhammad is telling the Story of MOSES, Moses was not assigned for these people directly, niether was anyone else between the times of Moses and Muhammad assigned as a warner to these people directly, Muhammad was the first one assigned as a Warner to these people who could tell them the story of Moses. Therefore Quran correctly says "So you can warn a people who received no warner before you" (to tell them the story of Moses).

First Abraham was not assigned directly for Meccans, second he was before Moses therefore he had no chance to warn Arabs regarding Moses story.
Abraham rebuilt/rennovated the Kaaba that is in Mecca as ordered by Allah, and was inviting the People of Allah to the house of Allah.
Between time of Ismail and Muhammad no prophet was assigned to these people who could tell the story of Moses to warn these people.

Now Samia you; Agentxxx or any one else if has any proof regarding Kaaba not been in Mecca and built by Abraham then you should bring it forward and shall not fell prey to Jewish or any other propoganda.
But before commenting please read the both posts of mine.

Also mate, Ibrahim was never caled Rasool in the Quran, he was only called Nabi as far as I remember, i.e. Ibrahim was never sent to any people with a message from God, He was only a Nabi, i.e. He was to tell the people (no specific people) around him about God and the JD, no laws to follow

Salam

stillearning

AOA all

Is it not well documented that there was a man called Mohd and he lived in Mecca just over 1400 yrs ago.
After him there were rulers/leaders of the muslim community the period of their rule is well documented.
Mohd also had children and grandchildren & their subsequent troubles with a particular ruler named Yazid.
It is also well documented where Mohd lived and fought his battles & as far as I am aware there has been no dispute regarding these.
Mohds life and his return to Mecca is historically documented by both Muslims and non Muslims alike.
The followers of Mohd fought and some gve their lives or becam outcasts in their own family to uphold Mohd's Message.
Yet here we are over 1400 yrs later told that all these people were suddenly duped so much that not a single sole recognised that pagans had suddenly gone back to pre Mohd days. Until Messiah Ayman and his followers in the 21st century realised that every Muslim had been completely duped and Kabba & Mecca had no connection and Mohd neve did Haj in Mecaa and it was all a conspiracy. Exactly who, where and when this conspiracy tooke place the EVIDENCE IS ZERO. But eh so what why let this minor matter get in the way of Messiah Aymans thoeries based on Quranic verses which have very little to do with the point he is making. Yet Messiah's followers are convinced that every interpertation of the Quran is wrong other than his.

LET ME ASK AGAIN WHEN DID CORRUPTION THAT KABBA IS IN MECCA TAKE PLACE
WHO INTRODUCED THIS MONUMENTAL EVENT
WHY NOT A SLIGHTEST OF MENTIONS IN EITHER MUSLIM OR NON MUSLIM HISTORY-I mean did every one just woke up one day and simply suffered from amnesia until now.

Based on the above presented evidences, the so called Kaaba in Mecca and the hajj incorporating the extra-qur'aanic pagan rituals, practices, and customs at this so called Kaaba could have originated only after the death of the Prophet. Exactly when is irrelevant.

The references you have given do not in any way prove your conclusion but if you want to make 2+2 into 8 then that is your progative.
regards
regards

unknownuser

Peace all,

The documentation being talked about in the above post is nothing but unverifiable hearsays.

Has someone asked the same questions about Jesus ? There is a ton of documentation claiming he was crucified and that he was the son of The God but does that make it true ?

There is ZERO evidence of existence of Mecca during the revelation of the qur'aan.

There is ZERO evidence of existence of the so called Kaaba in Mecca during revelation of the qur'aan.

Evidence of the qur'aan indicates that Muhammad was living near the ruins of the town of Lot and mentions olives and Mount Sinai in his vicinity. Olives are NOT found in the region of Mecca.

Orthographic evidence from the qur'aan indicates that it was originally descended in the North Arabian Lakhmid province region.

Evidence of the qur'aan, which I have already given in an earlier post, shows that the so called Kaaba in Mecca does not meet ANY criteria laid down in the qur'aan for "albayt alharaam", and thus CANNOT be the one mentioned by The God in the qur'aan.

Nabatean archeological evidence clearly shows that the deities of the pagan Arabs in pre-qur'aanic times were in the shape of imperfect cubes and they were often veiled in black cloth EXACTLY like the black cuboid idol in Mecca. There is also evidence about pagan rituals in pre-qur'aanic times such as spinning seven times around their cuboid idols and kissing black stones associated with their idols EXACTLY like the so called hajj rituals carried out in Mecca, which has ZERO basis from the qur'aan.

There is ZERO evidence of Abraham and his sons, Moses and Jesus ever visiting the so called Kaaba in Mecca, whereas they are supposed to know the qibla like they know their own children according to the qur'aan.

It is a very plausible scenario that the people reverted back to their pagan practices soon after the death of Muhammad and started calling them islamic, just like the followers of Moses and Jesus did after their death.

The evidence from the qur'aan should be enough for the believers and the forethoughtful, but I guess the blind can never see, unless The God wills otherwise.

unknownuser

AOA all

Is it not well documented that there was a man called Mohd and he lived in Mecca just over 1400 yrs ago.
After him there were rulers/leaders of the muslim community the period of their rule is well documented.
Mohd also had children and grandchildren & their subsequent troubles with a particular ruler named Yazid.
It is also well documented where Mohd lived and fought his battles & as far as I am aware there has been no dispute regarding these.
Mohds life and his return to Mecca is historically documented by both Muslims and non Muslims alike.
The followers of Mohd fought and some gve their lives or becam outcasts in their own family to uphold Mohd's Message.
Yet here we are over 1400 yrs later told that all these people were suddenly duped so much that not a single sole recognised that pagans had suddenly gone back to pre Mohd days. Until Messiah Ayman and his followers in the 21st century realised that every Muslim had been completely duped and Kabba & Mecca had no connection and Mohd neve did Haj in Mecaa and it was all a conspiracy. Exactly who, where and when this conspiracy tooke place the EVIDENCE IS ZERO. But eh so what why let this minor matter get in the way of Messiah Aymans thoeries based on Quranic verses which have very little to do with the point he is making. Yet Messiah's followers are convinced that every interpertation of the Quran is wrong other than his.

LET ME ASK AGAIN WHEN DID CORRUPTION THAT KABBA IS IN MECCA TAKE PLACE
WHO INTRODUCED THIS MONUMENTAL EVENT
WHY NOT A SLIGHTEST OF MENTIONS IN EITHER MUSLIM OR NON MUSLIM HISTORY-I mean did every one just woke up one day and simply suffered from amnesia until now.

The references you have given do not in any way prove your conclusion but if you want to make 2+2 into 8 then that is your progative.
regards
regards

Well said bro

Thanks

stillearning

AOA all

The documentation being talked about in the above post is nothing but unverifiable hearsays.

Since when?

Has someone asked the same questions about Jesus ? There is a ton of documentation claiming he was crucified and that he was the son of The God but does that make it true ?

I think you need to study your history again. There has alsways been a dispute as to Jesus being the Son of God or even God and the concept of him being son of God i.e the holy trinity concept was only agreed amongst the MAJORITY of christians about 300 years after Jesus's death. Where as the existance of Kabba in Mecaa and Hajj etc has never been even vaguely disputed until your particular brand of Islam came into being in the 21st century.
You analogy here is as illogical as the rest of your conclusions.

There is ZERO evidence of existence of Mecca during the revelation of the qur'aan.

There is ZERO evidence of existence of the so called Kaaba in Mecca during revelation of the qur'aan.

Evidence of the qur'aan indicates that Muhammad was living near the ruins of the town of Lot and mentions olives and Mount Sinai in his vicinity. Olives are NOT found in the region of Mecca.

LET ME REPEAT AGAIN AS YOU APPEAR NOT TO HAVE UNDERSTOOD WHAT I WROTE

LET ME ASK AGAIN WHEN DID CORRUPTION THAT KABBA IS IN MECCA TAKE PLACE
WHO INTRODUCED THIS MONUMENTAL EVENT
WHY NOT A SLIGHTEST OF MENTIONS IN EITHER MUSLIM OR NON MUSLIM HISTORY-I mean did every one just woke up one day and simply suffered from amnesia until now.

All I am asking is when did this huge corruption take place and did all muslims suffer from collective amnesia.

Orthographic evidence from the qur'aan indicates that it was originally descended in the North Arabian Lakhmid province region.

Evidence of the qur'aan, which I have already given in an earlier post, shows that the so called Kaaba in Mecca does not meet ANY criteria laid down in the qur'aan for "albayt alharaam", and thus CANNOT be the one mentioned by The God in the qur'aan.

Nabatean archeological evidence clearly shows that the deities of the pagan Arabs in pre-qur'aanic times were in the shape of imperfect cubes and they were often veiled in black cloth EXACTLY like the black cuboid idol in Mecca. There is also evidence about pagan rituals in pre-qur'aanic times such as spinning seven times around their cuboid idols and kissing black stones associated with their idols EXACTLY like the so called hajj rituals carried out in Mecca, which has ZERO basis from the qur'aan.

NOT EVIDENCE JUST YOUR COLOURFUL AND VERY IMAGINITIVE THEORIES.

There is ZERO evidence of Abraham and his sons, Moses and Jesus ever visiting the so called Kaaba in Mecca, whereas they are supposed to know the qibla like they know their own children according to the qur'aan.

Someone has has dealt with this point quite eloquently.

It is a very plausible scenario that the people reverted back to their pagan practices soon after the death of Muhammad and started calling them islamic, just like the followers of Moses and Jesus did after their death.

NO it is not at all plausible without a whimper from history or even every Muslim of the day accepting such monumental change just like that and leaving no trace in history. Even if Muslims were completely duped are you seriously suggesting a complete and collective amnesia amongst the entire human race Muslims and Non Muslims alike. You will see where additions took lace in Christianity or Judaism, despite relatively long time ago, controversy was stirred and the facts are still disputed today.
Whereas no such controversy regarding Kabba has ever existed.

The evidence from the qur'aan should be enough for the believers and the forethoughtful, but I guess the blind can never see, unless The God wills otherwise.

Cheap insults do not mean that you and your messiahs interpertation counts as evidence.
Regards

Samia

Salaam Raj-ah

Agentxxx's question was not my question. Mine is different; not yet responded to.

unknownuser

There has alsways been a dispute as to Jesus being the Son of God or even God and the concept of him being son of God i.e the holy trinity concept was only agreed amongst the MAJORITY of christians about 300 years after Jesus's death. Where as the existance of Kabba in Mecaa and Hajj etc has never been even vaguely disputed until your particular brand of Islam came into being in the 21st century.
You analogy here is as illogical as the rest of your conclusions.

NO it is not at all plausible without a whimper from history or even every Muslim of the day accepting such monumental change just like that and leaving no trace in history.

http//free-islam.com/extraimages/slamdunk1.gif

unknownuser

Peace all,

Where as the existance of Kabba in Mecaa and Hajj etc has never been even vaguely disputed until your particular brand of Islam came into being in the 21st century.
You analogy here is as illogical as the rest of your conclusions.

It is disputed by the clear signs from al-qur'aan which show that the black cuboid idol in Mecca does not meet ANY REQUIREMENTS of "albayt alharaam".

Oh ..... I forgot that for some people evidence of al-qur'aan has no value. They will remain blind to what The God says in al-qur'aan. brickwall

How can one say that it was never disputed. It is quite plausible that soon after the death of the prophet, the majority of the pagan hypocrites reverted to their pagan ways and crushed the minority of the true muslims and then destroyed all the evidences of any dispute and covered their tracks.

The so called hadeeth was also agreed upon 300 years after the death of Muhammad, just like what happened with Jesus. All the other hadeeth that was not agreed upon, which could possibly have had evidences of the dispute, was rejected by the crooks and destroyed.

unknownuser

It is quite plausible that soon after the death of the prophet, the majority of the pagan hypocrites reverted to their pagan ways and crushed the minority of the true muslims and then destroyed all the evidences of any dispute and covered their tracks.

The minority of the true muslims were defeated !!!!!!!

yeah

Let's look at this verse that exposes the ignorance in the above quote by a clear cut ignorant

He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion, that He may make it overcome the religions, all of them, though the polytheists may be averse.

(9)

-> See, "that He may make it overcome the religions, all of them, though the polytheists may be averse.", however in the ignorant quote above we read that the polytheists have won and destroyed the deen of Allah

Let me have the best laugh for the day

rotfl rotfl rotfl

unknownuser

Peace all,

Indeed the the Prophet and his followers overcame the rejecters during his lifetime. After his death, it was a matter of which group of hypocrites and rejecters overcame which ones.

What else can one expect from THE WORST OF THE HYPOCRITES AND REJECTERS ? !!

997 The Nomads are the worst in rejection and hypocrisy, and more likely not to know the limits of what God has sent down upon His messenger. God is Knower, Wise.

6116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God's path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

The current so called Kaaba is clear proof that THE GOLD MEDAL of rejection and hypocrisy has been won by you know who, just as The God told us !!

agentxxx

peace all,

Samia
Dear Samia; I understood what he was asking but before directly answering him on the verse i was trying to establish that it is only Mecca that fulfills all the Quranic Prophecies and rules laid down in Quran for Hajj, since you and he have not commented on that; therefore I take it for granted that Mecca is the place for HAjj and you agree with it.

The question which you have put up is actually on the basis, what I, Ahmed Bahgat and few others at this forum are trying to tell, "Without reading whole Quran and understanding it and just picking up verses and translating it by root method or word to word translation leads us away from Quran and word of Allah, despite bringing us nearer".

The verse says
Nor were you on the slope of the mount when We called. But it is mercy from your Lord, so that you may warn a people who received no warner before you, perhaps they may take heed.

Now go to the first verses of this Sura

We recite to you herein some history of Moses and Pharaoh, truthfully, for the benefit of people who believe.

*And certainly We gave Musa the Book after We had destroyed the former generations, clear arguments for men and a guidance and a mercy, that they may be mindful. 2843.

*And you were not on the western side when We revealed to Musa the commandment, and you were not among the witnesses; 2844.

But We raised up generations, then life became prolonged to them; and you were not dwelling among the people of Madyan, reciting to them Our communications, but We were the senders. 2845.

*And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord THAT YOU MAY WARN A PEOPLE TO WHOM NO WARNER CAME BEFORE YOU, that they may be mindful. 2846.

*And were it not that there should befall them a disaster for what their hands have sent before, then they should say Our Lord! why didst Thou not send to us a messenger so that we should have followed Thy communications and been of the believers ! 2847.

But (now) when the truth has come to them from Us, they say WHY IS HE NOT GIVEN THE LIKE OF WHAT WAS GIVEN TO MUSA? What! did they not disbelieve in what Musa was given before? They say Two magicians backing up each other; and they say Surely we are unbelievers in all. 2848.

As you can see the YOU in 2846 and the HE in 2847 is not Moses but Mohammad.

And the words ?you were not there? is to indicate that the prophet was informed of the past events by Wahi.

raj-ah Therefore Quran correctly says "So you can warn a people who received no warner before you" (to tell them the story of Moses).

According to your interpretation Warning is just telling the story of Moses confused

Raj-ah-Abraham rebuilt/rennovated the Kaaba that is in Mecca as ordered by Allah, and was inviting the People of Allah to the house of Allah.

For what? did god just ordered him to rebuilt and then get out of there for good, never to return again.

Raj-ah-Now Samia you; Agentxxx or any one else if has any proof regarding Kaaba not been in Mecca and built by Abraham then you should bring it forward and shall not fell prey to Jewish or any other propoganda.

my argument is not that Kaaba is not in Mecca.......its simply who build it...if it was built by IIbrahim then the 2846 has yet to be defined with logic, also the reason for its abandoning by Ibrahim.

peace