Was the term "daraba" sneakily turned to "beating" by hypocrites?
-
Few times, when i have engaged in discussions regarding correct meanings of a certain Arabic word, i have come to realize, that searching out the correct meaning of a word in a given sentence, is much more than picking up a dictionary or lane, and randomly replacing it with a meaning of one's suiting.
It requires plenty of skills and a decent amount of experience in making an accurate/correct choice.lets take the example of the same word Darraba or strike in English , which i posted earlier.
"strike" , meaning hit
strike out , meaning cancellation
on strike, or the union called for a strike,
The word strike gives three different meanings , and to pin point the correct meanings in context of the sentence, the words used before or after are very important.
Any person who does not have a basic knowledge of the language or its grammar, is at a significant disadvantage . It becomes tricky for a novice to determine, or to give his/her opinion on an advanced " evolved meaning of a certain word," let me give one more example.cold, means cool,
But when used for a man/woman, means disintrested in sex.
And Coool ,, when used for man/woman, yet would convey a different meaning.
One can pick up any word of english, and it would convey different meanings in a given sentence with a certain combination of words or/ vowels.
This forum badly needs expert/experienced people, and i am afraid we have lost one of them , I mean brother A Bhagat. He was a great asset to the forum, and i would give due respect to his opinion on any controversial issue. Brother A.B! if you read this , please come back. I dont know about others , but i do miss you
Meanwhile , i dug up some old threads regarding the use of "Darabaa" in 4-34, and my opinion is strengthen about the use of this word in this sentence, which means, "strike" , and oh yes , in my earlier post i had said , that show me one women who is willing to accept a gender biased commandment, i did come across one, and her name is Boost" Madam ! i am impressed bravo
peace
siki
-
Salaam siki
On your quest for the meaning of a word, you should also consider, not just what it means, but also what it CANNOT mean. It is not only because I am a woman, but because I believe in the attributes of God as fair, non biased and has consistency in his commands, rewarding and punishment. One should also consider how He used the same word in the qur'aan.
I posted the word daraba, meaning to strike, as used in the qur'aan. All your comment was you wanted to see the other usages of daraba with different meanings, completely missing the point. Many others, including me, also posted messages showing why it cannot mean daraba, your comment after the first of my posts was that you were disappointed! Everyone on this forum, except you and hairfm, were trying to refute this meaning, not just based on dictionary meaning, but mainly on common sense, and if there is any kind of justice which condones inflictng punishment for a "crime" not yet committed. But it seems you are fine with all these flows brought in if we accept "to beat" as the best option.
This forum badly needs expert/experienced people, and i am afraid we have lost one of them , I mean brother A Bhagat. He was a great asset to the forum, and i would give due respect to his opinion on any controversial issue. Brother A.B! if you read this , please come back. I dont know about others , but i do miss you
If you miss AB so much, go to his forum. For me, manners, humility and rationality, and above all avoiding aggressive and very rude language, are more important than expertise in Arabic, which, surprisingly, you believe he has.
show me one women who is willing to accept a gender biased commandment, i did come across one, and her name is Boost" Madam ! i am impressed bravo
I do not see BOOST posting on this thread, and I wonder if she explicitly accepts this understanding.
-
Gender biased commandments? Let's see men getting pregnant first.
Then you can use that argument.
-
Salaam siki
If you miss AB so much, go to his forum. For me, manners, humility and rationality, and above all avoiding aggressive and very rude language, are more important than expertise in Arabic, which, surprisingly, you believe he has.
I do not see BOOST posting on this thread, and I wonder if she explicitly accepts this understanding.
Samia !you too are an asset of this forum , and i do appreciate your language expertise. but A.B probably has more experience under his belt . I agree with you regarding his temper.May be he gets frustrated when he finds drastic twisting of the words of Quran by some inexperienced learners.
About boost , ya you are right she is not posting in this thread , but i found her posts in a similar old thread, i do not know her stance now, but i found her attitude to be simply fantastic.
About the term darabaa , i shall post later,
peace
siki
-
In answer to the question, it was not necessarily done so 'sneakily' as you put it. Its just simply the interpretation at the time which endured till now, also based upon the social structure and the standing of males and females in those societies.
I don't think it was done maliciously on purpose >D
-
In answer to the question, it was not necessarily done so 'sneakily' as you put it. Its just simply the interpretation at the time which endured till now, also based upon the social structure and the standing of males and females in those societies.
I don't think it was done maliciously on purpose >
Allow me to disagree with you. When scholars try to add to the verse descriptions to what daraba means to water it down, I then know they know very well what daraba means, supported by its usage in the qur'aan strike to kill/cause harm. When scholars twist the meaning of nushouz in a way that fits women only, forgetting, or rather ignoring the fact that a husband can also be nashez as mentioned in the qur'aan, and ignoring the verb "yakhsha" which indicates that nushouz is not yet committed, I know they are trying to deceive. And most of all, when I see that they are not looking into God's attributes as fair and just, and at His system of reward and punishment that does not distinguish between male and female, I know where they are looking at and where they get their information and teachings from. These interpretations came to us centuries after the death of the prophet. I do not believe that was the way the prophet understood it or that he allowed it to be understood in this way. These interpretations stand as a lame duck between their pre and post eras.
-
Salaam siki
. Many others, including me, also posted messages showing why it cannot mean daraba, your comment after the first of my posts was that you were disappointed! Everyone on this forum, except you and hairfm, were trying to refute this meaning,.
My dear sister samia
assalamo alakumi had already explained to you as to why was i disappointed, not because what you think of Darraba means in this ayat , but because of the kind of arguments you presented in support. during my recent search i was surprised to find , sister Boost replying you almost the same when you posted your arguments , here are they for your reference.
Quote by samia
If this is considered a punishment,; how wouldn't God give the details of which part of the body to beat, with what and/or how many (beats)?reply by boost
There are many topics in the quran that don't have such details. The salat for one has virtually no detail of how to do it. Does that mean that salat should have a different meaning?Quote by samia.
Secondly where in the quraan do individulads apply / excute the punishment?reply by boost
Is there an example of everything stated in the quran?samia ! it is quiet comfortable/ helpfull to have a person like you around. but sometimes when one is not very careful in posting arguments, they leave a dent on ones credibility
peace handshake
siki
-
samia ! it is quiet comfortable/ helpfull to have a person like you around. but sometimes when one is not very careful in posting arguments, they leave a dent on ones credibility
siki
Salaam siki
I do not understand what you mean concerning my credibility.
Is this a comment on the following sentence?
I do not see BOOST posting on this thread, and I wonder if she explicitly accepts this understanding.
The sentence starting with "I wonder" does not hold any specific value to whether Boost does or does not accept this understanding. I "wonder" entails a sense of uncertainty.
Here is the link to this thread , and I leave it to whoever is interested to see why "I wonder"
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13171.msg109427#msg109427
To those who do not have time to click, here is a message by Boost on the same thread before I posted mine
Peace Bro AB
So it really does mean to beat your wife? This is serious now for me. What is the hikma found in this verse? I am not questioning God i'm just trying to uderstand the verse.
Doesn't sound like someone who finds it easy to accept this understanding, unlike you and a very few others.
-
Salaam siki
I do not understand what you mean concerning my credibility.
Is this a comment on the following sentence?
peace be upon you
Samia, if you still din't get what i meant to convey here, or when i commented, That " i was disappointed" , i decline to make further comments on this trivial issue . lets bury it here handshake
To those who do not have time to click, here is a message by Boost on the same thread before I posted mine
Doesn't sound like someone who finds it easy to accept this understanding, unlike you and a very few others.
sis ! i only appreciated Boost's unbiased approach to learning, keeping her women hood aside . It was, and is totally insignificant/irrelevant as to what is her opinion now, or was then, regarding any issue.
God bless you
siki
-
I have glanced through excellent discussion on the question whether or not Allah, the most merciful, has allowed beating one?s wife but it seems that the matter is scattered at other places. Therefore the points towards which I am going to draw attention of friends may or may not have been discussed earlier. If these have been elaborated, I may be excused and told about the reference of those contacts.
In the verse, the apprehension, fear is merely about ?Noshoozohunna?. Similarly wives can fear ?Nashoozan? or even husband?s indifference. Such a situation can be caused even by very trivial matters/difference of opinion.
Husbands are advised to tactfully handle the situation
1- fa'izu_hunna ?When it so happens (Fa), advise them with love and affection. (if it yielded no result then)
2- wahjuru_hunna- move/separate them away (hijr)- where they are made to go/part/separate? Hijrat always involves physical separation.
3- fil mada_ji Inside your bedroom-
Here permission is to separate them inside the bedroom, not separating her to some other place in the house (ba it). Bedroom is the place where husband and wife meet (it is for them majma al bahrain-meeting point of two rivers) and so long they live in their bedroom all members of the family in that house know that they enjoy good matrimonial relationship. At this point things should be kept between wife and husband to resolve the problem themselves.
Even after this, the situation does not improve; natural next step would be to separate her from the bedroom (wahjuru hunna an il mada ji) into the house so that everyone in the house/family comes to know about existing bad relations between this couple.4- wadribu_hunna.
Immediately after ?wahjuru_hunna- fil mada_ji? was there any need to add words ?min or an il madaji? after wadribu_hunna??There is no denying that the word ?Zarb? is used, 9 or 10 times out of perhaps 58 times, with reference to physical striking, 4-5 times with reference to Asa of Musa a.s. I cant? understand why an Arab would always immediately take it for beating only ignoring its major use (48 times) in the Quran Majeed for other purpose.
?Zarb? is used going out, the end result is separation/segregation from family.
?Zarb? is to create demarcation/separation (Hadd-e-Fasil)
?faduriba bainahum bisu_r?
? A partition/separation (duriba) shall be made between them with a wall? (Refer 5713)?Zarb? makes things distinct/separate. Missal is ?yazrebo? because Missal makes things distinct and clear.
During the discussion a friend also referred 482. If we insist that wadribu_hunna is beating the wives, how could it be reconciled?
Ya_ ay yuhal lazina a_manu_ in na min azwa_jikum wa aula_dikum aduw wal lakum
O ye who believe! truly among your WIVES and your children are some that are your ENIMIESFriends will agree that a wife ?guilty? of Noshooz is much less a ?criminal? than the other wife who is Enemy. If the ?punishment? for Noshooz is beating, the enemy wife should be liable to much harsher punishment. Let us have different perception and understanding about our conduct about wives because Allah has directed
fahzaru_hum wa in tafu_ wa tasfahu_ wa tagfiru_
so beware of them! But if ye forgive and overlook and cover up (their faults)
{I lament this translation does not depict the beauty of words used in ayah-someone may try to give us translation that nearly match the depth of the words used}
This is the only place in the whole of Quran Majeed where these three words have been used jointly.In the presence of this direction how wadribu_hunna could be translated and understood as beating wives. Beating is not allowed even to that husband who is 100 percent sure in his doubt about the bad character of his wife. As compared to that Noshoozhunna is too small a thing.
After the husband has separated his wife from the bedroom into the house, it is like beating the drum that matrimonial relations of this couple are at stake. This will create the fear of their permanent separation. In such a situation, further advice to handle the deteriorating matters is given 435. If every thing fails, the natural result will be divorce and end result again final separation ?Farqoohunna?.
May Allah bless everyone.
-
Salaam mazhar
Good job!
As I understand it
- Talk to her
- Keep away from her in the bed room
(so far, the matter is kept private) - Take the matter to a different level declare it by seperation (or just declaration as in "daraba masalan" by telling other family members/friends) which will logically lead to
- case being discussed by members of the two families.
-
Dear brother Mazhar
welcome aboard. What i understand of your post is , First separate in the bedroom , but remain in the bedroom so that people do not know it , then you just separate, so people get to know it.
which people in the house one is trying to show this situation ? most of the families only consist of you ,and your children ,are you trying to show it to your children? and if there are some close relatives around (mother father , brothers etc) , do you think that they would not know/sense it when the situation has reached to this level that you have deserted her in the bed/bedroom?
wahjuru_hunna- fil mada_ji This simply means , what we know in english as " we are no more sleeping together" weather you still share the double bed, or the room ,or not , doesn't matter. God is describing in a decent language to the husband that , stop being physical with the wife.
Moving away could mean, that one could be moving out to a different room or house , but yet one can come back or get physical pleasure when he desires.
Brother this step recommends, that husband should withhold physical intimacy. Using this as an argument to make room for "another step, which is ("darab as separation" to make people aware of your estranged relationship" is incorrect in my judgment.
However i am willing to discuss in detail about the use of "Darabuhunna" in this ayah and grammatical implications of different meanings in context with this situation.
The ayah 4-82 mentioned by you is incorrect.
peace
siki
-
Brother siki, Salam.
482 was referred to highlight the question of consistency and equity. If a husband has two wives, one is ?guilty? of Nashooz and the other wife happens to fall in the category ?enemy?, then is the Law Book prescribing physical ?punishment? for a lighter ?crime? and showing mercy for a bigger crime by ignoring it and even directing that even don?t point it out to your wife about her ?guilt?. Who would accept this sort of law rulings?
It is accepted principal that while reading any book, the reader has to restrict himself to the words used. We may perceive anything, but reader can?t say that such and such thing was in the mind of author and he wanted to say such and such thing. Words indicate the intention of the author. ?Wahjroohunna fil madaiji? will certainly result in the breaking of ?physical contact?. But we need not say nakedly ?stop having intercourse with that wife? since this message is built in the words used. It in itself clarifies that ?wadriboohunna? does not mean beating. Had negation of ?Basheroohunna? used here instead of ?Wahjroohunna fil madaiji? only then one could insist that Idriboo means physical beating and not separation. Viewed from any angle, the ayah does not suggest or allow beating. Beating or hurting somebody is not the prerogative of an individual. This is the job of the society, not individual husband. All translators and Muffasserin after saying that it means ?physical beating? don?t. forget adding, apologetically, that it should be very light, flowery beating. My sympathies.
Quran e Majeed is for all mankind. Many people live with their families, not only wife and children. That is why Allah has advised putting restriction on all small and adult members of the family including servants not to disturb the privacy of husband and wife during three times. Matrimonial relation is private and personal affair but the whole world knows when a man and women enter into marriage that they will perform it. This is the perception of marriage but we don?t say that marriage is for that purpose. If they are not performing, no other member of the family can come to know about it unless the wife is removed from the bed room into other area of the house which would immediately reflect that ?that connection? is broken. Breaking of that ?connection? is always perturbing for other members of the family who otherwise little care about exchange of harsh words/skirmishes between husband and wife. Breaking of that connection is always reflected in subtle manner and words. -
Salam,
The theme of the verse in question is really this If you don't trust your wife, then leave her temporarily. Otherwise there will be disasters. It's really about the male psychology and Allah knows best.
I've never read Hadith. I don't believe that anyone has the right to elaborate on Allah's words. Allah doesn't run out of words and His book is clear and perfect for sincere believers.
Please download the document attached. You might be surprised! sun
I strongly advise those who know Arabic to pay careful attention to the language used in the Quran. I also advise those who don't know Arabic to cross-reference and understand Allah's values because these do not change.
PEACE
-
4-34 , and 4-128 both deal in case of Nashooz by either spouse. lets analyse these ayahs
Nashooz is, illtreatment, to look down upon, to care two hoots about, thinking of other person not worthy of ones status,having a damn care attitude,persisting with a humiliating attitude and hence creating a situation for other party where he/she is unable to carry on in a healthy relationship.
4-34 deals with Nashooz of wife and 4-128 handles the husband's Nashooz as well as desertion
In both, situation is same by either of the spouse , but Modus operandi recommended by HIM is quite different, why? Because they both are different(or in a different position) and that is why recommendations are not the same.
In case of 4-34 ,
First she is being advised / admonished to correct her behaviour,
If this fails she is being deserted in bed
Then she is,,,,,,,,,,,?
And finally if every thing has failed , matter is being refereed to the elders or arbitrators to intervene , counsel , and if that fails to improve the situation, they may recommend to terminate the liaison(4-35).
In case of (4-12 husband's Nashooz or /and desertion of the wife, she is not being told to
Advise or admonish the husband.
Neither she is being told to withhold sex.
Nor it is recommended to "Darraba".
The matter is straight way being refereed to elders for counselling.
please ask yourself this question why this drastic difference in recommendations , where as the situation is similar?
peace
siki
-
Brother Mazhar
peace
So you agree with me that wahjuru_hunna- fil mada_ji means to desert her in bed chamber , or to stop having physical/sexual relations. so how else you wanna separate from her ? because further separation would amount to leaving that house and moving out by the husband.
How do you wanna implement this separation, "daarrabu hunna" , leaving the house hold and kids at the mercy of ,,,,,neighbours, i suppose,,? just to give a message to the close ones that your relationship has reached a breaking point, so have mercy, and intervene? If those people have to be made aware off , aren't there some easier methods ? In todays society how much is the percentage who live in a joint family?
I am more than willing to accept this as any thing, other than striking here in this verse , but then you have to be very logical and convincing, so for, this theory is a NO NO,
siki
-
Dear peace4life
greetings
So you mean the "English" picked the "ON STRIKE" meaning of having a temporary break for the black mail purpose, from Arabic, and that also from Quranic Arabic of this Aya ?
OH ya ! if that is true ,and you can prove it , well , we have hit a jack pot.
siki