and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution...
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Peace Siki,
I do not agree with you regrading interpretation of Bagha in context to 24-33, even if you consider this to be a product of my sick mind.
Perhaps. But perhaps it could be a product of you thinking that the god is addressing some pimps in 2433 and not people like you and I. You have to read 2433 as if it is addressing you personally.
"Bagha", in general means wrong and i am in agreement with you on this. But the meanings become "specific" in relation to the subject of a sentense.
I am not an Arabic expert or a linguist but i do push my common sense to limits, for making up these deficiencies . So here is what it says regarding the use of word "Baghaa" in specific to verse 24-33.
Let me start with an example,
HSN or HASSAna means , protected ,fortified , locked, etc but when the subject is womens sexuality , it becomes protected sexuality,(4-24-25) or we can say "Chastity", the same word when used for a building, becomes a "Fortress", (59,2and14) and the same, when used along/in context to private parts, depicts virginity(19-20).No. It has nothing to do with virginity. So according to you in relation to private parts, it is OK to have oral sex since it doesn't effect virginity!!
When it is used in relation to private parts then it implies chastity. When it is used on its own then it just means "protected". The word "tahasunan" simply means "protection".
You could have been right if this sentense had finished at,---- "And do not compel your Young females to commit wrong.......... it would have opened its application in "general "to all aspects of "wrongs" in life.
But Brother! what follows after this sentense is, ----"If they are desirous of being chaste"
this particular phrase , puts precision back into the first sentense, of "wrong" and locks the meanings of Bagha in specific to sexuality.No private parts are mentioned in 2433 so the meaning has nothing to do with chastity.
what all can be committed wrong in sexual terms of a young female? Fornication , may be , but then we have to further modify it , because a certain sentense has been inserted here, AARZUL--HAYATUL--DUNIYA, SEEKING THE MATERIAL GAINS OF THIS WORLD
Meaning, " you are forcing her to commit a wrong, which is in sexual contest, (fornication) to gain the materials in this world",
what else can we call the above ? other than " Prostitution"The sexual private parts are not mentioned in the passage. There is no sexual context as you imagine in order to distance yourself from the passage. You just have to listen to what the god is saying as if he is addressing you personally in order to understand it. You do not listen and say to yourself the god is only addressing pimps and I have nothing to do with it. So how do you expect to understand and apply 2433 in your life?
I think that Islamic families want to be able to force their young sisters, young daughters, or young adopted female orphans to marry a rich man when the opportunity arises. Hence, the meaning was changed to "prostitution" to make it appear that the passage is addressing pimps and not them. This allows them to ignore the god's command and reduce 2433 to a theoretical perverted passage so that they can use the excuse "look we are not pimps and we are not prostituting them so 2433 doesn't apply to anyone we know".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Siki,
Perhaps. But perhaps it could be a product of you thinking that the god is addressing some pimps in 2433 and not people like you and I. You have to read 2433 as if it is addressing you personally.
Peace Ayman
Were you expecting a separate "Great Reading" titled "Quran for pimps", from him?
So according to you in relation to private parts, it is OK to have oral sex since it doesn't effect virginity!!
I fail to understand why do you have to shoot off on a sexual tangent , so often , in complete disregard to the presence of "Mohsinnats" reading these posts, and yet have the guts to blame others of having "Sick Minds"
where did i utter the above mentioned statement? Had there not been so many "Fatayats" present in this forum , this statement of yours would have got as "silly" an answer , what the statement itself deserved.
No. It has nothing to do with virginity. So according to you in relation to private parts, it is OK to have oral sex since it doesn't effect virginity!!
When it is used in relation to private parts then it implies chastity. When it is used on its own then it just means "protected". The word "tahasunan" simply means "protection".
Now let me show you once again virginity here.
21-91 As for the one who maintained her virginity,( Ahsanati Farjaha) we blew into her from our spirit, and thus, we made her and her son a portent for the whole world.
Ahsanti farjaha means , protected sexual organs , or locked/blocked from use , and the one who does that , we call him/her a virgin,
The above statement does not mean Chastity, Because in Chastity, there is a USE of these organs but, "NO illegal use" .
Want another prove from Quran, read 70-29.30, when God says , "They protect/guard there private parts" , and follows it with, "And use them only with their spouses or their MMA (right hand posses)", and repeats exactly the same pattern in 23-5,6 , for depicting chastity
When it is used on its own then it just means "protected". The word "tahasunan" simply means "protection".
No private parts are mentioned in 2433 so the meaning has nothing to do with chastity.
You want others to blindly follow your theories but , do not make an effort to understand, if somebody tries to correct/improve upon them.
It took us 10 pages to deliberate the word "HSn" and pin point the different meaning it conveys in realtion to the subject of a given sentense.
Please spare some time and re -read my post above, it will do a lot of good to you , and if you can't make sense of it , please go through a few posts on page 6,7 of the "Mohsinats --,, thread , where i thrashed every occurrence of this root HSN , and the meaning it coveys with respect to the subject of a sentense.
God bless us all
siki
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Peace Siki,
Were you expecting a separate "Great Reading" titled "Quran for pimps", from him?
So you do think that 2433 has nothing to do with you or anyone you know and it is only a theoretical passage as far as you are concerned.
I fail to understand why do you have to shoot off on a sexual tangent , so often , in complete disregard to the presence of "Mohsinnats" reading these posts, and yet have the guts to blame others of having "Sick Minds"
You don't even know the meaning of "mohsanat" and thus you don't translate it. It simply means "protected". When you say that a woman is protected. What does that mean? Does the meaning that she is not a prostitute or a slave girl the first thing that comes to mind? Only in as you say "sick minds" that whenever they see anything interpret it in a perverted manner. To any sensible person "a woman is protected" means that she can take care of herself (i.e. is mature) or her family can take care of her.
where did i utter the above mentioned statement? Had there not been so many "Fatayats" present in this forum , this statement of yours would have got as "silly" an answer , what the statement itself deserved.
Now let me show you once again virginity here.
21-91 As for the one who maintained her virginity,( Ahsanati Farjaha) we blew into her from our spirit, and thus, we made her and her son a portent for the whole world.
Ahsanti farjaha means , protected sexual organs , or locked/blocked from use , and the one who does that , we call him/her a virgin,So are you saying that the god is congratulating Maryam for not getting married?!!! There is nothing wrong with getting married. He is saying simply that she was chaste. I am sure that if the opportunity for marriage arose she would have got married because she wouldn't forbid something that the god allows and encourages. Also, virginity can be maintained by simply not having penetration. This doesn't mean that she was chaste. Women can have many sexual pleasures without penetration and thus maintaining virginity. Thus what you are saying causes major logical problems. So according to your understanding of wanting to be "mohasanat"/protected in 2433 meaning "wanting to be virgins", then the term used in 424 means that the passage is saying "those who can't marry virgins should marry young females"!!! and "if they became virgins then commit adultary then they get half of the punishment of the virgins"!!! Of course, as you can see your understanding leads to complete nonsense.
The above statement does not mean Chastity, Because in Chastity, there is a USE of these organs but, "NO illegal use" .
Want another prove from Quran, read 70-29.30, when God says , "They protect/guard there private parts" , and follows it with, "And use them only with their spouses or their MMA (right hand posses)", and repeats exactly the same pattern in 23-5,6 , for depicting chastityYes chastity is meant when talking about private parts not virginity. It is never used to mean virginity. Can you show me where "private parts" are mentioned in 2433? Of course you can't. Since private parts are not mentioned in 2433 and 424 then those passages are simply talking about "protected women" as I explained above and not "chastity" and certainly not "virginity".
You want others to blindly follow your theories but , do not make an effort to understand, if somebody tries to correct/improve upon them.
It took us 10 pages to deliberate the word "HSn" and pin point the different meaning it conveys in realtion to the subject of a given sentense.I don't expect them to follow anything based on the number of pages. I assure you that Sunnis have written many more pages than you on this subject.
Please spare some time and re -read my post above, it will do a lot of good to you , and if you can't make sense of it , please go through a few posts on page 6,7 of the "Mohsinats --,, thread , where i thrashed every occurrence of this root HSN , and the meaning it coveys with respect to the subject of a sentense.
I read them many times and people can go back and check my posts that you never was able to respond to. Everyone can also go back to those posts and see that due to your wrong understanding, you have turned everything on this subject to a perverted meaning. To you the passages talking about "what your oaths possess" are talking about wives, sisters, mothers and daughters that are kidnapped during war and then held prisoners against their will and for no crime and if their master requires it are raped!! To you 2433 is talking about pimps who force young women to prostitution and yet the pimps are completely forgiven according to 2433. So according to you a pimp who kidnaps a young woman and imprisons her and ties her up and then sets up a toll booth for customers to pay to have sex with her is COMPLETELY FOGIVEN!!!! On the other hand, there is nothing about forgiveness for the poor girl!!!!
Is your understanding that this is what righteous people do?!!! I am sorry but this is what tyrants do. For example, the people of Pharoah (7127, etc.). As I said many times before, perverted interpretations on this subject say more about the preconceptions and attitudes of the persons making them than about what the passage is actually saying. I suggest that you forget everything that you believe you understand about this subject and start clean.
Peace,
Ayman
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Brother Ayman and siki,
Asslamo alaikum.First of all brother siki why are you unnecessarily attributing mention of sick mind in Ayman?s post to mean it refers to you alone. Was'nt it just a general remark to make me understand things in some lovely manner.
I have gained lot from the debate. Quran e Majeed has certainly used the word ?Fa ta? for a young man, independent and coming from big family, Ibrahim a.s who could pick up the courage of breaking small gods of his nation.
Therefore I correct myself that Fatayaat includes young women, not necessarily female servants. Similarly fatayaat has been used for female servants. There are lot many examples that poverty ridden men do injustice to their own young women. And even some rich people don?t let their women even marry to avoid land holdings going to other people or marry them with a very young boy or very old man of own family. You might be surprised that here in my country people have been ?marrying? their sisters with ?Quran?. What a fraud!The words mentioned are ?despite their disliking, hatred?. Consent will perhaps be too light a word to describe ?Karh?. Now I understand that the instruction certainly contains the meaning not to force the female servants to do something wrong for material gains, but it will also cover other young women. Instructions in this regard are also given in the beginning of 419 using same word ?karh? ?O ye who believe! ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will?.
Quran e Majed protects the honour, dignity, and freedom and expects men to make all endeavors to respect and honour women. Allah expects men to give women a feel of protection and security and honour. Allah has put ?lanat? on those who throw accusations on Mohsanat.
The other issue was word ?"baghaa"/"al-baghaa". Brother Ayman has made me clear in simple manner about the difference in verb and noun. Here the issue is forcing towards (Ala al bagha) performing that thing. The root explains the concept. The basic thought in this particular root is to exceed moderate limits. The question is whether it is better to translate it like ?don?t force your young women into something that goes beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice? or ?don?t force your young women to prostitution?. Let us see what prostitution/prostitute mean
pros?ti?tute
noun (plural pros?ti?tutes)
1- Somebody paid for sexual intercourse somebody who is paid to provide sexual intercourse or other sex acts
2- Somebody who degrades talent for money somebody who uses a skill or ability in a way that is considered unworthy, usually for financial gain
transitive verb (past and past participle pros?ti?tut?ed, present participle pros?ti?tut?ing, 3rd person present singular pros?ti?tutes)
1- misuse something for gain to use a skill or ability in a way that is considered unworthy, usually for financial gain
? He has been accused of prostituting his talent by appearing in TV commercials.
2- work or offer somebody as prostitute to offer somebody or yourself for sexual intercourse or other sex acts in exchange for money
{With thanks from Encarta Dictionary}Since prostitution in common parlance is almost restricted to sex related matters, therefore I find myself inclined not to use it and instead adopt other words ?which they consider/hate as being unworthy/beyond appropriate limits? or in some other better way.
Rabbi zidni ilma. -
Brother Mazhar, thank you for your understanding and for your contribution to exposing the grave injustices that has been and continues to be done to young women in so-called Islamic societies that hide and distort the god's clear commands in the great reading/"quran".
peace,
Ayman
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Brother Ayman and siki,
Asslamo alaikum.First of all brother siki why are you unnecessarily attributing mention of sick mind in Ayman?s post to mean it refers to you alone. Was'nt it just a general remark to make me understand things in some lovely manner.
walakum aslam Brother
"Muslims are terrorist, or " Pakistanis are B,,,,,,,.
If some body passes a silly statement like above, and when "my brother Mazhar" responds to it , An on looker comments, "Why are you taking this as an offense , he has not abused you alone"?
And, his "LOVELY MANNERS" are always twisted.
Peace Siki,
So you do think that 2433 has nothing to do with you or anyone you know and it is only a theoretical passage as far as you are concerned.
Peace Ayman.
Your logic , and further insistence upon it , is quite strange considering your intellect.
Going by your logic , Do we have to ignore all those commandments , regarding fornicators , thieves or oppressors, by saying , OH NO , this is not for me, or this ayah means something else because i consider my self to be, Not ALL That?
Are the the "Pimps" some alien specie? do i have to explain it to you that " Yes, in each of us, there is a pimp lurking somewhere in dark corners of our personalties.
i will continue.
siki
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Brother siki,
Thanks. Difference of opinion does not permit us to break the bondage of brotherhood. Let us call ayman our brother. We should keep differing with him unless he is conviced or makes us convince. The advice about fatayaat, if they are slave servants would include not to sell them, to eventually end slavery. We are advised that when we come across absurd things we should not indulge into dispute; just pass by. We didn't do so with Rushde; and he is now "Sir", we earned him this title. -
Peace Siki,
Your logic , and further insistence upon it , is quite strange considering your intellect.
Going by your logic , Do we have to ignore all those commandments , regarding fornicators , thieves or oppressors, by saying , OH NO , this is not for me, or this ayah means something else because i consider my self to be, Not ALL That?
Are the the "Pimps" some alien specie? do i have to explain it to you that " Yes, in each of us, there is a pimp lurking somewhere in dark corners of our personalties.
i will continue.Again the command is clear that it is talking about "your young females" and you agree to that. So who are your young females? Please answer instead of evading the answer with irrelevant arguments.
As for your irrelevant arguments, you know that commands regarding "fornicators, thieves or oppressors" are always associated with strong prohibition and severe retribution and never with "after committing the act the god is forgiving" even without mentioning any repentance. Which is the bigger offence, stealing a loaf of bread and fornication between consenting adults or tying up your young daughter or young sister or young adopted female and then collecting money from complete strangers who happen to pass by so that they can rape her? What is wrong with your judgment?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Siki,
You don't even know the meaning of "mohsanat" and thus you don't translate it. It simply means "protected". When you say that a woman is protected. What does that mean? Does the meaning that she is not a prostitute or a slave girl the first thing that comes to mind? Only in as you say "sick minds" that whenever they see anything interpret it in a perverted manner. To any sensible person "a woman is protected" means that she can take care of herself (i.e. is mature) or her family can take care of her.
Peace Brother Ayman
The problem is that you are considering me as some one who is still stuck up with traditionalist's understanding of the term "Mohsinnat" , and hence is unable to comprehend your "Protected theory".
let me correct you here , No,, i am not , when i studied this term , i did find holes in traditionalist,s view which compelled you to improve upon it by presenting "The protected one". During my study When i scrutinized "The protected theory" , i found that though, it plugged some holes, but created quite a few more. So I had to get back to the drawing board in order to come up with an understanding, which is an improvemet to both , but is closer to the traditionalists view.
Problem I am facing at this time is, that you are stuck up with your "protected" idea, and hence do not pay attention to any thing, what any one else, logically puts forward.
Discussion on "Mohsinnats" or "HSN" , is out side the scope of this thread , i suggest that we open up a new thread regarding your "Protected theory" and you will find me "more than willing" to debate this issue with you. Till then lets keep our discussion in studying the term "Bagha" , and its meaning in contest to ayat 24-33.
I will continue, but meanwhile i sincerely recommend that you take a re look at my post (which i am quoting down below ), and try giving it a serious thought.
peace
siki
Peace Ayman
I do not agree with you regrading interpretation of Bagha in context to 24-33, even if you consider this to be a product of my sick mind.
"Bagha", in general means wrong and i am in agreement with you on this. But the meanings become "specific" in relation to the subject of a sentense.
I am not an Arabic expert or a linguist but i do push my common sense to limits, for making up these deficiencies . So here is what it says regarding the use of word "Baghaa" in specific to verse 24-33.
Let me start with an example,
HSN or HASSAna means , protected ,fortified , locked, etc but when the subject is womens sexuality , it becomes protected sexuality,(4-24-25) or we can say "Chastity", the same word when used for a building, becomes a "Fortress", (59,2and14) and the same, when used along/in context to private parts, depicts virginity(19-20).
You could have been right if this sentense had finished at,---- "And do not compel your Young females to commit wrong.......... it would have opened its application in "general "to all aspects of "wrongs" in life.
But Brother! what follows after this sentense is, ----"If they are desirous of being chaste"
this particular phrase , puts precision back into the first sentense, of "wrong" and locks the meanings of Bagha in specific to sexuality.what all can be committed wrong in sexual terms of a young female? Fornication , may be , but then we have to further modify it , because a certain sentense has been inserted here, AARZUL--HAYATUL--DUNIYA, SEEKING THE MATERIAL GAINS OF THIS WORLD
Meaning, " you are forcing her to commit a wrong, which is in sexual contest, (fornication) to gain the materials in this world",
what else can we call the above ? other than " Prostitution"
peace
siki
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Peace Siki,
Again the command is clear that it is talking about "your young females" and you agree to that. So who are your young females? Please answer instead of evading the answer with irrelevant arguments.
peace Ayman
I do not know what you want to listen ? is this ayat taking my name, or was exclusively reserved/ revealed for me?
I understand what it says , which is exactly the same, what a normal working brain would comprehend. I had spelled it in the very beginning of this thread , here it is if you had missed that.
Quote by siki as reply no 5 on the first page,
However Fatayat is any young girl , she could be your MMA, (slave girl, which your right hand posses) servant, daughter, sister , niece etc, Any young girl who could be under an individual's(man or a woman) influence to be compelled into committing such an act.
siki
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Peace Siki,
As for your irrelevant arguments, you know that commands regarding "fornicators, thieves or oppressors" are always associated with strong prohibition and severe retribution and never with "after committing the act the god is forgiving" even without mentioning any repentance. Which is the bigger offence, stealing a loaf of bread and fornication between consenting adults or tying up your young daughter or young sister or young adopted female and then collecting money from complete strangers who happen to pass by so that they can rape her? What is wrong with your judgment?
Peace,
Ayman
Do you really mean what you say above(in red)? Do you think that this forgiveness is being dished out to the ones who force the young innocent into prostitution?
If this is the situation Brother ! i have serious doubts regarding your commitment to study/improve Quranic commandments.
This forgiveness is not being dished out to the wicked Guardians, without repenting, but to the innocent young female, for her forced act.
24-33 and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
24-33 You shall not force your girls to commit prostitution, seeking the materials of this world, if they wish to be chaste. If anyone forces them, then GOD, seeing that they are forced, is Forgiver, Merciful.
Peace Siki,
Which is the bigger offence, stealing a loaf of bread and fornication between consenting adults or tying up your young daughter or young sister or young adopted female and then collecting money from complete strangers who happen to pass by so that they can rape her? What is wrong with your judgment?
Peace,
Ayman
And to top it off , you dare Question "my judgment". brickwall elektro
siki
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Peace Siki,
Do you really mean what you say above(in red)? Do you think that this forgiveness is being dished out to the ones who force the young innocent into prostitution?
If this is the situation Brother ! i have serious doubts regarding your commitment to study/improve Quranic commandments.
This forgiveness is not being dished out to the wicked Guardians, without repenting, but to the innocent young female, for her forced act.
24-33 and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
24-33 You shall not force your girls to commit prostitution, seeking the materials of this world, if they wish to be chaste. If anyone forces them, then GOD, seeing that they are forced, is Forgiver, Merciful.
And to top it off , you dare Question "my judgment". brickwall elektroThe passage clearly says "after their compulsion" ("ba3d ikrahihin" not after "their doing something wrong/unconsentual" ("ba3d baghyahin". This is why you had to change the passage to say "seeing they are forced". Can you show me where the verb "seeing" is in the Arabic? Again, there is nothing about any penalty for the guardian who according to you forced them to prostitution.
Besides the passage says "do not compel your "fatayat" on "bagaa" when they desire "tahasunan"". By interpreting the passage as saying "do not compel your "fatayat" to prostitution when they desire to be chaste", you make the passage imply that it is OK to prostitute them when they don't desire to remain chaste!!! jedi
Again, all those logical problems are created by you taking neutral words such as "baghaa" and "ma malakat aymanukum" and twisting them to mean perverted things that are only in your mind and that have nothing to do with our practical reality.
The passage should simply be literally translated as follows
- ...and do not compel your young women (i.e., your daughters, your young sisters, or young adopted orphan women) on what is wrong/non-consentual, when they want protection, so that you may seek the materials of this low life, and whoever compels them, then the god after their compulsion is forgiving, merciful.
There is nothing in the passage (or the great reading as a whole) about young prostitutes, female sex slaves, concubines or any other perverted thing that sectarians propose. If anyone sees those things, then it is only because of their own preconceptions, fantasies, and attitudes towards females.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Siki,
The passage clearly says "after their compulsion" ("ba3d ikrahihin" not after "their doing something wrong/unconsentual" ("ba3d baghyahin".
peace Ayman
"After their compulsion" If for a second , we assume that you are right , that this compulsion is a general wrong done to the Fatayat, and lets say it is ,
"That she is forced against her will into an unwanted marriage"Now my question is ,What have they done wrong by submitting to their Guardian's will , that they are being told that God is forgiving merciful ?
I am quite sure that now , you will slip to the statement ,(as stated before in the previous post) that , NO this forgiveness is being dished out to the Guardian.
just in case you do come up with the above statement, My Question will be ,
If a Guardian , deceitfully , forces a Fatayat for a wrong ( which you think is , lets say forced marriage to an old rich man) , to gain materials of this word, would God be acting as Most Merciful, Forgiving ?
peace
siki
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Peace Siki,
Besides the passage says "do not compel your "fatayat" on "bagaa" when they desire "tahasunan"". By interpreting the passage as saying "do not compel your "fatayat" to prostitution when they desire to be chaste", you make the passage imply that it is OK to prostitute them when they don't desire to remain chaste!!! jedi
peace Ayman
The pimps commit a wrong , but a Guardian, taking advantage of his control and influence on a young mind (specially the one who is desirous of maintaining Chastity), deserves severer punishment. That is what we all are being cautioned against.
If a Fatayat is not desirous of Chastity, Then the question of compulsion does not arise. she will commit all such acts at her own will. She will find like minded (pimps) , and they will be responsible for their wrong acts. And hence the leverage, "if they are forced, God is forgiving most merciful". will be invalid for any such Fatayat.
siki
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Again, all those logical problems are created by you taking neutral words such as "baghaa" and "ma malakat aymanukum" and twisting them to mean perverted things that are only in your mind and that have nothing to do with our practical reality.
I think you are joking, or many be living in another planet, when you say, "such a situation does not exist practicaly",
And if by any chance, such a situation does exist, Do you think that God will not make an effort to warn those B,,,,,,, for their heinous crime?
siki
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Peace Siki,
If a Guardian , deceitfully , forces a Fatayat for a wrong ( which you think is , lets say forced marriage to an old rich man) , to gain materials of this word, would God be acting as Most Merciful, Forgiving ?
Yes. I know several young women who were forced to marry an older rich man and who grew to love him and ended up living happily ever after. On the other hand, I also know many young women who married the guy of their dreams that they loved deeply and then the dreams turned to nightmares and they were divorced a few years (and in some cases a few weeks) later. So sometimes those arranged marriages where the woman is compelled to marry someone by her parents do work out fine.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Siki,
The pimps commit a wrong , but a Guardian, taking advantage of his control and influence on a young mind (specially the one who is desirous of maintaining Chastity), deserves severer punishment. That is what we all are being cautioned against.
What is the punishment?
If a Fatayat is not desirous of Chastity, Then the question of compulsion does not arise. she will commit all such acts at her own will. She will find like minded (pimps) , and they will be responsible for their wrong acts. And hence the leverage, "if they are forced, God is forgiving most merciful". will be invalid for any such Fatayat.
This is a typical case of a Freudian slip betraying the subconcious issues that you have with females. To you any girl who doesn't want to be chaste is automatically a prostitute!!! So if a girl is in love with her boyfriend and they are intimate, to you she is a prostitute!!!! I advise you to calm down, think rationally and take a deep look at your statements from a neutral point of view.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Siki,
I think you are joking, or many be living in another planet, when you say, "such a situation does not exist practicaly",
And if by any chance, such a situation does exist, Do you think that God will not make an effort to warn those B,,,,,,, for their heinous crime?It is certainly not the FIRST thing that comes to mind (except if one's mind has perverted preconceptions). Also, where is the warning? There is no punishment whatsoever in the passage.
Let's at least agree that the literal translation of the passage is the following
- ...and do not compel your young women on what is wrong/non-consentual, when they want protection, so that you may seek the materials of this low life, and whoever compels them, then the god after their compulsion is forgiving, merciful.
This is a closely literal translation without any bias or preconceptions. Some will read "young women" and think of "slave girls", others may read "what is wrong/non-consentual" and think "prostitution" and others may read "protection" and think "wearing the Burqa". It doesn't matter, we cannot change the mentality of people towards females anyway. All we can do is present the passage in the least biased way possible. So you are free to think what you want as long as you agree to the literal translation of the passage.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace bro Ayman,
- ...and do not compel your young women on what is wrong/non-consensual, when they want protection, so that you may seek the materials of this low life, and whoever compels them, then the god after their compulsion is forgiving, merciful.
The "them" and "their" in the underlined portion of the above translation both refer to the young women, so it seems that the god is forgiving and merciful to the young women who were compelled and not the "whoever" who compelled them.
If the god was referring to the "whoever" who compelled being forgiven, then it should have read "then the god after his compelling them is forgiving, merciful".
It does not make any sense to me that the god is first commanding the parents/guardians not to compel their young women on what is wrong/non-consensual, and then forgiving them for doing so without any repentance. Why should they not compel them when they are going to be forgiven for it anyway ? Therefore, on this issue I will have to respectfully disagree with your understanding and agree with bro sikandar's understanding of the god forgiving the young women who were compelled without their consent.
By the way, in the other thread where you heard the term "playing on weak wicket", it referred to the game of cricket which is popular in Pakistan, and the three stumps of wood that the batsman is trying to guard against the bowler are called the "wicket". "Weak wicket" indicates the game being unfavorable to the batsman whereas the batsman is unable to defend his wicket as well as he would like to (your position in the discussion being weak and indefensible as per his wishful analogy). However, the way the discussion is going in that thread, it is obvious that he is the one playing on an extremely weak wicket !!
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicket
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Peace bro Ayman,
The "them" and "their" in the underlined portion of the above translation both refer to the young women, so it seems that the god is forgiving and merciful to the young women who were compelled and not the "whoever" who compelled them.
If the god was referring to the "whoever" who compelled being forgiven, then it should have read "then the god after his compelling them is forgiving, merciful".
Salaam Tanweer
Just because the "their" refers to young women, this does not mean "compulsion" does too. According to the Arabic sentence, "their" is a direct object to the verbal noun "ikraah". It could well be "after the compulsion", showing that the pronon "their" is not indispensible. The forgiveness is for the compulsion, done by the guardians, not the submission of the young girl.
Example After I read the book, I went to sleep. After reading the book.... After its reading....
"Its" refers to book, but reading, which is the main word here refers to me.