and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution...
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Brother Ayman and siki,
Asslamo alaikum.First of all brother siki why are you unnecessarily attributing mention of sick mind in Ayman?s post to mean it refers to you alone. Was'nt it just a general remark to make me understand things in some lovely manner.
walakum aslam Brother
"Muslims are terrorist, or " Pakistanis are B,,,,,,,.
If some body passes a silly statement like above, and when "my brother Mazhar" responds to it , An on looker comments, "Why are you taking this as an offense , he has not abused you alone"?
And, his "LOVELY MANNERS" are always twisted.
Peace Siki,
So you do think that 2433 has nothing to do with you or anyone you know and it is only a theoretical passage as far as you are concerned.
Peace Ayman.
Your logic , and further insistence upon it , is quite strange considering your intellect.
Going by your logic , Do we have to ignore all those commandments , regarding fornicators , thieves or oppressors, by saying , OH NO , this is not for me, or this ayah means something else because i consider my self to be, Not ALL That?
Are the the "Pimps" some alien specie? do i have to explain it to you that " Yes, in each of us, there is a pimp lurking somewhere in dark corners of our personalties.
i will continue.
siki
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Brother siki,
Thanks. Difference of opinion does not permit us to break the bondage of brotherhood. Let us call ayman our brother. We should keep differing with him unless he is conviced or makes us convince. The advice about fatayaat, if they are slave servants would include not to sell them, to eventually end slavery. We are advised that when we come across absurd things we should not indulge into dispute; just pass by. We didn't do so with Rushde; and he is now "Sir", we earned him this title. -
Peace Siki,
Your logic , and further insistence upon it , is quite strange considering your intellect.
Going by your logic , Do we have to ignore all those commandments , regarding fornicators , thieves or oppressors, by saying , OH NO , this is not for me, or this ayah means something else because i consider my self to be, Not ALL That?
Are the the "Pimps" some alien specie? do i have to explain it to you that " Yes, in each of us, there is a pimp lurking somewhere in dark corners of our personalties.
i will continue.Again the command is clear that it is talking about "your young females" and you agree to that. So who are your young females? Please answer instead of evading the answer with irrelevant arguments.
As for your irrelevant arguments, you know that commands regarding "fornicators, thieves or oppressors" are always associated with strong prohibition and severe retribution and never with "after committing the act the god is forgiving" even without mentioning any repentance. Which is the bigger offence, stealing a loaf of bread and fornication between consenting adults or tying up your young daughter or young sister or young adopted female and then collecting money from complete strangers who happen to pass by so that they can rape her? What is wrong with your judgment?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Siki,
You don't even know the meaning of "mohsanat" and thus you don't translate it. It simply means "protected". When you say that a woman is protected. What does that mean? Does the meaning that she is not a prostitute or a slave girl the first thing that comes to mind? Only in as you say "sick minds" that whenever they see anything interpret it in a perverted manner. To any sensible person "a woman is protected" means that she can take care of herself (i.e. is mature) or her family can take care of her.
Peace Brother Ayman
The problem is that you are considering me as some one who is still stuck up with traditionalist's understanding of the term "Mohsinnat" , and hence is unable to comprehend your "Protected theory".
let me correct you here , No,, i am not , when i studied this term , i did find holes in traditionalist,s view which compelled you to improve upon it by presenting "The protected one". During my study When i scrutinized "The protected theory" , i found that though, it plugged some holes, but created quite a few more. So I had to get back to the drawing board in order to come up with an understanding, which is an improvemet to both , but is closer to the traditionalists view.
Problem I am facing at this time is, that you are stuck up with your "protected" idea, and hence do not pay attention to any thing, what any one else, logically puts forward.
Discussion on "Mohsinnats" or "HSN" , is out side the scope of this thread , i suggest that we open up a new thread regarding your "Protected theory" and you will find me "more than willing" to debate this issue with you. Till then lets keep our discussion in studying the term "Bagha" , and its meaning in contest to ayat 24-33.
I will continue, but meanwhile i sincerely recommend that you take a re look at my post (which i am quoting down below ), and try giving it a serious thought.
peace
siki
Peace Ayman
I do not agree with you regrading interpretation of Bagha in context to 24-33, even if you consider this to be a product of my sick mind.
"Bagha", in general means wrong and i am in agreement with you on this. But the meanings become "specific" in relation to the subject of a sentense.
I am not an Arabic expert or a linguist but i do push my common sense to limits, for making up these deficiencies . So here is what it says regarding the use of word "Baghaa" in specific to verse 24-33.
Let me start with an example,
HSN or HASSAna means , protected ,fortified , locked, etc but when the subject is womens sexuality , it becomes protected sexuality,(4-24-25) or we can say "Chastity", the same word when used for a building, becomes a "Fortress", (59,2and14) and the same, when used along/in context to private parts, depicts virginity(19-20).
You could have been right if this sentense had finished at,---- "And do not compel your Young females to commit wrong.......... it would have opened its application in "general "to all aspects of "wrongs" in life.
But Brother! what follows after this sentense is, ----"If they are desirous of being chaste"
this particular phrase , puts precision back into the first sentense, of "wrong" and locks the meanings of Bagha in specific to sexuality.what all can be committed wrong in sexual terms of a young female? Fornication , may be , but then we have to further modify it , because a certain sentense has been inserted here, AARZUL--HAYATUL--DUNIYA, SEEKING THE MATERIAL GAINS OF THIS WORLD
Meaning, " you are forcing her to commit a wrong, which is in sexual contest, (fornication) to gain the materials in this world",
what else can we call the above ? other than " Prostitution"
peace
siki
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Peace Siki,
Again the command is clear that it is talking about "your young females" and you agree to that. So who are your young females? Please answer instead of evading the answer with irrelevant arguments.
peace Ayman
I do not know what you want to listen ? is this ayat taking my name, or was exclusively reserved/ revealed for me?
I understand what it says , which is exactly the same, what a normal working brain would comprehend. I had spelled it in the very beginning of this thread , here it is if you had missed that.
Quote by siki as reply no 5 on the first page,
However Fatayat is any young girl , she could be your MMA, (slave girl, which your right hand posses) servant, daughter, sister , niece etc, Any young girl who could be under an individual's(man or a woman) influence to be compelled into committing such an act.
siki
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Peace Siki,
As for your irrelevant arguments, you know that commands regarding "fornicators, thieves or oppressors" are always associated with strong prohibition and severe retribution and never with "after committing the act the god is forgiving" even without mentioning any repentance. Which is the bigger offence, stealing a loaf of bread and fornication between consenting adults or tying up your young daughter or young sister or young adopted female and then collecting money from complete strangers who happen to pass by so that they can rape her? What is wrong with your judgment?
Peace,
Ayman
Do you really mean what you say above(in red)? Do you think that this forgiveness is being dished out to the ones who force the young innocent into prostitution?
If this is the situation Brother ! i have serious doubts regarding your commitment to study/improve Quranic commandments.
This forgiveness is not being dished out to the wicked Guardians, without repenting, but to the innocent young female, for her forced act.
24-33 and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
24-33 You shall not force your girls to commit prostitution, seeking the materials of this world, if they wish to be chaste. If anyone forces them, then GOD, seeing that they are forced, is Forgiver, Merciful.
Peace Siki,
Which is the bigger offence, stealing a loaf of bread and fornication between consenting adults or tying up your young daughter or young sister or young adopted female and then collecting money from complete strangers who happen to pass by so that they can rape her? What is wrong with your judgment?
Peace,
Ayman
And to top it off , you dare Question "my judgment". brickwall elektro
siki
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Peace Siki,
Do you really mean what you say above(in red)? Do you think that this forgiveness is being dished out to the ones who force the young innocent into prostitution?
If this is the situation Brother ! i have serious doubts regarding your commitment to study/improve Quranic commandments.
This forgiveness is not being dished out to the wicked Guardians, without repenting, but to the innocent young female, for her forced act.
24-33 and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
24-33 You shall not force your girls to commit prostitution, seeking the materials of this world, if they wish to be chaste. If anyone forces them, then GOD, seeing that they are forced, is Forgiver, Merciful.
And to top it off , you dare Question "my judgment". brickwall elektroThe passage clearly says "after their compulsion" ("ba3d ikrahihin" not after "their doing something wrong/unconsentual" ("ba3d baghyahin". This is why you had to change the passage to say "seeing they are forced". Can you show me where the verb "seeing" is in the Arabic? Again, there is nothing about any penalty for the guardian who according to you forced them to prostitution.
Besides the passage says "do not compel your "fatayat" on "bagaa" when they desire "tahasunan"". By interpreting the passage as saying "do not compel your "fatayat" to prostitution when they desire to be chaste", you make the passage imply that it is OK to prostitute them when they don't desire to remain chaste!!! jedi
Again, all those logical problems are created by you taking neutral words such as "baghaa" and "ma malakat aymanukum" and twisting them to mean perverted things that are only in your mind and that have nothing to do with our practical reality.
The passage should simply be literally translated as follows
- ...and do not compel your young women (i.e., your daughters, your young sisters, or young adopted orphan women) on what is wrong/non-consentual, when they want protection, so that you may seek the materials of this low life, and whoever compels them, then the god after their compulsion is forgiving, merciful.
There is nothing in the passage (or the great reading as a whole) about young prostitutes, female sex slaves, concubines or any other perverted thing that sectarians propose. If anyone sees those things, then it is only because of their own preconceptions, fantasies, and attitudes towards females.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Siki,
The passage clearly says "after their compulsion" ("ba3d ikrahihin" not after "their doing something wrong/unconsentual" ("ba3d baghyahin".
peace Ayman
"After their compulsion" If for a second , we assume that you are right , that this compulsion is a general wrong done to the Fatayat, and lets say it is ,
"That she is forced against her will into an unwanted marriage"Now my question is ,What have they done wrong by submitting to their Guardian's will , that they are being told that God is forgiving merciful ?
I am quite sure that now , you will slip to the statement ,(as stated before in the previous post) that , NO this forgiveness is being dished out to the Guardian.
just in case you do come up with the above statement, My Question will be ,
If a Guardian , deceitfully , forces a Fatayat for a wrong ( which you think is , lets say forced marriage to an old rich man) , to gain materials of this word, would God be acting as Most Merciful, Forgiving ?
peace
siki
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Peace Siki,
Besides the passage says "do not compel your "fatayat" on "bagaa" when they desire "tahasunan"". By interpreting the passage as saying "do not compel your "fatayat" to prostitution when they desire to be chaste", you make the passage imply that it is OK to prostitute them when they don't desire to remain chaste!!! jedi
peace Ayman
The pimps commit a wrong , but a Guardian, taking advantage of his control and influence on a young mind (specially the one who is desirous of maintaining Chastity), deserves severer punishment. That is what we all are being cautioned against.
If a Fatayat is not desirous of Chastity, Then the question of compulsion does not arise. she will commit all such acts at her own will. She will find like minded (pimps) , and they will be responsible for their wrong acts. And hence the leverage, "if they are forced, God is forgiving most merciful". will be invalid for any such Fatayat.
siki
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Again, all those logical problems are created by you taking neutral words such as "baghaa" and "ma malakat aymanukum" and twisting them to mean perverted things that are only in your mind and that have nothing to do with our practical reality.
I think you are joking, or many be living in another planet, when you say, "such a situation does not exist practicaly",
And if by any chance, such a situation does exist, Do you think that God will not make an effort to warn those B,,,,,,, for their heinous crime?
siki
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Peace Siki,
If a Guardian , deceitfully , forces a Fatayat for a wrong ( which you think is , lets say forced marriage to an old rich man) , to gain materials of this word, would God be acting as Most Merciful, Forgiving ?
Yes. I know several young women who were forced to marry an older rich man and who grew to love him and ended up living happily ever after. On the other hand, I also know many young women who married the guy of their dreams that they loved deeply and then the dreams turned to nightmares and they were divorced a few years (and in some cases a few weeks) later. So sometimes those arranged marriages where the woman is compelled to marry someone by her parents do work out fine.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Siki,
The pimps commit a wrong , but a Guardian, taking advantage of his control and influence on a young mind (specially the one who is desirous of maintaining Chastity), deserves severer punishment. That is what we all are being cautioned against.
What is the punishment?
If a Fatayat is not desirous of Chastity, Then the question of compulsion does not arise. she will commit all such acts at her own will. She will find like minded (pimps) , and they will be responsible for their wrong acts. And hence the leverage, "if they are forced, God is forgiving most merciful". will be invalid for any such Fatayat.
This is a typical case of a Freudian slip betraying the subconcious issues that you have with females. To you any girl who doesn't want to be chaste is automatically a prostitute!!! So if a girl is in love with her boyfriend and they are intimate, to you she is a prostitute!!!! I advise you to calm down, think rationally and take a deep look at your statements from a neutral point of view.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Siki,
I think you are joking, or many be living in another planet, when you say, "such a situation does not exist practicaly",
And if by any chance, such a situation does exist, Do you think that God will not make an effort to warn those B,,,,,,, for their heinous crime?It is certainly not the FIRST thing that comes to mind (except if one's mind has perverted preconceptions). Also, where is the warning? There is no punishment whatsoever in the passage.
Let's at least agree that the literal translation of the passage is the following
- ...and do not compel your young women on what is wrong/non-consentual, when they want protection, so that you may seek the materials of this low life, and whoever compels them, then the god after their compulsion is forgiving, merciful.
This is a closely literal translation without any bias or preconceptions. Some will read "young women" and think of "slave girls", others may read "what is wrong/non-consentual" and think "prostitution" and others may read "protection" and think "wearing the Burqa". It doesn't matter, we cannot change the mentality of people towards females anyway. All we can do is present the passage in the least biased way possible. So you are free to think what you want as long as you agree to the literal translation of the passage.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace bro Ayman,
- ...and do not compel your young women on what is wrong/non-consensual, when they want protection, so that you may seek the materials of this low life, and whoever compels them, then the god after their compulsion is forgiving, merciful.
The "them" and "their" in the underlined portion of the above translation both refer to the young women, so it seems that the god is forgiving and merciful to the young women who were compelled and not the "whoever" who compelled them.
If the god was referring to the "whoever" who compelled being forgiven, then it should have read "then the god after his compelling them is forgiving, merciful".
It does not make any sense to me that the god is first commanding the parents/guardians not to compel their young women on what is wrong/non-consensual, and then forgiving them for doing so without any repentance. Why should they not compel them when they are going to be forgiven for it anyway ? Therefore, on this issue I will have to respectfully disagree with your understanding and agree with bro sikandar's understanding of the god forgiving the young women who were compelled without their consent.
By the way, in the other thread where you heard the term "playing on weak wicket", it referred to the game of cricket which is popular in Pakistan, and the three stumps of wood that the batsman is trying to guard against the bowler are called the "wicket". "Weak wicket" indicates the game being unfavorable to the batsman whereas the batsman is unable to defend his wicket as well as he would like to (your position in the discussion being weak and indefensible as per his wishful analogy). However, the way the discussion is going in that thread, it is obvious that he is the one playing on an extremely weak wicket !!
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicket
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Peace bro Ayman,
The "them" and "their" in the underlined portion of the above translation both refer to the young women, so it seems that the god is forgiving and merciful to the young women who were compelled and not the "whoever" who compelled them.
If the god was referring to the "whoever" who compelled being forgiven, then it should have read "then the god after his compelling them is forgiving, merciful".
Salaam Tanweer
Just because the "their" refers to young women, this does not mean "compulsion" does too. According to the Arabic sentence, "their" is a direct object to the verbal noun "ikraah". It could well be "after the compulsion", showing that the pronon "their" is not indispensible. The forgiveness is for the compulsion, done by the guardians, not the submission of the young girl.
Example After I read the book, I went to sleep. After reading the book.... After its reading....
"Its" refers to book, but reading, which is the main word here refers to me. -
" After Their compulsion,"
Come on Samia,
The compulsion is an act which belongs to the one who is being compelled , not to the one who is dishing out,, and hence the one who is being compelled to do wrong , God will act Most merciful forgiving , because HE knows that she did not do that out of her own will,
And the Guardian, who is being warned, not to do any such act, to gain the materials of this word, , Would god act as forgiving , most merciful?
,,,,,"And someone compels them , Then Allah after Their compulsion , will be Most merciful , forgiving,
siki
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Peace,
Excuse me for barging in, but I just wanted to say that according to J. G. Hava's "Arabic-English dictionary", pg. 546, the meanings of "maid servant" and "prostitute, strumpet" are Syrian and Egyptian, respectively. The classical arabic meaning given is as "Fullgrown girl".
Nadeem
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Salaam siki
What sin did those young girls do? What is God forgiving them for? What about the guardian who compelled them?
I agree that linguistically a pronoun suffixed to a verbal noun can either be the subject or the direct object of the verb. We already know that the subject who did the compelling is the guardian, so the only explanation of the suffixed pronoun is that it is te direct object. God is not forgiving the girls but the compulsion.