and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution...
-
Peace Siki,
If a Guardian , deceitfully , forces a Fatayat for a wrong ( which you think is , lets say forced marriage to an old rich man) , to gain materials of this word, would God be acting as Most Merciful, Forgiving ?
Yes. I know several young women who were forced to marry an older rich man and who grew to love him and ended up living happily ever after. On the other hand, I also know many young women who married the guy of their dreams that they loved deeply and then the dreams turned to nightmares and they were divorced a few years (and in some cases a few weeks) later. So sometimes those arranged marriages where the woman is compelled to marry someone by her parents do work out fine.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Siki,
The pimps commit a wrong , but a Guardian, taking advantage of his control and influence on a young mind (specially the one who is desirous of maintaining Chastity), deserves severer punishment. That is what we all are being cautioned against.
What is the punishment?
If a Fatayat is not desirous of Chastity, Then the question of compulsion does not arise. she will commit all such acts at her own will. She will find like minded (pimps) , and they will be responsible for their wrong acts. And hence the leverage, "if they are forced, God is forgiving most merciful". will be invalid for any such Fatayat.
This is a typical case of a Freudian slip betraying the subconcious issues that you have with females. To you any girl who doesn't want to be chaste is automatically a prostitute!!! So if a girl is in love with her boyfriend and they are intimate, to you she is a prostitute!!!! I advise you to calm down, think rationally and take a deep look at your statements from a neutral point of view.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Siki,
I think you are joking, or many be living in another planet, when you say, "such a situation does not exist practicaly",
And if by any chance, such a situation does exist, Do you think that God will not make an effort to warn those B,,,,,,, for their heinous crime?It is certainly not the FIRST thing that comes to mind (except if one's mind has perverted preconceptions). Also, where is the warning? There is no punishment whatsoever in the passage.
Let's at least agree that the literal translation of the passage is the following
- ...and do not compel your young women on what is wrong/non-consentual, when they want protection, so that you may seek the materials of this low life, and whoever compels them, then the god after their compulsion is forgiving, merciful.
This is a closely literal translation without any bias or preconceptions. Some will read "young women" and think of "slave girls", others may read "what is wrong/non-consentual" and think "prostitution" and others may read "protection" and think "wearing the Burqa". It doesn't matter, we cannot change the mentality of people towards females anyway. All we can do is present the passage in the least biased way possible. So you are free to think what you want as long as you agree to the literal translation of the passage.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace bro Ayman,
- ...and do not compel your young women on what is wrong/non-consensual, when they want protection, so that you may seek the materials of this low life, and whoever compels them, then the god after their compulsion is forgiving, merciful.
The "them" and "their" in the underlined portion of the above translation both refer to the young women, so it seems that the god is forgiving and merciful to the young women who were compelled and not the "whoever" who compelled them.
If the god was referring to the "whoever" who compelled being forgiven, then it should have read "then the god after his compelling them is forgiving, merciful".
It does not make any sense to me that the god is first commanding the parents/guardians not to compel their young women on what is wrong/non-consensual, and then forgiving them for doing so without any repentance. Why should they not compel them when they are going to be forgiven for it anyway ? Therefore, on this issue I will have to respectfully disagree with your understanding and agree with bro sikandar's understanding of the god forgiving the young women who were compelled without their consent.
By the way, in the other thread where you heard the term "playing on weak wicket", it referred to the game of cricket which is popular in Pakistan, and the three stumps of wood that the batsman is trying to guard against the bowler are called the "wicket". "Weak wicket" indicates the game being unfavorable to the batsman whereas the batsman is unable to defend his wicket as well as he would like to (your position in the discussion being weak and indefensible as per his wishful analogy). However, the way the discussion is going in that thread, it is obvious that he is the one playing on an extremely weak wicket !!
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicket
-
Peace bro Ayman,
The "them" and "their" in the underlined portion of the above translation both refer to the young women, so it seems that the god is forgiving and merciful to the young women who were compelled and not the "whoever" who compelled them.
If the god was referring to the "whoever" who compelled being forgiven, then it should have read "then the god after his compelling them is forgiving, merciful".
Salaam Tanweer
Just because the "their" refers to young women, this does not mean "compulsion" does too. According to the Arabic sentence, "their" is a direct object to the verbal noun "ikraah". It could well be "after the compulsion", showing that the pronon "their" is not indispensible. The forgiveness is for the compulsion, done by the guardians, not the submission of the young girl.
Example After I read the book, I went to sleep. After reading the book.... After its reading....
"Its" refers to book, but reading, which is the main word here refers to me. -
" After Their compulsion,"
Come on Samia,
The compulsion is an act which belongs to the one who is being compelled , not to the one who is dishing out,, and hence the one who is being compelled to do wrong , God will act Most merciful forgiving , because HE knows that she did not do that out of her own will,
And the Guardian, who is being warned, not to do any such act, to gain the materials of this word, , Would god act as forgiving , most merciful?
,,,,,"And someone compels them , Then Allah after Their compulsion , will be Most merciful , forgiving,
siki
-
Peace,
Excuse me for barging in, but I just wanted to say that according to J. G. Hava's "Arabic-English dictionary", pg. 546, the meanings of "maid servant" and "prostitute, strumpet" are Syrian and Egyptian, respectively. The classical arabic meaning given is as "Fullgrown girl".
Nadeem
-
Salaam siki
What sin did those young girls do? What is God forgiving them for? What about the guardian who compelled them?
I agree that linguistically a pronoun suffixed to a verbal noun can either be the subject or the direct object of the verb. We already know that the subject who did the compelling is the guardian, so the only explanation of the suffixed pronoun is that it is te direct object. God is not forgiving the girls but the compulsion.
-
My Dear Dear Sister , Sholom
You know, i am preparing to launch that "Rocket" containing, "The good old 3 worded Red sentence", again at you. So i better run &, and find a hardened shelter for myself . Just in case, you return the favour with an equal Bang. jedi
Ok, ok, Cease Fire, handshake
;D ;D To tell you the truth sis, hmm lately i have started to comprehend the thread titled, " Why didn't God send any female Messengers". >D >D
-
My Dear Dear Sister , Sholom
You know, i am preparing to launch that "Rocket" containing, "The good old 3 worded Red sentence", again at you. So i better run &, and find a hardened shelter for myself . Just in case, you return the favour with an equal Bang. jedi
Ok, ok, Cease Fire, handshake
;D ;D To tell you the truth sis, hmm lately i have started to comprehend the thread titled, " Why didn't God send any female Messengers". >D >D
HEHEHE! Don't worry, I am very peaceful voodoo
And I know why God did not send women messengers He has to send a messenge that is not just for the elites peace
-
" Why didn't God send any female Messengers".
GOD did!!!
Exodus 15
20 Then Miriam the prophetess, Aaron's sister, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women followed her, with tambourines and dancing. 21 Miriam sang to them
"Sing to the LORD,
for he is highly exalted.
The horse and its rider
he has hurled into the seaJudges 4 & 5 Deborah, a prophet-judge, headed the army of ancient Israel.
2 Kings 2214; 2 Chronicles 3422 Huldah, a prophet, verified the authenticity of the "Book of the Law of the Lord given through Moses" - the Book of Deuteronomy. She triggered a religious renewal.
Acts 936 The author of Luke referred to a female disciple of Jesus by her Aramaic name Tabitha, who was also known by her Greek name Dorcas. She became sick had died; St. Peter brought her back to life.
Acts 218 Philip the evangelist had four unmarried daughters who were prophets.
Philippians 42 Paul refers to two women, Euodia and Syntyche, as his co-workers who were active evangelicals, spreading the gospel.
Romans 161 Paul refers to Phoebe as a minister or deacon of the church at Cenchrea. The Greek word which describes her function is "diakonos" which means literally "official servant." She is the only deacon in the Bible to be identified by name. Some translations say deaconess; others try to obscure her position by mistranslating the Greek as a simple "servant" or "helper". Paul later refers to Phoebe as a woman, calling her "our sister." This prevented later church leaders from hiding her gender as they did with Junia in Romans 167 below - by changing her name and implying that she was a man.
Romans 163 Paul refers to Priscilla as another of his "fellow workers in Christ Jesus" (NIV) Other translations refer to her as a "co-worker". But other translations attempt to downgrade her status by calling her a "helper". The original Greek word is "synergoi", which literally means "fellow worker" or "colleague." 1 It is worth noting that Paul refers to Priscilla and her husband as "Priscilla and Aquila" in this passage and as "Aquila and Priscilla" in 1 Corinthians 1619. It would appear that the order is not important to Paul. As in Galatians 328, he apparently believed that there is no distinction among those who have been baptized into Christ between male and female.
Romans 167 Paul refers to a male apostle, Andronicus, and a female apostle, Junia, as "outstanding among the apostles" (NIV) Every Greek and Latin church Father until Giles of Rome (circa 1000 CE) acknowledged that Junia was a woman. -
Quote from siki on June 20, 2007, 072542 AM
If a Guardian , deceitfully , forces a Fatayat for a wrong ( which you think is , lets say forced marriage to an old rich man) , to gain materials of this word, would God be acting as Most Merciful, Forgiving ?Yes. I know several young women who were forced to marry an older rich man and who grew to love him and ended up living happily ever after. On the other hand, I also know many young women who married the guy of their dreams that they loved deeply and then the dreams turned to nightmares and they were divorced a few years (and in some cases a few weeks) later. So sometimes those arranged marriages where the woman is compelled to marry someone by her parents do work out fine.
This still does not answer the question what lawful limits would the fatayat be seeking to exceed if al-bighaa is referring to "forced marriage".
(bighaa meaning seeking something unlawfully)
-
Still no mention of ar-rijaal here. Also an-nisa does not include al-wildan/children. Al-wildan are seperate from ar-rijaal and an-nisaa. (4/75, 4/9
Either I did not understand your initial question or I do not understand this post of yours. What do "alwildan" and "alyatama" do in an explanation about "alnisaa'"? Here's the verse
"They ask your legal instruction concerning the "nisaa'". Say God instructs you concerning them and what is recited to you in the book concerning
- fatherless children of women whom you do not pay what's prescribed for them and want to marry them,
- and the children who are vulnerable, weak and oppressed,
- and the orphans that you should stand firm for their justice.
All that you do of goodness God is all aware of it).
1,2 and 3 are the sub-categories of "nisaa'".
Yes, there is no rijaal in this verse. Why should there be? It's about "nisaa' the vulnerable". But it does include males. When a verse speaks of "rijaal", this word includes females -
Either I did not understand your initial question or I do not understand this post of yours. What do "alwildan" and "alyatama" do in an explanation about "alnisaa'"? Here's the verse
"They ask your legal instruction concerning the "nisaa'". Say God instructs you concerning them and what is recited to you in the book concerning
- fatherless children of women whom you do not pay what's prescribed for them and want to marry them,
- and the children who are vulnerable, weak and oppressed,
- and the orphans that you should stand firm for their justice.
All that you do of goodness God is all aware of it).
1,2 and 3 are the sub-categories of "nisaa'".
Yes 'God instructs you concerning THEM as well as what is recited to you in the book concerning...'
Only the "hunna/them" is referring to the nisaa. The rest(1,2 and 3) are distinctly mentioned and are not sub-categories of nisaa, as wildan/children are distinct from rijaal/men and nisaa/women(4/75, 4/9, and are not counted among an-naas(group of rijaalan and nisaa'an, 4/1)
Yes, there is no rijaal in this verse. Why should there be? It's about "nisaa' the vulnerable". But it does include males. When a verse speaks of "rijaal", this word includes females
Nisaa can possess masculine traits, and rijaal can possess feminine traits(42/49-50), but rijaal cannot include nisaa, or vice versa. Rijaal and Nisaa are distinct from each other. Wildan can be male/zakr or/and female/unsa(3/36, 49/50), but cannot be rijaal/men or nisaa/women. Wildan are distinct from rijaal and nisaa.