Got som important Questions about Adultery?
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Hi Stefan Rosty,
You say that the punishment is for cheating or prostitution, but then in the verse you site, it mentions fornication as well....so which one is it?
"The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment."
I would like to think that the punishment would be for adulterers, as I do not see fornication between two single individuals as nearly on the same level as adultery, but "Zina" is most often translated as any sex outside of marriage, right (not that it makes it automatically right of course)??
Also, another thing that makes me skeptical of this punishment not being intended for fornicators is that in sura 24, in the context of this punishment, God makes mention of accusing '"free women" - doesn't "free women" signify that they are single and unmarried?
24.4] "And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors"
Like I said, I hope I am wrong with regards to this being intended for all sex outside of marriage alike, but I cannot ignore this
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is it a problem to get married ?
casual sex and one night stands are forbidden but the concept of punishment can not be applied since the act is done in private ,
but as a believer i can cross the lines without being punished by the society as long as im doing it secretly but i will be punished by god
hail
and at least it doesn't allow pornography and other sexual behaviors -
24.4] "And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors"
Like I said, I hope I am wrong with regards to this being intended for all sex outside of marriage alike, but I cannot ignore this
Peace,
But chaste women and free women are not the same I supposed. Where have you taken the translations of chaste to mean free?
Maria
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Peace,
But chaste women and free women are not the same I supposed. Where have you taken the translations of chaste to mean free?
Maria
"Free women" is from Shakir's Quran translation (my favorite thus far). Similarly, the progressive Muslim translation gives it as "independent women", again not chaste. However, I have seen it translated as "chaste" or "honorable" in other sources. But the fact is, a "chaste" woman would still imply that she is unmarried, and thus "free" (as I guess being married is equated with being enslaved? lol).
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"Chaste" means someone that doesn't sleep around, not someone unmarried.
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Peace Donya,
Alright, free, chaste, honorable etc ok no problem but what are you trying to prove?
If that verse 244 talk about to not accuse these women who are chaste or free, it not prove that it's ok to have sex outside marriage.
Why else then God advice us to get married!?
Maria
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Peace Donya,
Alright, free, chaste, honorable etc ok no problem but what are you trying to prove?
If that verse 244 talk about to not accuse these women who are chaste or free, it not prove that it's ok to have sex outside marriage.
Why else then God advice us to get married!?
Maria
If you want to see why God advises us, look at America. Two words Social cohesion. Being brought up by one parent, or worse, two fathers or two mothers, isn't nice.
It seems more like a balance point, an equilibrium of sorts - people will do whatever they like sexually within the confines of privacy - the believers will abstain - but it will not be allowed into the open. Perfect, I would say. Since when can anyone police the crime of adultery or fornication? Islamically, with 4 WITNESSES? Be serious.
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Peace Donya,
Alright, free, chaste, honorable etc ok no problem but what are you trying to prove?
If that verse 244 talk about to not accuse these women who are chaste or free, it not prove that it's ok to have sex outside marriage.
Why else then God advice us to get married!?
Maria
huh? I have said nothing about that verse implying fornication is ok - actually I did just the opposite with citing that verse (if accusing free women of having sex is so wrong, that clearly implies what they are being accused of is a huge sin, something punishable). My point had to do with the original question. If you see, the original question in this thread was whether the PUNISHMENT of 100 lashes applies to fornication as well as adultery. People have translated the law as applying to adulterers only, but my point was to show that I think it applies to fornicators as well, as verse 24.4 addresses accusing, what I believe to be "free women" i.e. unmarried - thus most likely applying the punishment to fornicators as well.
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It definitely applies to all public acts of fornication/adultery. There is a thread on this somewhere, a search should bring it up.
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Peace,
Ok, I'm not sure if the punishment is same for adulters and for fornicators though but as we know it takes 4 witness to be put in the judge.
But that doesn't matters if it comes to the punishments of God, God can punish whosoever he wants and we shall fear God and act in a good manner, try to avoid bad behaviour and immorality.
But I know that they punish in many so called muslim countries all who have illegal sex it doesn't matter if they are married or not.
I also want to know if Quran differ among adulters and fornicators when it comes to punishment.
Peace
Maria -
"Free women" is from Shakir's Quran translation (my favorite thus far). Similarly, the progressive Muslim translation gives it as "independent women", again not chaste. However, I have seen it translated as "chaste" or "honorable" in other sources. But the fact is, a "chaste" woman would still imply that she is unmarried, and thus "free" (as I guess being married is equated with being enslaved? lol).
We debated this "Mohsannat" thing in detail, It is a general term used for chaste women, , this definition fits in all relevent verses of Quran specially this one , where there is absolutely no ambiguity about they being the chaste women.All other definitions are imperfect, and some are Non sense.
Intrested in more , read this thread. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13799.0
"Shakir" has probably a better translation than the rest, and is my favourite too,. But here , unfortunately he has gone wrong.
peace
siki
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Salaam all
How do you define a woman who is not chaste? Examples will be appreciated.
Engaging in zina rotfl P
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Engaging in zina rotfl P
Yeah exactly but she can repent and become chaste. God is merciful!!!!
Maria
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Engaging in zina rotfl P
That's all? Then ALL women are chaste until seen by 4 people at least...
Yeah exactly but she can repent and become chaste. God is merciful!!!!
...then she returns to the pool. Not really a classification that calls for a special way of dealing with a category of women. I mean in the verse 244 it suffies to say "Those who accuse women and do not bring 4 witnesses...", because even the zaania is included in these women UNTIL 4 witnesses are presented.
In short, "mu7sanaat" meaning "chaste" does not hold water in any verse.
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That's all? Then ALL women are chaste until seen by 4 people at least...
...then she returns to the pool. Not really a classification that calls for a special way of dealing with a category of women. I mean in the verse 244 it suffies to say "Those who accuse women and do not bring 4 witnesses...", because even the zaania is included in these women UNTIL 4 witnesses are presented.
In short, "mu7sanaat" meaning "chaste" does not hold water in any verse.
My dear sister samia ! May i have your permission to modify your above statement in red, and change it to ,, "A sweeping statement does not hold any water "
Do i dare ask your Majesty to kindly enlighten ! me/us with your version of Mohsinnats, in 24-4 ? eat eat
siki
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How many people committing adultery have 4 witnesses to it?!?!
Maybe its not about adultery but about slander. It could have been made to prevent slander and gossip and stop people who have seen the act to report the act. Since they have to bring 3 other witnesses or else they get smacked.
But what about pregnancy outside marriage?
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My dear sister samia ! May i have your permission to modify your above statement in red, and change it to ,, "A sweeping statement does not hold any water "
Do i dare ask your Majesty to kindly enlighten ! me/us with your version of Mohsinnats, in 24-4 ? eat eat
siki
We start by showing what a word is not.. and we leave the humble subjects to come up with a better understanding.
And who dared make the statement "sweeping" if we did not permit that? Throw them to the lions .. >D