Got som important Questions about Adultery?
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Peace Donya,
Alright, free, chaste, honorable etc ok no problem but what are you trying to prove?
If that verse 244 talk about to not accuse these women who are chaste or free, it not prove that it's ok to have sex outside marriage.
Why else then God advice us to get married!?
Maria
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Peace Donya,
Alright, free, chaste, honorable etc ok no problem but what are you trying to prove?
If that verse 244 talk about to not accuse these women who are chaste or free, it not prove that it's ok to have sex outside marriage.
Why else then God advice us to get married!?
Maria
If you want to see why God advises us, look at America. Two words Social cohesion. Being brought up by one parent, or worse, two fathers or two mothers, isn't nice.
It seems more like a balance point, an equilibrium of sorts - people will do whatever they like sexually within the confines of privacy - the believers will abstain - but it will not be allowed into the open. Perfect, I would say. Since when can anyone police the crime of adultery or fornication? Islamically, with 4 WITNESSES? Be serious.
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Peace Donya,
Alright, free, chaste, honorable etc ok no problem but what are you trying to prove?
If that verse 244 talk about to not accuse these women who are chaste or free, it not prove that it's ok to have sex outside marriage.
Why else then God advice us to get married!?
Maria
huh? I have said nothing about that verse implying fornication is ok - actually I did just the opposite with citing that verse (if accusing free women of having sex is so wrong, that clearly implies what they are being accused of is a huge sin, something punishable). My point had to do with the original question. If you see, the original question in this thread was whether the PUNISHMENT of 100 lashes applies to fornication as well as adultery. People have translated the law as applying to adulterers only, but my point was to show that I think it applies to fornicators as well, as verse 24.4 addresses accusing, what I believe to be "free women" i.e. unmarried - thus most likely applying the punishment to fornicators as well.
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It definitely applies to all public acts of fornication/adultery. There is a thread on this somewhere, a search should bring it up.
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Peace,
Ok, I'm not sure if the punishment is same for adulters and for fornicators though but as we know it takes 4 witness to be put in the judge.
But that doesn't matters if it comes to the punishments of God, God can punish whosoever he wants and we shall fear God and act in a good manner, try to avoid bad behaviour and immorality.
But I know that they punish in many so called muslim countries all who have illegal sex it doesn't matter if they are married or not.
I also want to know if Quran differ among adulters and fornicators when it comes to punishment.
Peace
Maria -
"Free women" is from Shakir's Quran translation (my favorite thus far). Similarly, the progressive Muslim translation gives it as "independent women", again not chaste. However, I have seen it translated as "chaste" or "honorable" in other sources. But the fact is, a "chaste" woman would still imply that she is unmarried, and thus "free" (as I guess being married is equated with being enslaved? lol).
We debated this "Mohsannat" thing in detail, It is a general term used for chaste women, , this definition fits in all relevent verses of Quran specially this one , where there is absolutely no ambiguity about they being the chaste women.All other definitions are imperfect, and some are Non sense.
Intrested in more , read this thread. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13799.0
"Shakir" has probably a better translation than the rest, and is my favourite too,. But here , unfortunately he has gone wrong.
peace
siki
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Salaam all
How do you define a woman who is not chaste? Examples will be appreciated.
Engaging in zina rotfl P
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Engaging in zina rotfl P
Yeah exactly but she can repent and become chaste. God is merciful!!!!
Maria
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Engaging in zina rotfl P
That's all? Then ALL women are chaste until seen by 4 people at least...
Yeah exactly but she can repent and become chaste. God is merciful!!!!
...then she returns to the pool. Not really a classification that calls for a special way of dealing with a category of women. I mean in the verse 244 it suffies to say "Those who accuse women and do not bring 4 witnesses...", because even the zaania is included in these women UNTIL 4 witnesses are presented.
In short, "mu7sanaat" meaning "chaste" does not hold water in any verse.
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That's all? Then ALL women are chaste until seen by 4 people at least...
...then she returns to the pool. Not really a classification that calls for a special way of dealing with a category of women. I mean in the verse 244 it suffies to say "Those who accuse women and do not bring 4 witnesses...", because even the zaania is included in these women UNTIL 4 witnesses are presented.
In short, "mu7sanaat" meaning "chaste" does not hold water in any verse.
My dear sister samia ! May i have your permission to modify your above statement in red, and change it to ,, "A sweeping statement does not hold any water "
Do i dare ask your Majesty to kindly enlighten ! me/us with your version of Mohsinnats, in 24-4 ? eat eat
siki
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How many people committing adultery have 4 witnesses to it?!?!
Maybe its not about adultery but about slander. It could have been made to prevent slander and gossip and stop people who have seen the act to report the act. Since they have to bring 3 other witnesses or else they get smacked.
But what about pregnancy outside marriage?
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My dear sister samia ! May i have your permission to modify your above statement in red, and change it to ,, "A sweeping statement does not hold any water "
Do i dare ask your Majesty to kindly enlighten ! me/us with your version of Mohsinnats, in 24-4 ? eat eat
siki
We start by showing what a word is not.. and we leave the humble subjects to come up with a better understanding.
And who dared make the statement "sweeping" if we did not permit that? Throw them to the lions .. >D
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We start by showing what a word is not.. and we leave the humble subjects to come up with a better understanding.
And who dared make the statement "sweeping" if we did not permit that? Throw them to the lions .. >
Your wish is my command, Madam! hail
And the ones who accuse the Free women of adultery ,and then fail to produce 4 witnesses,,,, > ignore
And the one who accuse Married women of adultery, and then fail to produce 4 witness,,,
And the ones who accuse the protected women of adultery ,and then fail to produce 4 witnesses,,,, o yuck
And the ones who accuse the self protected women of adultery ,and then fail to produce 4 witnesses,,,, -[ ???
And the ones who accuse the engaged protected women of adultry ,and then fail to produce 4 witnesses,,,, P confused
And the ones who accuse the honorable women of adultry ,and then fail to produce 4 witnesses,,,, '( brickwall
And the ones who accuse the independent women of adultry ,and then fail to produce 4 witnesses,,,, hypno elektro
voodoo voodoo voodoo voodoo voodoo voodoo voodoo voodoo voodoo
Your Majestey ! pr Now, if you promise to spare my life, & by retracting your last command of "throwing me to the lions", i would humbly re-submit my original plea, for your kind reconsideration,once again please, hail please ?
And the ones who accuse the chaste women of adultery ,and then fail to produce 4 witnesses,,,,
bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo
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Your wish is my command, Madam! hail
And the ones who accuse the Free women of adultery ,and then fail to produce 4 witnesses,,,, >( ignore
And the one who accuse Married women of adultery, and then fail to produce 4 witness,,, (
And the ones who accuse the protected women of adultery ,and then fail to produce 4 witnesses,,,, yuck
And the ones who accuse the self protected women of adultery ,and then fail to produce 4 witnesses,,,, -[ ???
And the ones who accuse the engaged protected women of adultry ,and then fail to produce 4 witnesses,,,, confused
And the ones who accuse the honorable women of adultry ,and then fail to produce 4 witnesses,,,, '( brickwall
And the ones who accuse the independent women of adultry ,and then fail to produce 4 witnesses,,,, hypno elektro
voodoo voodoo voodoo voodoo voodoo voodoo voodoo voodoo voodoo
Your Majestey ! pr Now, if you promise to spare my life, & by retracting your last command of "throwing me to the lions", i would humbly re-submit my original plea, for your kind reconsideration,once again please, hail please ?
And the ones who accuse the chaste women of adultery ,and then fail to produce 4 witnesses,,,,
bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo
Don't clap yet...We did not give permission or approval.
Good start.
Now think (it feels good to give orders to think ;D) of who would not be affected / naturally protected if accused of fornication.. ;D..
those will be the opposite of mu7sanaat -
Maybe its not about adultery but about slander. It could have been made to prevent slander and gossip and stop people who have seen the act to report the act. Since they have to bring 3 other witnesses or else they get smacked.
But what about pregnancy outside marriage?
Maybe it's both? A lot of these punishments have more than one single effect. And I think pregnancy outside of marriage would be included, why not?. All you would need is 4 doctors as witnesses, with DNA evidence.
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Don't clap yet...We did not give permission or approval.
Good start.
Now think (it feels good to give orders to think ;D) of who would not be affected / naturally protected if accused of fornication.. ;D..
those will be the opposite of mu7sanaatWhat's your understanding of it?
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Maybe it's both? P A lot of these punishments have more than one single effect. And I think pregnancy outside of marriage would be included, why not?. All you would need is 4 doctors as witnesses, with DNA evidence.
I don't think pregnancy is to be considered as evidence, although it is evidence against fornication (do we have a punishment for that?) but not evidence for public sex. Moreover, public sex requires 4 witnesses, unlike any other matter that requires two or even one witness. Any hard evidence is counted at most as two witnesses (as in other cases requiring witnesses). It can't be accepyed in lieu of 4 witnesses. (this is my own fatwa jedi)
The anology is drawn with pregnancy withing the marriage but from other than the husband. If it took place after at least six months of marriage, it belongs to the hsband and no tests are admitted. This is for the protection of the child, not the mother.