To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
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Salaam Hussein
That's not true. If they believe that a hadith can abrogate a verse, then not only do they believe that hadith is divine law, but they believe that it is more divine than the qur'aan. Example "No will to benefit a heir laa wasiyyata liwaarithin" abrogates 2180; stoning/killing adulterers abrogates 242; killing the apostates contradicts the teachings of the qur'aan. The theory of hadith/actions of the prophet abrogating some verses finds its way to the Islamic law/shari3a
I have to agree that Hadith cannot abrogate the Quran.But why a Quranist abrogates the order of the Quranic Ayaat e.g.
Do you blieve in "Itaa3t ur Rasool " mentioned in this aya;459
So you do not believe in abrogation of Quranic Aya, then why to reject "itaa3t ur Rasool"??? or double standards as usual. -
Dear
What is the Criteria that you think 100% that Quran is from God and it is preserved??Like I mentioned in my pre-previous post (pls read it again) I BELIEVE that the quran is from God due to its contents and form. I can't prove it. No-one can. I can just believe. But it's not blind faith becasue someone said that's how it is. For example, I haven't come across anything that point toward that the quran would NOT be from God. Same goes for the preservation of the message.
Classical Quranist mentality Avoid and circumvent the Question.
So you Admit that Quran is not "Creation" .
Right ?
Would you please tell this to other friends of you??Brother LEOXYZ,
First of all, I haven't been following the debate on the quran being created or uncreated or what.. so I haven't made any stand on that! Ok?
And how did you come to the conclusion that I think quran is not part of creation. I said GOD is not part of creation. I didn't even mention the quran being created or not!! I didn't discuss it!
Second of all, please put your question again that you claim I have circumvented and avoided so that I can answer it. I don't know what you mean. What was the question? Please, hold your horses.
Third, my friends don't even know about this website, so why should I bring that up with them? -
I have to agree that Hadith cannot abrogate the Quran.But why a Quranist abrogates the order of the Quranic Ayaat e.g.
Do you blieve in "Itaa3t ur Rasool " mentioned in this aya;459
So you do not believe in abrogation of Quranic Aya, then why to reject "itaa3t ur Rasool"??? or double standards as usual.Obey/follow messenger according to Qur?an; e.g. be nice to parents, don?t frown at the blind, etc?
AAabasa watawalla
801 Frowned and turned away.
Nun, the "make" in make easy for Yassarna does not have to mean the make of create. You can make your speech easy or difficult. Your speech is still not a creation because the words are always in you and never leave you. They are merely communicated to others through means of communication. The words themselves are in the speaker or the listener or carried in means of communication. They never stand alone.
hlatif, thank you for the reply; at least we can discuss things sensibly.
Yes, I can accommodate my speech which is a form of creation and this is not about my speech and really don't know how things work with God; it's beyond my scope and will not dwell too much into ambiguities.
Peace
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Like I mentioned in my pre-previous post (pls read it again) I BELIEVE that the quran is from God due to its contents and form. I can't prove it. No-one can. I can just believe. But it's not blind faith becasue someone said that's how it is. For example, I haven't come across anything that point toward that the quran would NOT be from God. Same goes for the preservation of the message.
you want to say that there is
-no proof that Quran is from God
-no Proof that Quran is presereved
Am If right to understand you ? -
you want to say that there is
-no proof that Quran is from God
-no Proof that Quran is presereved
Am If right to understand you ?My brother,
- regarding the preservation of the quran As far as I know, historical records point towards the preservation of the quran, i.e. there are not different versions of the quran in terms of the message contained in the text, only minor differences in terms of spelling etc (as far as I know). Call it whatever you want, proof or not proof. All I'm saying is that there seems to be no reasons thinking the quran is not preserved. That's what I'm saying. Nothing points to the contrary... be that proof or not.
- If there was clear proof of anything pertaining to religion, then wouldn't everyone believe in that thing? I don't know of any proof that would convince everyone that the quran is from God. Most people don't give a damn about proof anyway, they just follow what their parents followed and cling to that no matter what is presented. I believe the quran is from God due to all that is written in it. Like I have already said, I don't know of anything that points toward that the quran is not from God. I'm not in a position of saying whether there are proofs or not. Maybe there are, but I haven't found them?
so to your two questions about proof I can't say yes or no... i don't know. But according to me, everything points toward that the quran is from God and is preserved. Nothing points to the contrary. Do you understand what I mean?
- Why don't you answer some of my questions aswell... I'm answering all your as well as I can. Let's make it reciprocal, give and take.
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"Another sunni mentalist show
The Holy Quran says"
26-10
I agree with you that ayaas are exposing particular mentality and pointing to those people who are (Quran speaks)
332
4733
6412
414
3336
7223
963
You know how clear these verses are.Allah told us 1400 yrs ago.Allaho Akbar
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My brother,
- regarding the preservation of the quran As far as I know, historical records point towards the preservation of the quran, i.e. there are not different versions of the quran in terms of the message contained in the text, only minor differences in terms of spelling etc (as far as I know). Call it whatever you want, proof or not proof. All I'm saying is that there seems to be no reasons thinking the quran is not preserved. That's what I'm saying. Nothing points to the contrary... be that proof or not.
- If there was clear proof of anything pertaining to religion, then wouldn't everyone believe in that thing? I don't know of any proof that would convince everyone that the quran is from God. Most people don't give a damn about proof anyway, they just follow what their parents followed and cling to that no matter what is presented. I believe the quran is from God due to all that is written in it. Like I have already said, I don't know of anything that points toward that the quran is not from God. I'm not in a position of saying whether there are proofs or not. Maybe there are, but I haven't found them?
so to your two questions about proof I can't say yes or no... i don't know. But according to me, everything points toward that the quran is from God and is preserved. Nothing points to the contrary. Do you understand what I mean?
- Why don't you answer some of my questions aswell... I'm answering all your as well as I can. Let's make it reciprocal, give and take.
Dear ;
Let me put it another way.you were born and during your childhood you were introduced with Quran as a devine book.
-Did Quran itself tell you that it is a devine book or
-someone else told you
?? -
LEOXYZ
Dear ;
Let me put it another way.you were born and during your childhood you were introduced with Quran as a devine book.
-Did Quran itself tell you that it is a devine book or
-someone else told you
??I was born - yes
Was I introduced to the quran as a divine book during my childhood? - NO, not at all!
Did the quran tell you its a divine book? - Yes, haven't you read it??
Did someone else tell you? - No-one preached it to me, or wanted me to believe it.So...You don't feel like answering any of my questions? Ok then.... thanks. giveup
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LEOXYZ
I was born - yes
Was I introduced to the quran as a divine book during my childhood? - NO, not at all!
Did the quran tell you its a divine book? - Yes, haven't you read it??
Did someone else tell you? - No-one preached it to me, or wanted me to believe it.So...You don't feel like answering any of my questions? Ok then.... thanks. giveup
You are very lucky that Quran walked to you from shelf and came forward and told you how to read it and what message does it contain ?
All these miracles can happen to a "Quranist" only
& & -
You are very lucky that Quran walked to you from shelf and came forward and told you how to read it and what message does it contain ?
All these miracles can happen to a "Quranist" only
& &That's what you understood from his story? You're one of a kind.
giveup -
Peace Leo
What do you think about the following verse in the debate
on the created and the uncreated Quran.8119 In nahu_ laqaulu rasu_lin karim
The Quran came to us and to the rest of mankind from the Prophet as his speech from his mouth. Since it is human speech is this not created?
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Peace Leo
What do you think about the following verse in the debate
on the created and the uncreated Quran.8119 In nahu_ laqaulu rasu_lin karim
The Quran came to us and to the rest of mankind from the Prophet as his speech from his mouth. Since it is human speech is this not created?
Please put actual Quranic text .Neither translation nor transliteration.
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Salaam all,
Innahu laawlu rasoolun kareem= and he is the saying of a messenger.
What is the saying of the messenger
1- The words that the messenger said himself or herself.2- The words of the sender carried by the messenger because this is the job of the messenger, to carry and explain the message.
So, in other places of the Qur'an, it mentioned that the words of the Qur'an are God's words. Therefore meaning number 1 does not apply to the Qur'an and number 2 does apply.
However, this brings another aspect. If one wants to take the more encompassing meaning in consideration, then the words of the messenger that are his, and not God's, are still very important to listen and understand. This meaning still applies for the Aya does not put limits on the meaning or it's range.
In fact, there is no gain for the people of hadeeth to believe in an uncreated Qur'an. Why? because if the Qur'an was created in Muhammad, then everything Muhammad says will be Qur'an or equal to it or undifferentiated from it, including your much hated hadeeth.
take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
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Salaam all,
Innahu laawlu rasoolun kareem= and he is the saying of a messenger.
What is the saying of the messenger
1- The words that the messenger said himself or herself.2- The words of the sender carried by the messenger because this is the job of the messenger, to carry and explain the message.
So, in other places of the Qur'an, it mentioned that the words of the Qur'an are God's words. Therefore meaning number 1 does not apply to the Qur'an and number 2 does apply.
However, this brings another aspect. If one wants to take the more encompassing meaning in consideration, then the words of the messenger that are his, and not God's, are still very important to listen and understand. This meaning still applies for the Aya does not put limits on the meaning or it's range.
In fact, there is no gain for the people of hadeeth to believe in an uncreated Qur'an. Why? because if the Qur'an was created in Muhammad, then everything Muhammad says will be Qur'an or equal to it or undifferentiated from it, including your much hated hadeeth.
take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
Thank you. You have stated quite succinctly that the role of the messenger is precisely that, to bring a message from another source.
Now, the role of the nabi, that is a different story.
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Salaam all,
Innahu laawlu rasoolun kareem= and he is the saying of a messenger.
What is the saying of the messenger
1- The words that the messenger said himself or herself.2- The words of the sender carried by the messenger because this is the job of the messenger, to carry and explain the message.
So, in other places of the Qur'an, it mentioned that the words of the Qur'an are God's words. Therefore meaning number 1 does not apply to the Qur'an and number 2 does apply.
However, this brings another aspect. If one wants to take the more encompassing meaning in consideration, then the words of the messenger that are his, and not God's, are still very important to listen and understand. This meaning still applies for the Aya does not put limits on the meaning or it's range.
In fact, there is no gain for the people of hadeeth to believe in an uncreated Qur'an. Why? because if the Qur'an was created in Muhammad, then everything Muhammad says will be Qur'an or equal to it or undifferentiated from it, including your much hated hadeeth.
take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
Salaam Hussein
I appreciate you for answering my post while not being arrogant like satan who refused to comply since he assumed he was superior. Also for not being a hypocrite using transliteration as and when one wants and rejecting it when the question can not be answered. Thank you for understanding that no one in this forum is posting original quranic text. Hope you understand 100% members in this forum can read and understand the verse numbers and the transliteration whereas only a small percentage understand Arabic text, numbers and meaning and even if I post the Arabic text according to the followers of fabricated holy hadeeth books even their ?holy prophet? could not have read it since he was illiterate.
Like you I do not get a kick accepting or rejecting the uncreated quran .But I am not prepared to blindly accept this because some imam told this and its in such and such a book. I want to verify the truth from the Quran.
While I like your line of argument on this subject will you be able to give me reference/verses from the Qyran for it being ?word of God?.