To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
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Salaam all,
Samia,
Unless you mean that what God said to Moses is in the qur'aan, therefore God spoke the quraan to Moses, but I do not see that this is a valid argument. Is this what you mean? Can you put it in such a way that it becomes a valid argument?
I used Kalam for the statement in 96 and not the kallama Allahu Musa Taklima which translates "and God spoke words to Moses indeed". I also explained to Warner that Lisan Al Arab limits the meaning of kalam and kallama to spoken words/statements.
This is in response to Warner who wanted evidence for my previous statement in which I mentioned that God spoke the Qur'an as he spoke to Moses. In case this statement is misunderstood, I meant "God spoke the Qur'an and God spoke to Moses". Your post seems to agree with what I said since you agree that God spoke to Moses and with my assessment of 96.
OPF, it can be shocking to you, but yes, many here do not hesitate to place the term Kafir on me or others. It has been said before and they do not negate that assertion. Their response to me in the past was "It is ok to call someone kafir since we do not kill". I will not mention names.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
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Salaam Warner,
KLM is spoken words, whether by humans or by God or others. Here are some examples of human speech 346, 11105 and more. Examples of animals speaking in words to humans 2782 Examples of God speech The ones mentioned earlier as well as 2174, 2118. All of them are spoken words.
QWL is communication spoken or unspoken in words or otherwise also by God or man or any other entity. Here is an example of unspoken QWL
191 Kaf. Ha. Ya. Ain. Sad.
192 A mention of the mercy of thy Lord unto His servant Zachariah.
193 When he cried unto his Lord a cry in secret,
194 Saying My Lord! Lo! the bones of me wax feeble and my head is shining with grey hair, and I have never been unblest in prayer to Thee, my Lord.
195 Lo! I fear my kinsfolk after me, since my wife is barren. Oh, give me from Thy presence a successor
Khafiyya which was translated by Picktal as secret is closer to hidden.
QALA he said is the word that was translated as Saying. Suggesting that he said something but it could have been spoken or unspoken and probably it was unspoken since it was hidden.
There are other examples like this as well. So, whenever you see KLM, then it is spoken words and when QWL, it could be spoken or unspoken form of communication.
The Qur'an was never pointed to in the Qur'an as QAWL. It was only referred to as Kalam= spoken words.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
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Peace Hussein, Waner, all
The Qur'an was never pointed to in the Qur'an as QAWL. It was only referred to as Kalam= spoken words.
What you are saying is completely false.
- This is indeed a "QAWL"/speech of an honorable messenger.
You are demonstrating that your only motive for making such baseless claims is to support your Abbassid era dogmatic innovation. Your clumsy arguments have nothing to do with what the great reading is actually saying or with rational practical reality.
Peace,
Ayman
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Good point but not quite. The Qur'an never pointed to itself as Qawlu Allah. It did point to itself as Kalam Allah. The rest of my points are correct and you cannot deny them.
In fact Qawlu rasool is really a great insight. It means that the messenger can communicate the Qur'an, which God described in his book as God's spoken words, in spoken words as well as other than spoken words, as in actions.
Take care all.
Hussein
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In fact Qawlu rasool is really a great insight. It means that the messenger can communicate the Qur'an, which God described in his book as God's spoken words, in spoken words as well as other than spoken words, as in actions.
How, using Arabic sign language?
122 We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an, in order that ye may learn wisdom.
4629 Behold, We turned towards thee a company of Jinns (quietly) listening to the Qur'an when they stood in the presence thereof, they said, "Listen in silence!" When the (reading) was finished, they returned to their people, to warn (them of their sins).
5417 And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember then is there any that will receive admonition?
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through practicing the Qur'an as well as reciting it, while people observe him and do like him and then transmit to the people after them.
5417 translation is inaccurate. The Aya says, "yassarn al Qur'an lilthikr=We made the Qur'an easy to mention/remember"
There is no easy to understand in the Aya.
Hussein
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Salaam all,
As for Jack's Ayat, they can easily apply to anyone amongst you. You do have as many beliefs and practices as your numbers. Each one has his own scripture called Qur'an and logic. Although that logic seems to contradict every other logic. interesting.
As for 2946 It says "Fee sudooo alltheena ootoo alilma= In the chests of those who were given knowledge"
Not everyone was given knowledge then, only some and the one who was given most knowledge is the messenger and prophet Muhammad. That is why you obey him.
Hussein
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I find it interesting Traditional Muslims often find it difficult to admit things, which are quite obvious, e.g. prophet Muhammad was a human being, he made minor mistakes etc.
And the often repeated classic they find it difficult to admit when they go on about obey him they really mean obey Bukhari et al.
They should really ask themselves why it is difficult for them to say these things.
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Wakas
I find it interesting Traditional Muslims often find it difficult to admit things, which are quite obvious, e.g. prophet Muhammad was a human being, he made minor mistakes etc.
And the often repeated classic they find it difficult to admit when they go on about obey him they really mean obey Bukhari et al.
They should really ask themselves why it is difficult for them to say these things.
First it is beneath you to label anyone as "Traditional" Muslims or so forth just because they donot agree with what you say
secondly What do you mean by "Traditional" Muslims?Prophet Muhammad or in that case any human commits mistakes and Quran is the proof for that, so no one who reads Quran with understanding can deny it.
Obeying Muhammad means obeying Bukhari is a classic lie.
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Not everyone was given knowledge then, only some and the one who was given most knowledge is the messenger and prophet Muhammad. That is why you obey him.
Z Irrelevant...Fact is, To all those who have "knowledge" the verses are self-evident..ITs only to those who have no "knowledge" that the verses are not self-evident. Those who have no "knowledge" are usually the one who outright reject the verses or as in your case, need supplemetary commentary such as Bukhari to understand the quran, which of course, as we all know, is a dangerous crutch.
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Salaam Hussein,
Salaam Z,
Not everyone who reads a book gains knowledge from it. There are many Ayat in the Qur'an about that actually. You can use any search function in the Qur'an and you will find it.
Hussein
Moot point..fact is, those with "knowledge" are able to understand the verses/signs alone(self-evident). In more words, the self-evident verses themselves become the only evidence those with knowledge need to support the god's system.
Peace -
Then you are accusing God of redundancy. If everything is self evident, then explain this
1- Why do you guys not agree on nearly anything? Since you are all so self righteous and know what the Qur'an means?!
2- Why does God keep on saying, related to the messenger (pbuh)
Lyuallimuhum= to teach them
Lyuallimakumu= to teach you (plural)
Lyubayyina= to make clear
Litukhrijahum= to make them come outIs God redundant? Where is the miracle of the Qur'an if God says it is self evident, but He still sends a messenger to teach it.
Hussein
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- Ummm,
a) because define we. Because you'd be hard pressed to find 5 people here who agree on a topic.
b) This forum is not a cult, but a place where people come to study al-quran
c) How does 72 sects = consensus?!
11118 And had your Lord wished, He could have made all the people one nation, but they still would continue to disagree.
Is God redundant?
5415
"Progressive Muslims"
And We have left it as a sign. Do any of you wish to learn?5417
"Progressive Muslims"
And We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?5422
"Progressive Muslims"
We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?5432
"Progressive Muslims"
We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?5440
"Progressive Muslims"
We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?5451
"Progressive Muslims"
And We have destroyed your counterparts. Do any of you wish to learn? -
Salaam ,
1- You are not a cult but you agree that the Qur'an is easy to learn but you do not agree on anything else. Explain that.
2- 72 sects minus you guys agree on a minimum consensus and on the need to learn from others including the prophet and others more knowledgeable than themselves.
3- All those translations are wrong. You cannot use your Free-minds translation as proof because of obvious manipulations. However, point number one will either prove you wrong or prove God wrong. Choose. I actually addressed this before lilthikr= for the remembrance and mentioning. If it involves learning then it is in that category and not necessarily knowing exactly and fully everything in it. Even if it did, it does not mean that all will have the same degree of knowledge from it and it will still make it important to learn from the more knowledgeable.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
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Salaam haltif, all
I believe that the messenger understood the qur'aan and was commanded to deliver it. Of course he explained it, but not from his own knowledge, because he had none (did not read scriptures before the qur'aan). People asked him in order to understand; he would wait until the answer is revealed to him and then both question and answer are recorded in the qur'aan
I believe that, for example, he read to people about giving charity/zakat, but people asked how much?
I say he was told to "say whatever is beyond your need" (ref. quraan verse 2219)
You say he said 2.5% (ref. hadith)The difference is not in whether the prophet expalined the qur'aan or not, it is from where he got the knowledge to explain the qur'aan.
Now that the prophet is dead, no way we or you can ask any question, nor "obey him", but it is an obedience to instructions that were written down
I say in the qur'aan, wherever he was commanded to "Say"
You no, that's not enough. Some questions were answered by him on his own authority and are recorded in the hadith books, which need other books to explain them better Some hadith are weak but you need to study the science of Men (aka narrators) so that you know which one is weak and which is strong. Also you need to know the occasions of revalations to understand the context of verses. The "naasikh and mansuukh (wrongly meant to be the abrogator and the abrogated" is another indispensible book to show you which verse is no more applicable.
