To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
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Peace Hussein, Waner, all
The Qur'an was never pointed to in the Qur'an as QAWL. It was only referred to as Kalam= spoken words.
What you are saying is completely false.
- This is indeed a "QAWL"/speech of an honorable messenger.
You are demonstrating that your only motive for making such baseless claims is to support your Abbassid era dogmatic innovation. Your clumsy arguments have nothing to do with what the great reading is actually saying or with rational practical reality.
Peace,
Ayman
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Good point but not quite. The Qur'an never pointed to itself as Qawlu Allah. It did point to itself as Kalam Allah. The rest of my points are correct and you cannot deny them.
In fact Qawlu rasool is really a great insight. It means that the messenger can communicate the Qur'an, which God described in his book as God's spoken words, in spoken words as well as other than spoken words, as in actions.
Take care all.
Hussein
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In fact Qawlu rasool is really a great insight. It means that the messenger can communicate the Qur'an, which God described in his book as God's spoken words, in spoken words as well as other than spoken words, as in actions.
How, using Arabic sign language?
122 We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an, in order that ye may learn wisdom.
4629 Behold, We turned towards thee a company of Jinns (quietly) listening to the Qur'an when they stood in the presence thereof, they said, "Listen in silence!" When the (reading) was finished, they returned to their people, to warn (them of their sins).
5417 And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember then is there any that will receive admonition?
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through practicing the Qur'an as well as reciting it, while people observe him and do like him and then transmit to the people after them.
5417 translation is inaccurate. The Aya says, "yassarn al Qur'an lilthikr=We made the Qur'an easy to mention/remember"
There is no easy to understand in the Aya.
Hussein
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Salaam all,
As for Jack's Ayat, they can easily apply to anyone amongst you. You do have as many beliefs and practices as your numbers. Each one has his own scripture called Qur'an and logic. Although that logic seems to contradict every other logic. interesting.
As for 2946 It says "Fee sudooo alltheena ootoo alilma= In the chests of those who were given knowledge"
Not everyone was given knowledge then, only some and the one who was given most knowledge is the messenger and prophet Muhammad. That is why you obey him.
Hussein
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I find it interesting Traditional Muslims often find it difficult to admit things, which are quite obvious, e.g. prophet Muhammad was a human being, he made minor mistakes etc.
And the often repeated classic they find it difficult to admit when they go on about obey him they really mean obey Bukhari et al.
They should really ask themselves why it is difficult for them to say these things.
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Wakas
I find it interesting Traditional Muslims often find it difficult to admit things, which are quite obvious, e.g. prophet Muhammad was a human being, he made minor mistakes etc.
And the often repeated classic they find it difficult to admit when they go on about obey him they really mean obey Bukhari et al.
They should really ask themselves why it is difficult for them to say these things.
First it is beneath you to label anyone as "Traditional" Muslims or so forth just because they donot agree with what you say
secondly What do you mean by "Traditional" Muslims?Prophet Muhammad or in that case any human commits mistakes and Quran is the proof for that, so no one who reads Quran with understanding can deny it.
Obeying Muhammad means obeying Bukhari is a classic lie.
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Not everyone was given knowledge then, only some and the one who was given most knowledge is the messenger and prophet Muhammad. That is why you obey him.
Z Irrelevant...Fact is, To all those who have "knowledge" the verses are self-evident..ITs only to those who have no "knowledge" that the verses are not self-evident. Those who have no "knowledge" are usually the one who outright reject the verses or as in your case, need supplemetary commentary such as Bukhari to understand the quran, which of course, as we all know, is a dangerous crutch.
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Salaam Hussein,
Salaam Z,
Not everyone who reads a book gains knowledge from it. There are many Ayat in the Qur'an about that actually. You can use any search function in the Qur'an and you will find it.
Hussein
Moot point..fact is, those with "knowledge" are able to understand the verses/signs alone(self-evident). In more words, the self-evident verses themselves become the only evidence those with knowledge need to support the god's system.
Peace -
Then you are accusing God of redundancy. If everything is self evident, then explain this
1- Why do you guys not agree on nearly anything? Since you are all so self righteous and know what the Qur'an means?!
2- Why does God keep on saying, related to the messenger (pbuh)
Lyuallimuhum= to teach them
Lyuallimakumu= to teach you (plural)
Lyubayyina= to make clear
Litukhrijahum= to make them come outIs God redundant? Where is the miracle of the Qur'an if God says it is self evident, but He still sends a messenger to teach it.
Hussein
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- Ummm,
a) because define we. Because you'd be hard pressed to find 5 people here who agree on a topic.
b) This forum is not a cult, but a place where people come to study al-quran
c) How does 72 sects = consensus?!
11118 And had your Lord wished, He could have made all the people one nation, but they still would continue to disagree.
Is God redundant?
5415
"Progressive Muslims"
And We have left it as a sign. Do any of you wish to learn?5417
"Progressive Muslims"
And We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?5422
"Progressive Muslims"
We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?5432
"Progressive Muslims"
We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?5440
"Progressive Muslims"
We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?5451
"Progressive Muslims"
And We have destroyed your counterparts. Do any of you wish to learn? -
Salaam ,
1- You are not a cult but you agree that the Qur'an is easy to learn but you do not agree on anything else. Explain that.
2- 72 sects minus you guys agree on a minimum consensus and on the need to learn from others including the prophet and others more knowledgeable than themselves.
3- All those translations are wrong. You cannot use your Free-minds translation as proof because of obvious manipulations. However, point number one will either prove you wrong or prove God wrong. Choose. I actually addressed this before lilthikr= for the remembrance and mentioning. If it involves learning then it is in that category and not necessarily knowing exactly and fully everything in it. Even if it did, it does not mean that all will have the same degree of knowledge from it and it will still make it important to learn from the more knowledgeable.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
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Salaam haltif, all
I believe that the messenger understood the qur'aan and was commanded to deliver it. Of course he explained it, but not from his own knowledge, because he had none (did not read scriptures before the qur'aan). People asked him in order to understand; he would wait until the answer is revealed to him and then both question and answer are recorded in the qur'aan
I believe that, for example, he read to people about giving charity/zakat, but people asked how much?
I say he was told to "say whatever is beyond your need" (ref. quraan verse 2219)
You say he said 2.5% (ref. hadith)The difference is not in whether the prophet expalined the qur'aan or not, it is from where he got the knowledge to explain the qur'aan.
Now that the prophet is dead, no way we or you can ask any question, nor "obey him", but it is an obedience to instructions that were written down
I say in the qur'aan, wherever he was commanded to "Say"
You no, that's not enough. Some questions were answered by him on his own authority and are recorded in the hadith books, which need other books to explain them better Some hadith are weak but you need to study the science of Men (aka narrators) so that you know which one is weak and which is strong. Also you need to know the occasions of revalations to understand the context of verses. The "naasikh and mansuukh (wrongly meant to be the abrogator and the abrogated" is another indispensible book to show you which verse is no more applicable. -
5415
"Progressive Muslims"
And We have left it as a sign. Do any of you wish to learn?5417
"Progressive Muslims"
And We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?5422
"Progressive Muslims"
We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?5432
"Progressive Muslims"
We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?5440
"Progressive Muslims"
We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?5451
"Progressive Muslims"
And We have destroyed your counterparts. Do any of you wish to learn?Would you please define redundancy in Rhetoric ??
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Salaam all, Sister Samia,
Thanks for your response.
I believe that the messenger understood the qur'aan and was commanded to deliver it. Of course he explained it, but not from his own knowledge, because he had none (did not read scriptures before the qur'aan). People asked him in order to understand; he would wait until the answer is revealed to him and then both question and answer are recorded in the qur'aan
I believe that, for example, he read to people about giving charity/zakat, but people asked how much?
I say he was told to "say whatever is beyond your need" (ref. quraan verse 2219)
You say he said 2.5% (ref. hadith)Good example. So, I will go over it in many angles
1- The definition of what is beyond your need is wide and lacks specificity. It includes within it the 2.5% So, the hadeeth and the Aya are not contradicting each other. The 2.5% is within the definition of "beyond your need".2- The 2.5% is not all what a person needs to give. It is the minimum. So, if a person wants to give more, he or she is free to give me. The hadeeth did not say not anymore. This is also consistent with the Aya.
3- When you get an Aya that says whatever is beyond your need, then a person will need some guidelines that may help him or her decide what that means in practical terms. The 2.5% tells them that if you can give up 2.5% without having hardship then that is when you give it the "beyond need". The 2.5% gives a poor person some guideline that will help him or her not overspend while it gives the rich a minimum.
As a conclusion, since the 2.5% falls within the general and wide range of meaning of "beyond need" and since it does not limit to 2.5% only, then there is no way anyone will claim and prove that it did not come from the prophet or that it contradicts the "beyond need".
The difference is not in whether the prophet expalined the qur'aan or not, it is from where he got the knowledge to explain the qur'aan.
That is wrong from several angles
1- When God said to us "obey the messenger" He did not place conditions as the above "obey him only when he is saying from Qur'an". This means that the above is irrelevant.2- You have no proof that all the knowledge that the prophet (PBUH) had is from the Qur'an and only from it. The Qur'an says that the "book" entered his heart and mind. The book is wider and more encompassing.
3- Even if he only had the Qur'an in him. You have no way of measuring the total knowledge in the Qur'an in order for you to be able to correct the mistakes of the prophet or decide whether he said this from the Qur'an or somewhere else. Only God has that knowledge.
Now that the prophet is dead, no way we or you can ask any question, nor "obey him", but it is an obedience to instructions that were written down
I say in the qur'aan, wherever he was commanded to "Say"
You no, that's not enough. Some questions were answered by him on his own authority and are recorded in the hadith books, which need other books to explain them better Some hadith are weak but you need to study the science of Men (aka narrators) so that you know which one is weak and which is strong. Also you need to know the occasions of revalations to understand the context of verses. The "naasikh and mansuukh (wrongly meant to be the abrogator and the abrogated" is another indispensible book to show you which verse is no more applicable.So, why is that difficult for you guys to abide with the rule of Salat, Zakat, Hajj and Sawm?
1- The Qur'an is to be read in Arabic if one wants to truly understand it. If one does not understand Arabic, then he or she will have to depend on trust of someone who will explain it. If one does that with Qur'an, why not with hadeeth?
2- Even if you speak Arabic, then you are not guaranteed understanding it and people are different in their abilities. They still need to trust others to explain it including what was left to us from the prophet or early Muslims.
3- The knowledge of hadeeth is available to all to read whether the books of hadeeth themselves or books of men of hadeeth. They can be bought on CDs and so forth. So, it is not a secret held by a clergy.
4- If one rejects a particular hadeeth because it does not fit his or her particular understanding of the message, then that is fine as long as he or she does not reject all hadeeth or the principle of it. As long as he or she maintains the humility of being mistaken and the openness to change his or her mind. However, rejecting hadeeth as a principle because one cannot authenticate it by himself or because of the presence of other hadeeth that were not authentic is a false premise. Why? because that same person also cannot authenticate the Qur'an that it was complete with no additions nor subtractions. A person who uses such argument will have to accept his or her limitations and his dependance on others telling him things, that is the same with hadeeth.
Take care and thanks for a stimulating response.
Hussein
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2- The 2.5% is not all what a person needs to give. It is the minimum. So, if a person wants to give more, he or she is free to give me. The hadeeth did not say not anymore. This is also consistent with the Aya.
3- When you get an Aya that says whatever is beyond your need, then a person will need some guidelines that may help him or her decide what that means in practical terms. The 2.5% tells them that if you can give up 2.5% without having hardship then that is when you give it the "beyond need". The 2.5% gives a poor person some guideline that will help him or her not overspend while it gives the rich a minimum.
As a conclusion, since the 2.5% falls within the general and wide range of meaning of "beyond need" and since it does not limit to 2.5% only, then there is no way anyone will claim and prove that it did not come from the prophet or that it contradicts the "beyond need".
Hussein, is this 2.5% mandatory as zakaat?And what is jizya according to you? Is there a minimum % requirement?
Peace!
