To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
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In fact Qawlu rasool is really a great insight. It means that the messenger can communicate the Qur'an, which God described in his book as God's spoken words, in spoken words as well as other than spoken words, as in actions.
How, using Arabic sign language?
122 We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an, in order that ye may learn wisdom.
4629 Behold, We turned towards thee a company of Jinns (quietly) listening to the Qur'an when they stood in the presence thereof, they said, "Listen in silence!" When the (reading) was finished, they returned to their people, to warn (them of their sins).
5417 And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember then is there any that will receive admonition?
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through practicing the Qur'an as well as reciting it, while people observe him and do like him and then transmit to the people after them.
5417 translation is inaccurate. The Aya says, "yassarn al Qur'an lilthikr=We made the Qur'an easy to mention/remember"
There is no easy to understand in the Aya.
Hussein
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Salaam all,
As for Jack's Ayat, they can easily apply to anyone amongst you. You do have as many beliefs and practices as your numbers. Each one has his own scripture called Qur'an and logic. Although that logic seems to contradict every other logic. interesting.
As for 2946 It says "Fee sudooo alltheena ootoo alilma= In the chests of those who were given knowledge"
Not everyone was given knowledge then, only some and the one who was given most knowledge is the messenger and prophet Muhammad. That is why you obey him.
Hussein
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I find it interesting Traditional Muslims often find it difficult to admit things, which are quite obvious, e.g. prophet Muhammad was a human being, he made minor mistakes etc.
And the often repeated classic they find it difficult to admit when they go on about obey him they really mean obey Bukhari et al.
They should really ask themselves why it is difficult for them to say these things.
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Wakas
I find it interesting Traditional Muslims often find it difficult to admit things, which are quite obvious, e.g. prophet Muhammad was a human being, he made minor mistakes etc.
And the often repeated classic they find it difficult to admit when they go on about obey him they really mean obey Bukhari et al.
They should really ask themselves why it is difficult for them to say these things.
First it is beneath you to label anyone as "Traditional" Muslims or so forth just because they donot agree with what you say
secondly What do you mean by "Traditional" Muslims?Prophet Muhammad or in that case any human commits mistakes and Quran is the proof for that, so no one who reads Quran with understanding can deny it.
Obeying Muhammad means obeying Bukhari is a classic lie.
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Not everyone was given knowledge then, only some and the one who was given most knowledge is the messenger and prophet Muhammad. That is why you obey him.
Z Irrelevant...Fact is, To all those who have "knowledge" the verses are self-evident..ITs only to those who have no "knowledge" that the verses are not self-evident. Those who have no "knowledge" are usually the one who outright reject the verses or as in your case, need supplemetary commentary such as Bukhari to understand the quran, which of course, as we all know, is a dangerous crutch.
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Salaam Hussein,
Salaam Z,
Not everyone who reads a book gains knowledge from it. There are many Ayat in the Qur'an about that actually. You can use any search function in the Qur'an and you will find it.
Hussein
Moot point..fact is, those with "knowledge" are able to understand the verses/signs alone(self-evident). In more words, the self-evident verses themselves become the only evidence those with knowledge need to support the god's system.
Peace -
Then you are accusing God of redundancy. If everything is self evident, then explain this
1- Why do you guys not agree on nearly anything? Since you are all so self righteous and know what the Qur'an means?!
2- Why does God keep on saying, related to the messenger (pbuh)
Lyuallimuhum= to teach them
Lyuallimakumu= to teach you (plural)
Lyubayyina= to make clear
Litukhrijahum= to make them come outIs God redundant? Where is the miracle of the Qur'an if God says it is self evident, but He still sends a messenger to teach it.
Hussein
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- Ummm,
a) because define we. Because you'd be hard pressed to find 5 people here who agree on a topic.
b) This forum is not a cult, but a place where people come to study al-quran
c) How does 72 sects = consensus?!
11118 And had your Lord wished, He could have made all the people one nation, but they still would continue to disagree.
Is God redundant?
5415
"Progressive Muslims"
And We have left it as a sign. Do any of you wish to learn?5417
"Progressive Muslims"
And We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?5422
"Progressive Muslims"
We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?5432
"Progressive Muslims"
We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?5440
"Progressive Muslims"
We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?5451
"Progressive Muslims"
And We have destroyed your counterparts. Do any of you wish to learn? -
Salaam ,
1- You are not a cult but you agree that the Qur'an is easy to learn but you do not agree on anything else. Explain that.
2- 72 sects minus you guys agree on a minimum consensus and on the need to learn from others including the prophet and others more knowledgeable than themselves.
3- All those translations are wrong. You cannot use your Free-minds translation as proof because of obvious manipulations. However, point number one will either prove you wrong or prove God wrong. Choose. I actually addressed this before lilthikr= for the remembrance and mentioning. If it involves learning then it is in that category and not necessarily knowing exactly and fully everything in it. Even if it did, it does not mean that all will have the same degree of knowledge from it and it will still make it important to learn from the more knowledgeable.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
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Salaam haltif, all
I believe that the messenger understood the qur'aan and was commanded to deliver it. Of course he explained it, but not from his own knowledge, because he had none (did not read scriptures before the qur'aan). People asked him in order to understand; he would wait until the answer is revealed to him and then both question and answer are recorded in the qur'aan
I believe that, for example, he read to people about giving charity/zakat, but people asked how much?
I say he was told to "say whatever is beyond your need" (ref. quraan verse 2219)
You say he said 2.5% (ref. hadith)The difference is not in whether the prophet expalined the qur'aan or not, it is from where he got the knowledge to explain the qur'aan.
Now that the prophet is dead, no way we or you can ask any question, nor "obey him", but it is an obedience to instructions that were written down
I say in the qur'aan, wherever he was commanded to "Say"
You no, that's not enough. Some questions were answered by him on his own authority and are recorded in the hadith books, which need other books to explain them better Some hadith are weak but you need to study the science of Men (aka narrators) so that you know which one is weak and which is strong. Also you need to know the occasions of revalations to understand the context of verses. The "naasikh and mansuukh (wrongly meant to be the abrogator and the abrogated" is another indispensible book to show you which verse is no more applicable. -
5415
"Progressive Muslims"
And We have left it as a sign. Do any of you wish to learn?5417
"Progressive Muslims"
And We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?5422
"Progressive Muslims"
We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?5432
"Progressive Muslims"
We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?5440
"Progressive Muslims"
We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?5451
"Progressive Muslims"
And We have destroyed your counterparts. Do any of you wish to learn?Would you please define redundancy in Rhetoric ??
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Salaam all, Sister Samia,
Thanks for your response.
I believe that the messenger understood the qur'aan and was commanded to deliver it. Of course he explained it, but not from his own knowledge, because he had none (did not read scriptures before the qur'aan). People asked him in order to understand; he would wait until the answer is revealed to him and then both question and answer are recorded in the qur'aan
I believe that, for example, he read to people about giving charity/zakat, but people asked how much?
I say he was told to "say whatever is beyond your need" (ref. quraan verse 2219)
You say he said 2.5% (ref. hadith)Good example. So, I will go over it in many angles
1- The definition of what is beyond your need is wide and lacks specificity. It includes within it the 2.5% So, the hadeeth and the Aya are not contradicting each other. The 2.5% is within the definition of "beyond your need".2- The 2.5% is not all what a person needs to give. It is the minimum. So, if a person wants to give more, he or she is free to give me. The hadeeth did not say not anymore. This is also consistent with the Aya.
3- When you get an Aya that says whatever is beyond your need, then a person will need some guidelines that may help him or her decide what that means in practical terms. The 2.5% tells them that if you can give up 2.5% without having hardship then that is when you give it the "beyond need". The 2.5% gives a poor person some guideline that will help him or her not overspend while it gives the rich a minimum.
As a conclusion, since the 2.5% falls within the general and wide range of meaning of "beyond need" and since it does not limit to 2.5% only, then there is no way anyone will claim and prove that it did not come from the prophet or that it contradicts the "beyond need".
The difference is not in whether the prophet expalined the qur'aan or not, it is from where he got the knowledge to explain the qur'aan.
That is wrong from several angles
1- When God said to us "obey the messenger" He did not place conditions as the above "obey him only when he is saying from Qur'an". This means that the above is irrelevant.2- You have no proof that all the knowledge that the prophet (PBUH) had is from the Qur'an and only from it. The Qur'an says that the "book" entered his heart and mind. The book is wider and more encompassing.
3- Even if he only had the Qur'an in him. You have no way of measuring the total knowledge in the Qur'an in order for you to be able to correct the mistakes of the prophet or decide whether he said this from the Qur'an or somewhere else. Only God has that knowledge.
Now that the prophet is dead, no way we or you can ask any question, nor "obey him", but it is an obedience to instructions that were written down
I say in the qur'aan, wherever he was commanded to "Say"
You no, that's not enough. Some questions were answered by him on his own authority and are recorded in the hadith books, which need other books to explain them better Some hadith are weak but you need to study the science of Men (aka narrators) so that you know which one is weak and which is strong. Also you need to know the occasions of revalations to understand the context of verses. The "naasikh and mansuukh (wrongly meant to be the abrogator and the abrogated" is another indispensible book to show you which verse is no more applicable.So, why is that difficult for you guys to abide with the rule of Salat, Zakat, Hajj and Sawm?
1- The Qur'an is to be read in Arabic if one wants to truly understand it. If one does not understand Arabic, then he or she will have to depend on trust of someone who will explain it. If one does that with Qur'an, why not with hadeeth?
2- Even if you speak Arabic, then you are not guaranteed understanding it and people are different in their abilities. They still need to trust others to explain it including what was left to us from the prophet or early Muslims.
3- The knowledge of hadeeth is available to all to read whether the books of hadeeth themselves or books of men of hadeeth. They can be bought on CDs and so forth. So, it is not a secret held by a clergy.
4- If one rejects a particular hadeeth because it does not fit his or her particular understanding of the message, then that is fine as long as he or she does not reject all hadeeth or the principle of it. As long as he or she maintains the humility of being mistaken and the openness to change his or her mind. However, rejecting hadeeth as a principle because one cannot authenticate it by himself or because of the presence of other hadeeth that were not authentic is a false premise. Why? because that same person also cannot authenticate the Qur'an that it was complete with no additions nor subtractions. A person who uses such argument will have to accept his or her limitations and his dependance on others telling him things, that is the same with hadeeth.
Take care and thanks for a stimulating response.
Hussein
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2- The 2.5% is not all what a person needs to give. It is the minimum. So, if a person wants to give more, he or she is free to give me. The hadeeth did not say not anymore. This is also consistent with the Aya.
3- When you get an Aya that says whatever is beyond your need, then a person will need some guidelines that may help him or her decide what that means in practical terms. The 2.5% tells them that if you can give up 2.5% without having hardship then that is when you give it the "beyond need". The 2.5% gives a poor person some guideline that will help him or her not overspend while it gives the rich a minimum.
As a conclusion, since the 2.5% falls within the general and wide range of meaning of "beyond need" and since it does not limit to 2.5% only, then there is no way anyone will claim and prove that it did not come from the prophet or that it contradicts the "beyond need".
Hussein, is this 2.5% mandatory as zakaat?And what is jizya according to you? Is there a minimum % requirement?
Peace!
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Salaam haltif
Thank you for the reply. I appreciate the high spirit with which you respond.
So, why is that difficult for you guys to abide with the rule of Salat, Zakat, Hajj and Sawm?
What again are the rules of zakat? Are you contradicting yourself in the same post or you mean some "rules" other than the 2.5%?
Couldn't God say "2.5%" instead of "what beyond your needs"? Why would a billionnaire pay 2.5% and keep billions/millions that are definitely beyond their need? Bill Gates donates 60% of his fortune, and still have billions left. I do not see any muslim millionnaire/billionnaire donate near that amount. They are satisfied with abiding with the "rules" of zakat.
You have no proof that all the knowledge that the prophet (PBUH) had is from the Qur'an and only from it.
The quraan says he did not read past scriptures, he was a gentile. He was only surrounded by paganism. Where did he have any knowledge, and from where? Where would he know what is in the quraan before the qur'aan was revealed? Is this the justification for the huge amount of israelites in the hadith literature? Is that the knowledge he had?
1- When God said to us "obey the messenger" He did not place conditions as the above "obey him only when he is saying from Qur'an". This means that the above is irrelevant.
if it were "obey the prophet" or "obey Muhammad" then your understanding might have some relevance. The obedience in as-much-as the message he is carrying/delivering.
God ordered him to debate "with the qur'aan". Do you read in this command "at least with qur'aan"?
3- Even if he only had the Qur'an in him. You have no way of measuring the total knowledge in the Qur'an in order for you to be able to correct the mistakes of the prophet or decide whether he said this from the Qur'an or somewhere else. Only God has that knowledge
First of all I am not, and would never be, in a contest with the prophet or claim he made mistakes that I can correct . But I can surely know what is claimed to have been said by him I contest bukhari et al, and anybody with the minimum rationality can. If God says he was a kind and merciful person, I will know that whatever was said about him killing apostates and adultrers is a big lie. If the quraan says he is of the highest manners, I will not believe he married a child of 9 yeas of age when he was over 40, a widower with children older than her. This would only be done by a lustful, uncaring father. If we know he is honest, he is at least honest with the message He will not utter hadith to abrogate any part of it.
Apart form his manners, I understand the attributes of God and His system. Anything contradicting this cannot come from the prophet.
1- The Qur'an is to be read in Arabic if one wants to truly understand it. If one does not understand Arabic, then he or she will have to depend on trust of someone who will explain it. If one does that with Qur'an, why not with hadeeth?
I beg your pardon? I understand Arabic, but I am told that in order to understand hadith I have to be learned in "3ilmur-rijaal science of Men (!)", "aljar7 walta3seel wounding and amending"; "asbab an-nuzuul Reasons of revalation (!)", "the abrogator and the abrogated"..etc....All this in an old, and rough language that even a dictionary wont help with understanding it.
Everytime we come with a hadith, you either add extras to it to make it more acceptable (e,g suckling the adult), or you say the hadith is weak (women created from a crooked rib) and the narrator is not known, As if the others figure in "Who is who".
Why? because that same person also cannot authenticate the Qur'an that it was complete with no additions nor subtractions.
In fact, believing and accepting hadith will end up not being able to believe that the quraan is complete. This is one of the major reasons of rejecting hadith, and an important refernce for orientalists who write books and articles proving that the quraan is not the word of God, because of such silly hadiths like these
"Chapter 9 was 200 verses or so during the life of the prophet" narrated by 3aaisha
"I had two verses but the goat ate them"!
Why do we laugh at the child's excuse "the dog ate up my hmework"?!!However, rejecting hadeeth as a principle because one cannot authenticate it by himself or because of the presence of other hadeeth that were not authentic is a false premise.
Not at all. I would not continue reading a book full of many typos, spelling mistakes, weak grammar Many means one of these mistakes per page or more. Let alone facts and logic. This is also the criteria God set for the quraan, why not for hadith?
Have a nice day
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through practicing the Qur'an as well as reciting it, while people observe him and do like him and then transmit to the people after them.
What do mean ?observe him and do like him? ? eat, sleep, walk, shave, etc.?
3321 Ye have indeed IN THE MESSENGER of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
The above addresses ALL believers including women to follow a pattern of principle detailed in Qur?an and not about growing a fist length beard or wear the same sandals.
http//qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=1740&CATE=108
About the Prophet's sandals (Allah bless him & give him peace)
Answered by Shaykh Faraz Rabbani, SunniPath Academy TeacherIs it permissible for a Muslim, with the intention to emulate the Prophet (saw) to get sandals made on this design, just as many Muslims emulate him in dress?http//www.shukronline.com/the-prophets-sandal.html(In Pakistan, they can make sandals very cheap on any design and if permissible, I am planning on getting a pair made for myself and one pair as a gift for someone)
Walaikum assalam,
It is not only permitted, but a means for great reward to follow the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) in his worldly habits.
An excellent discussion of these may be found in Book XX of Imam Ghazali?s Ihya, whose translation is available in the Books section of the www.sunnipath.com library.
Peace
