To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
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It's so difficult to admit that your statement has no basis whatsoever?
Naturally who do not understand Quran ,how can they grasp this simple concept
Quran is the "Guidance" for Muttaqin.
22Those who do not want to get guidance ,Quran clearly indicates
26
(26) As for those who have rejected *9 (these things), it is all the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them they are not going to believe.
.27
(27) Allah has sealed up their hearts and ears and a covering has fallen over their eyes, *10 and they have incurred the severest punishment.So no surprise for me.
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The Prophet was infact FORBIDDEN from explaining the Quran
Do not move your tongue to hasten it.
...
Then it is We who will explain it.JK- Yes the Prophet was only an authority from GOD in regards to His Message i.e. the Quran and nothing else as is evident from 3337 as well. GOD Bless!
JK, why is the "We" capitalized in 7519? It was no other than Muhammad himself who said it. I see no logic of an "almighty god" to choose one person just to deliver 'His' message, threatening others not to move their tongues and championing that 'He' (which becomes We) will explain it to the entire world. This "god" displays weakness indeed. -
Peace Zein, Leo,
Zein, You're welcome.
Leo, you stated
I believe any thought which is against the Quranic teaching is "Kufar".
Thanks for your definition.
However, according to the qur'an, a "kafir" is one who REJECTS the truth.
219 like a cloud from the sky, in it is darkness and thunder and lightning. They place their fingers in their ears from the lightning strikes out of fear of death; and God is aware of the rejecters.
223-24 And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter like this, and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are truthful. And if you cannot do this; and you will not be able to do this; then beware the Fire whose fuel is people and stones, it has been prepared for the rejecters.
399-100 Say "O people of the Scripture, why do you repel from the path of God those who believe? You wish to twist it while you were witness. And God is not unaware of what you do." O you who believe, if you obey a group of those who received the Scripture they will turn you after your belief into rejecters!
In short, kafiroon are deceitful, lying, people who see the truth yet choose to still reject it. They are not people who disagree with your interpretations. Unless you know a person's true intentions, or unless they've admittedly rejected the truth, then you have no business calling anyone a kafir.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace "genteel",
JK, why is the "We" capitalized in 7519? It was no other than Muhammad himself who said it. I see no logic of an "almighty god" to choose one person just to deliver 'His' message, threatening others not to move their tongues and championing that 'He' (which becomes We) will explain it to the entire world. This "god" displays weakness indeed.
JK- Yes your right there the "we" does not refer only to GOD but GOD and His messengerS. This means the Quran would be explained again and again by inspired people for every day and age. This is a better explanation indeed. Also the "we" clould refer to GOD and His forces of nature(malaaika) which help explain the Quran. GOD Bless!
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Peace Zein, Leo,
In short, kafiroon are deceitful, lying, people who see the truth yet choose to still reject it. They are not people who disagree with your interpretations. Unless you know a person's true intentions, or unless they've admittedly rejected the truth, then you have no business calling anyone a kafir.
Peace,
TayDear
I 100% agree that agreeing/disagreeing with my interpretation means nothing at all.
I have talked about Quranic teachings.This is the reason you can interpret anyway you like.
You may think that
-revelation is possible
-Prophets can still come
it will be your interpretation and who can stop you. ,I never enforce anyone to accept my point of view.
On this forum People have been mocking the Holy Prophet PBUH ,proving "Face/Foot" of God ,Tampering the Quran.Could anybody stop them ?? No rather all moderators have been providing tacit support.
My Point of view is very clear
Anyone who does not accept the Quranic teaching as final authority is "Kaafir" (noteI am not talking about my interpretations)
Do you agree with it?? -
Peace Leo,
Anyone who does not accept the Quranic teaching as final authority is "Kaafir" (noteI am not talking about my interpretations)
Do you agree with it??No, and neither does the qur'an.
There is a difference between "Not Accepting" and "Rejecting" in the context of the quran. 569 tells us that the jews and christians and the sabeans who believe in God, the last day, and do good woroks have nothing to fear - nor will grief ever touch them. None of those groups accept the qur'an. Yet God does not call them kafiroon. Further yet, throughout the qur'an, it's clear that rejecters are hell-bound. You can't have it both ways. A rejecter (kafir) is one who knows the truth yet turns away. That's it.Peace,
Tay -
JK- Yes your right there the "we" does not refer only to GOD but GOD and His messengerS. This means the Quran would be explained again and again by inspired people for every day and age. This is a better explanation indeed. Also the "we" clould refer to GOD and His forces of nature(malaaika) which help explain the Quran. GOD Bless!
Hmmm, I see, JK. So then the "We" refering to God and His messenger (according to you) becomes a better explanation when they both band together from hastening to move the tongues of all others and that they both (God and messenger) will EXPLAIN them later what it is all about. But then this very God also warns the messenger from explaining anything and only to DELIVER, as per some believers though most disagree. Perhaps, in your better explanation, this God seems even weaker than I originally thought.Peace!
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Peace Leo,
No, and neither does the qur'an.
There is a difference between "Not Accepting" and "Rejecting" in the context of the quran. 569 tells us that the jews and christians and the sabeans who believe in God, the last day, and do good woroks have nothing to fear - nor will grief ever touch them. None of those groups accept the qur'an. Yet God does not call them kafiroon. Further yet, throughout the qur'an, it's clear that rejecters are hell-bound. You can't have it both ways. A rejecter (kafir) is one who knows the truth yet turns away. That's it.Peace,
TayAs far as I know Quran has talked about three Groups
1Muslims
2Kaafirs
3MunafiqineIn which group you are going to put Jews ?
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Naturally who do not understand Quran ,how can they grasp this simple concept
Quran is the "Guidance" for Muttaqin.
22Those who do not want to get guidance ,Quran clearly indicates
26
(26) As for those who have rejected *9 (these things), it is all the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them they are not going to believe.
.27
(27) Allah has sealed up their hearts and ears and a covering has fallen over their eyes, *10 and they have incurred the severest punishment.So no surprise for me.
Peace dear brother Leoxyz, please excuse me - I have NO offence to you. I really respect your efforts and care for us, like many friends. relatives and people who love & care for us.
Those verses will be no surprise to the people here too, it depends on who do you interpret as "Muttaqin", "those", "their".
The people here also want to warn you that
(You can see the references all over this site and forum.)
Messenger's duty is only to deliver the message, the Quran is complete fully-detailed, what the Quran says about the "hadith", the messenger and the prophet is not the same (otherwise 661 would conflict with 6940-46, why didn't God cut his "life-line", then?), etc.Are we going to say these verses are not true or half truth?
You may want to post other verses then to conflict with the verses that relate to these issues, so the Quran HAS many contradictions?
From my observation, many hadith-defenders come here to prove
- The Quran is NOT complete/enough/fully-detailed. (Contradicts to verses in the "(1)" part of http//www.free-minds.org/women/scarf.htm)
- The Messenger's duty is NOT only to clearly deliver the message. (Contradicts with 592 ,681-82, 2918, 6412, 2454)
- You MUST believe/use other hadith than the Quran. (Contradicts with 7750, 7185, 316, 456, 3923, 5234, 6844)
- You can't find "this and that" in the Quran, but you can find it in the Hadith books. (Yes, 6837-39)
"Do they not consider the Koran with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-)." Koran 482 (http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/koran.htm)
The current traditional understandings of "islam" is so contradicting that you see many anti-islam sites making long lists of Quranic contradictions. For example, http//www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/
After sincere research, and verification, many here see that this Message (Quran) is from God but the contradictions are rather from the humans' understanding of it.
Yes, surely people here also don't agree on all things the same way, we're humans also, but it is much less than adding a huge list of contradictions from the traditional uderstandings and hadith books. By the way, there are many people who clearly understand the answers to favorite questions like salat,qibla,hajj,zakat, etc. in a no-contradiction "Quran is complete, fully detailed" way.
Let's ask God to guide & do out best.
Please consider the "warning" from us here too, we care for you, otherwise many here wouldn't have spent their time, money and effort to start a site and put so much content in it. Thanks also for your compassion, care, time & effort. I'm not posting here to debate you. I'm just posting to give my compassion and care also. Thanks.
God please guide & fogive all of us. We're trying our best to please/praise you - our Lord.
May God Guide.
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Salaam Zidane,
Messenger's duty is only to deliver the message, the Quran is complete fully-detailed, what the Quran says about the "hadith", the messenger and the prophet is not the same (otherwise 661 would conflict with 6940-46, why didn't God cut his "life-line", then?),
God did not cut his lifeline because the prophet did not lie upon God. Not because the prophet did not say anything outside Qur'an or act anything outside Qur'an as in pray in public and do Sawm and Zakat. All fall in the definition of hadeeth. If you believe that the prophet was mum unless he received Qur'an, then you must believe in an unbelievable thing.
Salaam and have a good evening.
Hussein
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Salaam Zidane,
God did not cut his lifeline because the prophet did not lie upon God. Not because the prophet did not say anything outside Qur'an or act anything outside Qur'an as in pray in public and do Sawm and Zakat. All fall in the definition of hadeeth. If you believe that the prophet was mum unless he received Qur'an, then you must believe in an unbelievable thing.
Salaam and have a good evening.
Hussein
Dear Brother Hussein, you probably missed my point.
That part of my post was to say that the Messenger and prophet is not the same "state" of Muhammad, that's why God didn't cut his life-line.
That's why, if the prophet and the messenger was the same then, as you said, he can't speak unless he receives the quran. That's believing in an unbelievable thing.
The Messenger is when he's delivering the Message, that's why God said "O you prophet" (yes, you can check the arabic) here in 661, not "O you Messenger". This clearly distinguishes the difference between prophet and messenger. This comes into harmony why God repeated many times to Obey God and Obey the Messenger Obeying God and obeying the Messenger is the same thing . We can only know what God says from the Messenger and the Messenger can only speak what God says (, ).
These issues are already covered many times in the many resources & articles of this site. Please read them, it's tiring for people to come and post replies to the same issues again and again. Please help take some effort in reading them brother.
And, Yes, as Joe posted above, that's very clear to "sincerely" see. We can't just twist things biasdly to support the use of hadeeth. You're again implying to the reader that the Quran is NOT complete, NOT fully detailed and we must use other hadeeth than the Quran (see 7185).
Have a nice evening too.
May God Guide.
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Peace dear brother Leoxyz, please excuse me - I have NO offence to you. I really respect your efforts and care for us, like many friends. relatives and people who love & care for us.
Those verses will be no surprise to the people here too, it depends on who do you interpret as "Muttaqin", "those", "their".
The people here also want to warn you that
(You can see the references all over this site and forum.)
Messenger's duty is only to deliver the message, the Quran is complete fully-detailed, what the Quran says about the "hadith", the messenger and the prophet is not the same (otherwise 661 would conflict with 6940-46, why didn't God cut his "life-line", then?), etc.Are we going to say these verses are not true or half truth?
You may want to post other verses then to conflict with the verses that relate to these issues, so the Quran HAS many contradictions?
From my observation, many hadith-defenders come here to prove
- The Quran is NOT complete/enough/fully-detailed. (Contradicts to verses in the "(1)" part of http//www.free-minds.org/women/scarf.htm)
- The Messenger's duty is NOT only to clearly deliver the message. (Contradicts with 592 ,681-82, 2918, 6412, 2454)
- You MUST believe/use other hadith than the Quran. (Contradicts with 7750, 7185, 316, 456, 3923, 5234, 6844)
- You can't find "this and that" in the Quran, but you can find it in the Hadith books. (Yes, 6837-39)
"Do they not consider the Koran with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-)." Koran 482 (http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/koran.htm)
The current traditional understandings of "islam" is so contradicting that you see many anti-islam sites making long lists of Quranic contradictions. For example, http//www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/
After sincere research, and verification, many here see that this Message (Quran) is from God but the contradictions are rather from the humans' understanding of it.
Yes, surely people here also don't agree on all things the same way, we're humans also, but it is much less than adding a huge list of contradictions from the traditional uderstandings and hadith books. By the way, there are many people who clearly understand the answers to favorite questions like salat,qibla,hajj,zakat, etc. in a no-contradiction "Quran is complete, fully detailed" way.
Let's ask God to guide & do out best.
Please consider the "warning" from us here too, we care for you, otherwise many here wouldn't have spent their time, money and effort to start a site and put so much content in it. Thanks also for your compassion, care, time & effort. I'm not posting here to debate you. I'm just posting to give my compassion and care also. Thanks.
God please guide & fogive all of us. We're trying our best to please/praise you - our Lord.
May God Guide.
Dear
I have shown my opinion and still hold that anyone who denies ,rejects a single word or teaching of the Holy Quran is not a muslim.He is a KAAFIR.
As far as interpretaion is concerned the Holy Quran is MUFASSIL and COMPLETE and well EXPLAINED,so NO INTERPRETATION is needed.(AS PER QURANIST CLAIM)
I am a simple muslim with a limited knowledge.You can think it your way.
People are at liberty to
-Tamper Quran
-Tamper the teachings of Holy Prophet PUBH
-Make prophets(Kazzaab) after the Holy Prophet (PBUH)
The Holy Quran says(2256) There is no compulsion and coercion in regard to religion. The right thing has been made distinct from the wrong thing
Everything is crystle clear.
None of us is going to be held responsible for others' deeds.Neither you for my actions ,nor I for your actions.
Have I compelled anyone to follow my ways? Never -
Peace Hussein,
In verse 661, the prophet ignorantly prohibited something that the god had already made lawful (via the messenger). If the role of prophet is the same as the role of messenger as you contend, then we are left with Muhammad (messenger/prophet) contradicting "God's revelations" and attributting something falsely to the god and his revelations(prohibiting something that the god had made lawful), which inturn, leaves us with the god contradicting His quran, particularly verses 6940-46.
Of course, this problem is easily resolved when one comes to understand that the Messenger delivers the god's message, and the prophet is the god's appointed leader upholding the god's revelations to the best of his human ability.
Or in other words, the prophet obeys the god and obeys the messenger (message), as stated in verse 469.
Hussein, what lesson can we learn if someone directly saw or heard the prophet prohibit the cancellation of oaths and passed this "hadith" down to their family, who inturn passed it down to their family etc...all the while not knowing the prophet had made a mistake?
Peace
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Salaam all,
I am sorry to tell you both that when Muhammad has the designation of prophet and messenger, then he cannot be divided by two and say this time he is this and this time he is that. At all times he is both. If God addressed him as a messenger at some point, that does not mean that he was not a prophet at the same time or that God was not addressing Muhammad the prophet as well as the messenger. The address as messenger or prophet at different times is more for particular emphasis but not to divide him into a split personality as you like to believe.
If you are a father and husband, you are always father and husband. So, God will not say to Muhammad the messenger you cannot lie, but then will allow Muhammad the prophet to do it.
Muhammad, the prophet and man and messenger can make mistakes. He does not make mistakes in the delivery nor the explanation of the message nor in the orders of it, but can make mistakes as human being in a fashion that does not affect his message or the delivery of it or the explanation of it except in a positive fashion. Why? because all of his mistakes in the Qur'an are lessons for us. However, any mistake he made, he remained the most trustworthy as man and messenger and prophet for all of us to follow him. God did not take the messengership or prophethood from him. God asked us to obey the messenger unconditionally knowing that the messenger is Muhammad who is also the prophet and the man.
In addition. You have zero proof that the Qur'an divides clearly muhammad the messenger from the pophet. If you do bring them and do not bring articles because I read them and they are not convincing.
Also 661 does not say how the thing or what the thing that was made unlawful. Tell me what it was and why? and when and how the messenger made it lawful? Also show evidence that the messenger actually made it lawful. What will your sources be? If you have no sources then you have no case.
As far as the Qur'an complete or incomplete. I addressed it in my post about 24 hours ago.
Take care and have a good evening.
Hussein
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Peace Hussein,
In verse 661, the prophet ignorantly prohibited something that the god had already made lawful (via the messenger). If the role of prophet is the same as the role of messenger as you contend, then we are left with Muhammad (messenger/prophet) contradicting "God's revelations" and attributting something falsely to the god and his revelations(prohibiting something that the god had made lawful), which inturn, leaves us with the god contradicting His quran, particularly verses 6940-46.
Dear
It is how you people tamper the meanings of the Holy Quran.You people intentionally do not post Arabic text so that you can put the translation of your interest
The actual aya is661
This aya clearly shows that the Holy Prophet forbade something for HIMSELF because of seeking good will of wives.But Allah immediately warned him not to do it.
A few questions arise automatically
The Holy Prophet did not forbade or made unlawful anything for anyone else but for HIMSELF only
Are human beings not given the discretionary power to eat or restrict themselves from something? Why was the Holy Prophet not allowed to make a personal decision ? The reason is simple ,the Holy Quran tells us3321
Prophets are Examples for the followers.Though it was his personal decision but Allah rectified because all of his followers are supposed to follow him ,so it would have very long lasting effect. -
Peace Hussein,
When thinking of roles to compare with the Messenger and Prophet, try to think of roles more analogous with the Messenger and Prophet.
How about...Mike, the messnger of the King, and Mike a subject/citizen of the king.
Now ask yourself
Is Mike being a subject/citizen of the king, obliged to obey the messages he transmits to the citizens for the king?
Thus does mike the citizen/subject obey the king and the messenger?
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Greetings again brother,
Salaam all,
I am sorry to tell you both that when Muhammad has the designation of prophet and messenger, then he cannot be divided by two and say this time he is this and this time he is that. At all times he is both. If God addressed him as a messenger at some point, that does not mean that he was not a prophet at the same time or that God was not addressing Muhammad the prophet as well as the messenger. The address as messenger or prophet at different times is more for particular emphasis but not to divide him into a split personality as you like to believe.
God divided, not me, different word at different places. There's a reason for having different words different meaning.
If you are a father and husband, you are always father and husband. So, God will not say to Muhammad the messenger you cannot lie, but then will allow Muhammad the prophet to do it.
God didn't allow the prophet to do lie - that's why he warns with this verse. As a man/prophet, he can make mistakes. BUT he didn't do a mistake when speaking the message as a messenger. Otherwise his life-line would be cut.
When he's the messenger he's speaking out the message perfectly - the Quran is the "Qawl Rasool".Muhammad, the prophet and man and messenger can make mistakes. He does not make mistakes in the delivery nor the explanation of the message nor in the orders of it, but can make mistakes as human being in a fashion that does not affect his message or the delivery of it or the explanation of it except in a positive fashion. Why? because all of his mistakes in the Qur'an are lessons for us. However, any mistake he made, he remained the most trustworthy as man and messenger and prophet for all of us to follow him. God did not take the messengership or prophethood from him. God asked us to obey the messenger unconditionally knowing that the messenger is Muhammad who is also the prophet and the man.
No, if the messenger made a mistake, his life-line would be cut.
In addition. You have zero proof that the Qur'an divides clearly muhammad the messenger from the pophet. If you do bring them and do not bring articles because I read them and they are not convincing.
No, not zero proof. Lot's of proof, you can go back and see my previous post on page 3 of this thread again. No offence brother, but I can't guide you, and you can't guide me. I can't convince you, the articles can't either.
Also 661 does not say how the thing or what the thing that was made unlawful. Tell me what it was and why? and when and how the messenger made it lawful? Also show evidence that the messenger actually made it lawful. What will your sources be? If you have no sources then you have no case.
Yes, it doesn't say, for a reason. If it's complete and it doesn't say so the things you want it to say, the what you want to know isn't necessary like the story of the cow in sura 2 - do we need to know what color is the cow, etc?
Doesn't God know what is needed?
Yes, I agree that you can find all these details you wish in other books that you study
(Sorry for reposting, you're re-asking.)6836 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
6837 Or do you have another book which you study?
6838 In it, you can find what you wish?I really apologize if my words offended you or what you think. May God Guide & forgive.
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None of us is going to be held responsible for others' deeds.Neither you for my actions ,nor I for your actions.
Have I compelled anyone to follow my ways? NeverBrother Leoxyz, I totally agree with you on this. I really respect you for this great mentality.
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Note verse 662, the god has already given the Law(589) that the prophet himself prohibited, in other words, there is no reason for you a leader of your people to prohibit something that the god has made lawful..
And moreover, in verse 3321 there is no mention of the "prophet being an example", this has been pointed out to you many times, yet you insist, which can only lead me to conclude one thing, you my "friend" are a dishonest person.