Does Quran prohibit ?
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Salaam Sharp001
The problem is that the verse does not say if they commit an act of fahisha, which is zina, ...
Sister Samia,
I assume that the verse you are referring to above is 242. Does the verse really need to re-iterate that Zina is act of fahisha, when, as you said, verse 1732 already establishes that fact?
The proper example would be
- I am eating an orange therefore I am eating a fruit.
- He is eating a fruit therefore he is eating an orange
Can we deduce that both statements are valid?
The second assertion is obviously wrong. I hope that you are implying that the first one is the correct statement, because if that is the case, then applying the "replacement" that I mentioned in the previous post, would result in the following
Before replacement I am eating an orange therefore I am eating a fruit.
After replacement I am committing Zina therefore I am commiting a fahish act.In summary, Every act of Zina is a fahish act, but every fahish act is not an act of Zina.
... or did I not get your question?
Peace
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Before replacement I am eating an orange therefore I am eating a fruit.
After replacement I am committing Zina therefore I am commiting a fahish act.In summary, Every act of Zina is a fahish act, but every fahish act is not an act of Zina.
... or did I not get your question?
Peace
Your reply is the correct one.
Applying it to your sentences will beBefore replacement I am eating an fruit probably not orange.
After replacement I am committing fahisha probably not zinaWe are in a greement that zina is Fahisha. But fahisha is not necessarily zina.
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Your reply is the correct one.
Applying it to your sentences will beBefore replacement I am eating an fruit probably not orange.
After replacement I am committing fahisha probably not zinaWe are in agreement that zina is Fahisha. But fahisha is not necessarily zina.
Sister Samia,
Thank you for putting my mind somewhat at ease. Now for the punishments, will the same line of reasoning apply for the punishments?
Punishment for Zina 100 lashes
Punishment for Fahisha Life-time confinement.Zina is Fahisha 100 lashes + Life-time confinement
Fahisha, which is not Zina Life-time confinementAre the above assertions correct as well, in light of the previously agreed assertions?
Just a Yes or No will do. If it's a 'No', then we are back to square one, and it will be fruitless (no pun intended) to continue onwards with this discussion, unless you want to shed some light on Hasan's (brook) assertions above.
Peace
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NO. Period. Unless, the "until Allah makes for them a way out" is related to "a mushrik/zani marries a mushrik/zani", and hence they escape by marrying another adulterer (I can see some wisdom in that).
There are two or more possible scenarios as far as I see here.
One - Zina is specific
For instance, I have a cookbook. It says "take any fruit you like, and cook it." However, 5 steps before that, it says "if you are using an orange, slice it into halves and peel it". Does that mean I boil the orange after doing such and such? No.
An orange is a fruit, but nobody cooks it within reason. However, we have cooked apples and bananas.
Two - Zina is a fahish act and takes both punishments
So, we have these adulterers lashed for their crime then imprisoned for life. They either die, or have a way made out for them by God or repent and are released. The way made out would thus be a marriage with a fellow adulterer, even the person they did it with.
In addition, scenario three
415 and 416 refer specifically to homosexuality as indicated by the dual in 416, and life imprisonment but not 100 lashes is incumbent upon them.
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Brother OPF,
Thanks for your input. Strangely, I was a little relieved when you said "No. Period" and effectively shut any further doors for discussion for me. But then you added "unless" and followed that up with 3 possibilities that you see, which means, in your eyes any one of them could be right, but only 1 of them has to be right, unless all of them are wrong.
Possibility 1 I apologize before hand if I am replying out of context to the possiblity that you meant to communicate, but I find it really unfair to compare the Book, which claims to have verses that complement and explain each other, with a cook book, which has different and unrelated recipes for food on each page, sometimes more than one unrelated recipes on the same page. I am sorry but I am unable to relate to this possibility.
Possibility 2 This is the possibility that I am alluding to. So you believe that my understanding might be the right one?
Possibility 3 I have put that question to myself as well as sister Samia, but haven't reached any conclusions about it as yet. Let's see what happens.
Peace
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...so unless we arrive to the understanding of the meaning of verses 415-16, we will not know
the exact "fahisha" other than "zina" which is punishable
what exactly is its the punishment
why there are two different punishments to the same fahisha
or perhaps the fahisha in verse 15 is different from that of verse 16Until then, all we can be satisfied with (its understanding) is the punishment by 100 lashes for zina on both parties evidenced by 4 sound witnesses.
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I believe it deals with homosexuality, as I said earlier, the verses are entirely complementary to each other. Look at 242, where it mentions a man and a woman (2 people) and likewise, in 416, 2 males.
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and what's verse 415 about?
Same.
Take into consideration the biological differences and how they relate
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Sister Samia,
Yup, like I said, back to square one. Br. OPF's understanding of the word, "Al-Fahasha" is the same
Same as what?
Same.
Take into consideration the biological differences and how they relate
You mean about lesbianism? Then why is the punishment different (based on gender), and even more severe for lesbians?
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Same as what?
You mean about lesbianism? Then why is the punishment different (based on gender), and even more severe for lesbians?
Where's the "even more severe punishment"? I only see one punishment in those 2 verses.
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Life imprisonment?
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Life imprisonment?
This one is for women, 15, more like house arrest.
16 speaks of "aathuuhuma punishing/hurting" but nothing specific.
If it was the same punishment, why not just put them in the same verse as that of "zina"?I also wonder if it is the same crime Why does the first verse speak of women in the plural and the second of men in the dual?
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I don't know where you can find it; but here is the meaning
415 and those (feminine plural)
416 and the two (masculine dual)Pardon me, Sister Samia, but what is a "masculine dual"? Because this is the only instance in the book where this word is used. What is the root word for it?
Peace