Does Quran prohibit ?
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and what's verse 415 about?
Same.
Take into consideration the biological differences and how they relate
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Sister Samia,
Yup, like I said, back to square one. Br. OPF's understanding of the word, "Al-Fahasha" is the same
Same as what?
Same.
Take into consideration the biological differences and how they relate
You mean about lesbianism? Then why is the punishment different (based on gender), and even more severe for lesbians?
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Same as what?
You mean about lesbianism? Then why is the punishment different (based on gender), and even more severe for lesbians?
Where's the "even more severe punishment"? I only see one punishment in those 2 verses.
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Life imprisonment?
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Life imprisonment?
This one is for women, 15, more like house arrest.
16 speaks of "aathuuhuma punishing/hurting" but nothing specific.
If it was the same punishment, why not just put them in the same verse as that of "zina"?I also wonder if it is the same crime Why does the first verse speak of women in the plural and the second of men in the dual?
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I don't know where you can find it; but here is the meaning
415 and those (feminine plural)
416 and the two (masculine dual)Pardon me, Sister Samia, but what is a "masculine dual"? Because this is the only instance in the book where this word is used. What is the root word for it?
Peace
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dual = 2
masculine = male
allathaani = 2 allathi 2(he who) = the two who,
You also find it in 4129 in the accusative form (as object) allathayn "...Our Lord! show us those among both jinn and humans who led us astray..."Peace sister Samia,
Thanks for the clarification. One more question though, is allathayn also a masculine form?
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Yes, it is masculine. It is allathaani itself, just grammatical difference, like the difference between al kitaabu and al kitaaba (the book)
Sister Samia,
An honest question, then. If allathayn is masculine but which is meant to address both men and women, then is it possible that "allathaani" ("the two who" could stand to mean a man or a woman? or am I mistaken in someway? I apologize for being a bother.
Peace
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Sister Samia,
An honest question, then. If allathayn is masculine but which is meant to address both men and women, then is it possible that "allathaani" ("the two who" could stand to mean a man or a woman? or am I mistaken in someway? I apologize for being a bother.
Peace
or rather both those of the invisible beings and humans as Muhammad Asad puts it? Please.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Sister Samia,
An honest question, then. If allathayn is masculine but which is meant to address both men and women, then is it possible that "allathaani" ("the two who" could stand to mean a man or a woman? or am I mistaken in someway? I apologize for being a bother.
Peace
An excellent observation and I do not know how it evaded me! Of course, it could, and maybe it is a man and a woman!!
or rather both those of the invisible beings and humans as Muhammad Asad puts it? Please.
Peace,
Hasan AkcayMost probably Asad based his translation on the only other occurence of the word which is in the context of humans and invisible beings. It is a probable understanding, but a man and a woman is more probable, especially that chapter 4 does not mention "the invisibles jinn" in any of its verses.
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An excellent observation and I do not know how it evaded me! Of course, it could, and maybe it is a man and a woman!!
Sister Samia,
Thank you for clarifying your understanding in this regard. So, now we are left with the following questions
(1) What is the "Al-fahasha" that 415 is referring to, in relation to women?
(2) Can we reasonably consider that 416 also refers to the same "Al-fahasha", mentioned in 415, but in relation to a man and woman?
(3) In the Book, how is "Al-fahasha" different from "Fahasha"?With those questions in mind, I had begun with the premise that "Fahasha" pertains only to deeds which fall under the umbrella of sexual misconduct and anything shameful in that regard. So, keeping that in mind, I looked up all occurences of all the words which have the same root as "Fahasha", i.e. (Fa-Ha-Shin). Then, I came along the following verse
651 - "O you prophet, if any of you have divorced the women, then they should be divorced while ensuring that their required interim is fulfilled, and keep count of the interim. You shall reverence God your Lord, and do not evict the women from their homes, nor should they leave, unless they have committed a proven adultery ( - bifahisha). And these are God's limits. And anyone who transgresses God's limits has wronged his soul. You never know; perhaps God will make something come out of this." (Free minds Translation)
I went back to 415
415 - "And the women who commit lewdness ( - alfahisha), you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out."
Now, this seemed strange to me, because, apparently, both are supposed to allude to "fahasha", but the treatment of the subject women is opposite. In 415, a guilty woman (regardless of her marriage status as I saw no specification) is to be restricted to the homes, but 651 gives the permission to let a woman who is guilty of lewdness, leave the home. I apologize if I am misunderstanding this in any way, but as I see it, both "fahasha" cannot be of the same nature, if that is the case. Please feel free to disagree with anything that follows from this point onward. I'm not sure, but I think that the Prefix "Al" before a word in the Book, make that word distinct and unique, among other occurences of that word, pertaining to the same context. So, I assume that "Al-Fahasha" (e.g. in 415) is distinct and unique against other "Fahasha" (e.g. 651) in the same context.
The question now is what is the context in which "Al-Fahasha" is mention in 415? All of the verse of this Chapter, before 415 (except the first one) address orphans and inheritance. In fact, 411 is a direction from God about children's inhertance (that a man leaves for them) & 412 continues along the same theme with what the wives leave. The next two verses are also important because they mention the consequences in the after-life. Two important words come out of them, the roots for which are as follows
(2) (HA-Dal)
(3) (Ayn-Dal-Waw)What I have gathered is the second word, more or less, means "limit" or "boundary" and the third word, in similar fashion, mean "against" or "oppose".
So, we know the "limits" and "boundaries" of God in 413 & 414 from His directions in 411 and 412, and we know the consequences in the afterlife in 413 & 414 for those who go "against" and "oppose" those "limits" and "boundaries".
But what about the worldly consequences of abusing the rights of inheritance? Are there any punishments for such mentioned in the Book? I am not implying that there should be, but there could be, right? Coming back to "Al-Fahash", I think it is too much of a coincidence that the context of the verse may be the "Inheritance" verses before, and its root word also alludes to going beyond the limits. Maybe if we look at the ground realities, it might shed some light on the possible applicability of this verse. At this point in time, I am not too sure about my assertions, but I would very much appreciate some feedback.
Peace
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Two questions
(1)In 416 the word allathaine stands for only males but in 4129 it may refer to a man and a woman as Samia points out in her answer to Sharp001. Is it really the case when the jinne and inse are taken into account in 4129?
Wa qaala?llatheena kafaroo rabbana arenaa?llathaine adallanaa mina al-jinne wa?l-inse najAAal humaa tahta aqdaaminaa liyakoonaa mina al-asfaleenaa
And the unbelievers will say "Our Sustainer! Show us from among both of the invisible beings and humans that have led us astray we shall crush them under our feet, so that they shall be the lowest of all."
(2)When do the wives commit faahisha according to 651, before or after the decision of divorce?
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Salam Hasan,
I think there is a slight misunderstanding. When I asked sister about "aallathani" (written in Arabic as ) in 416, she replied that it is possible that it can mean "the two (a man and a woman) who". In 4129, the word is "allatheena" (written in Arabic as ), which I think addresses the populous, "those who", which would include both men and women.
As for question 2, I'd say, logically, before the divorce is finalised, because there is no sense for the lady to stay at the house or be restricted thereto after the final divorce.
Peace
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Salam Hasan,
I think there is a slight misunderstanding. When I asked sister about "aallathani" (written in Arabic as ) in 416, she replied that it is possible that it can mean "the two (a man and a woman) who". In 4129, the word is "allatheena" (written in Arabic as ), which I think addresses the populous, "those who", which would include both men and women.
As for question 2, I'd say, logically, before the divorce is finalised, because there is no sense for the lady to stay at the house or be restricted thereto after the final divorce.
Peace
Salam Sharp. Please excuse me for insisting but I read the word in 4129 as allathaine rather than allatheena.
As for my other question, I ask it because I am cahecking to learn whether the crime mentioned in 651 is kind of nushuuz mentioned in 434 and 4128. If it is, it is different from the faahisha mentioned in 415 and 416; therefore the punishmet it deserves will naturally be different.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay