Hot/"ramadan" Answer

Samia

Peace,

i want to answer Samia first and say that the fast is daily. The fast is only for 1 day duirng daylight hours (hence you break it the same day), and you fast each day for the whole month. So you are not fasting the month, you are fasting during the daylight hours each day during the whole month. So, Quranically, fasting only relates to one day of fasting, because you break your fast each night and start a new one the next day for a month during Ramadan. Hence if you don't fast, you feed one person for every fast you don't do during that month.

Salaam Anwar
You conjecture about shahr = month; two shahrs = two months
1 month = 30 days

two months = 60 days. You have no proof of any of the above, not even from Classical Arabic dictionaries.
Then you treat the conjecture as fact and force it on the verse of "ramadaan" !
How about this conjecture
shahr full moon
sharain mutataabi3in (two consectutive shahrs) one month
"man shahida minkumul shahra falyasumhu who ever amongst you witnessed the full moon should fast it) = one day
no fasting = feeding one poor
not fasting one months (two consecutive moons/shahrs = 30 days) feed 60 poor because this is a punishment, so it should be tough).
Better than your conjecture, but still a conjecture.

progod

Salaam Anwar
You conjecture about shahr = month; two shahrs = two months
1 month = 30 days

two months = 60 days. You have no proof of any of the above, not even from Classical Arabic dictionaries.
Then you treat the conjecture as fact and force it on the verse of "ramadaan" !
How about this conjecture
shahr full moon
sharain mutataabi3in (two consectutive shahrs) one month
"man shahida minkumul shahra falyasumhu who ever amongst you witnessed the full moon should fast it) = one day
no fasting = feeding one poor
not fasting one months (two consecutive moons/shahrs = 30 days) feed 60 poor because this is a punishment, so it should be tough).
Better than your conjecture, but still a conjecture.

This is not conjecture if we make up for a daily fast by feeding 1 person then making up for two months of fasting by feeding 60 people is making it obvious that 2 months = 60 days. Hence . . .
Shahr can mean full moon, but i don't think it means that in the Quranic contexts of fasting. Fating any month, like I said is fasting each day within it. That is why expiation for fasting is done on a daily basis. I don't expect you to want to understand me, if think about it. Read thos scriptures more carefully and see what is being said. The month here is any month during summer. I would disagree as to whether you conjecture is better than my conclusion. However, I have never known you to be very sensible on any issue when it comes to these kinds of discussions. So believe what you will. May God guide us all. For those who see my point, thank you for studying the issue honestly. This is not an issue of making up things. It is an issue of trying to pull what is most logical out of the Quranic verses and put it into practice. I am not conjecture here I am concluding on facts. Those facts are

To fast, Quranically, for a month is to fast each day during that month. That explains why expiation for missed fasts is dealt with on a day by day basis. Technically you are not fasting all of Ramadan because you are fasting the nights. So whereas you can say you are fasting Ramadan as a generality or a stereotype and not be incorrect, the specifics of the matter is that you are only fasting daily, and specifically during the daylight hours of Ramadan. I don't see what is so hard to understand about that.
This Quranic usage and its equating 2 months of fasting with 60 daily fasts shows very clearly what the Quran thinks of the word shahr (It's a 30 day period).
The word shahr has many different meanings, but the above shows that in the matter of fasting a 30 day period is what is preferred. The Quran's usage of the word shahr seems to be more conducive to a 30 day period than any moon phase. Remember that shahr can mean crescent moon as well. and in that case we can go back to the Islamic method of counting from crescent moon to crescent moon. As I said from the above i think the Quran prefers 30 days for a shahr. That is my conclusion. I think that is pretty simple and don't see how I can be accused of conjecturing here..
I am not an anti-traditionalists nor a pro-traditionalists. But I do beileve in logic, evidence and sound analysis of issues. I don't think it's necessary to go left field with my analysis unless there is no other way to make something in the Quran make sense, and stay consistent. I think the interpreting full moon here creates too many inconsitencies, Quranically and logically. But Ayman, Samia and anyone else are entitled to their opinions I just hope we all try to keep it logical, simple and consistent.

I think I've made my pints clear in this topic, see them if you will or dismiss them if you will. The honesty and integrity of your reasons and intentions that lead you to your conclusions is what God will judge you by.

Godbless,
Anwar

unknownuser

Peace Ayman,

As I said and explained in the article and in the above posts, you have ZERO evidence for the completely arbitrary traditional timing from the great reading. So you are defending something which is indisputably completely arbitrary and entirely based on manmade decisions. Therefore, I would suggest that you study and come up with the correct timing based on the great reading before criticizing from the indefensible traditional position.

Why do assume I'm defending all the traditional timings?

I'm looking into this and yours doesn't make sense either. For example, below you state...

The traditional timing creates a contradiction between 2185 and 971

On the one hand, traditionalists claim that according to 2185 the great reading was descended in a month while 971 clearly says that it was descended in one night. This false understanding creates a contradiction in the great reading.

How is that a contradiction?

Is it a contradiction for me to say that I stayed up all last night in the month of September?

Its clear Quran was sent in a night 971 ?

973 the night Al-Qadr better than a thousand shahr

What contradicts is to compare a ?night? (i.e. time sunset to dawn) better than a thousand full moon snapshots which occur half the time during "the day" as did the full moons after the summer solstice in Makkah, Saudi Arabia for a brief moment the five prior years in a row and will likewise do so in the next three years...

http//www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=151&month=7&year=2009&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1

Moonrise, Moonset and Moonphase for Saudi Arabia ? Makkah ?

Jul 2, 2004 Full at 209 PM

Jun 22, 2005 Full at 714 AM

Jul 11, 2006 Full at 602 AM

Jun 30, 2007 Full at 449 PM

Jul 18, 2008 Full at 1059 AM

Jul 7, 2009 Full at 1222 PM

Jun 26, 2010 Full at 231 PM

Jul 15, 2011 Full at 940 AM

adjwi

Peace Nun de plume

Peace adjwi,

Use link below and check the full moon for your area after June 21st and notice sometimes they appear in the daytime and varying hours as well.

Moonrise, Moonset and Moonphase for Saudi Arabia ? Makkah ? July 2008

http//www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=151&month=7&year=2008&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
Jul 16, 2008 97.8%
Jul 17, 2008
Jul 18, 2008 99.8% Full at 1059 AM
Jul 19, 2008 99.7%

Take a look at the picture I posted earlier and imagine walking outside seeing each of those four moons individually (don't have luxury to compare next to each other) -- how would be able to tell which is the full moon with less than .3% Illuminated Phase difference?

The new moon waxing crescent (D in DOC) stands out as does waning crescent C...

http//farm4.static.flickr.com/3226/2472224091_c9637ac4f8.jpg?v=0

We're getting there anthony.

Peace

I appreciate your answer and the difficulty you present. Now, my understanding is that a ''Full Moon'' lasts an instant, then it is enters its phase of less illumination. Now if the question is how can you differ from a ''Full Moon'' and one that is becoming or one that was simply by looking, I agree it is indeed difficult. My answer was to look at it's rising and compare that time to that of the setting sun. Upon re-examining anew the schedule calculated for my location, I noticed that the occurance of the ''Full Moon'' (UT) seems to co-incide with a rising ''Full Moon'' simultaneously to that of the setting sun.

The day of the ''Full Moon'' is one of no darkness sort to speak. After the sun set, the moon rises before the darkness gains all of the sky. Afterwards, the next day and so on darkness seems to take hold up to the time when the moon rises. So to know when is the full moon, one is to watch the movie and not simply look at a picture.

The point that Ayman presents and the problem of calendar is interesting however what does this the new timing of fasting do for the people who live ''down under''? Would we now have two ramadans, one in the northern hemisphere and one in the southern? Both regions can't have scorching moons at the same period of the year. How then would the ''Great Reading'' apply to them? And what about the night of destiny? In who's ramadan does it occur in? Ayman, any thoughts?

adjwi

belH

Peace everyone,

I think that at this stage, it is best to summarize all the different viewpoints on the timing of the abstinence so that people can see the essence of each and not get distracted by all the noise. There are basically four points of view

The traditional timing

We all know the traditional timing so I am not going to waste time on explaining it. Also, everyone who has read the great reading knows that the traditional point of view has zero support in the great reading and this is what has prompted many people here to search for a better one based on the great reading. Basically, the traditional timing has the following problems

Peace all;

My answers to Aymans propaganda is here, http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597103.0, if you are interested to know about his misleading allegations; (this thread is getting to be so confusing)

Ayman, I'm Looking forward for a True debate with you so we can show the truth.
Salam

ayman

Peace Nun,

Why do assume I'm defending all the traditional timings?
I'm looking into this and yours doesn't make sense either. For example, below you state...

If you are not defending the traditional timing then how is your understanding different from the traditional one?

How is that a contradiction?
Is it a contradiction for me to say that I stayed up all last night in the month of September?

It is a contradiction to say "I stayed up only all last night" and then say "I stayed up all night in the month of September". Remember we are talking about TWO SEPARATE statements not one statement like you made up in order to make it work. You are intelligent enough to make up one statement to easily make it work and eliminate the contradiction. Don't you think that the god is certainly far more intelligent than you?

Its clear Quran was sent in a night 971 ?
973 the night Al-Qadr better than a thousand shahr
What contradicts is to compare a ?night? (i.e. time sunset to dawn) better than a thousand full moon snapshots which occur half the time during "the day" as did the full moons after the summer solstice in Makkah, Saudi Arabia for a brief moment the five prior years in a row and will likewise do so in the next three years...

Please see the etymology of the word "ShaHR" and see how the ancient Arabs used the term and its derivatives. In addition to full-moon, it also means something apparent, something bright, something big and round. Do you think that the ancient Arabs thought about the invisible full-moon that has not risen yet from below the horizon as the "ShaHR"?

Also, please look back on this thread and read sister Marie's excellent commentary on 973.

I would suggest that you try for yourself next year to witness the scorching full-moon. It is not just about percent illumination. It is about the full-moon taking the lowest path accross the horizon when it rises and thus appearing more red than the next day's full-moon. Therefore, this year in Mecca one had a choice between the full-moon on the 17th and the one on the 18th. However, if you observed the actual full-moon in Mecca you would see that the one on the 17th takes a lower path accross the horizon and rises more slowly to a maximum altitude of 43 degrees while the one on the 18th rises faster to an altitude of 46.6 degrees. So the one on the 17th in addition to being full would also appear more vivid red than the one on the 18th. Moreover, EVERYONE would have seen it and not had to rely on their Mullah or a computer to tell them when the timing is while they never actually witness it their entire lives. The idea is to start the fast the next day after one witnesses the "scorching full-moon". So observing the scorching full-moon in Mecca on the night of July 17th, you would start the fast on July 18th. This is true for all of the northern hemisphere. So whether in the US or in Europe you would have still fasted starting on the 18th. There is no doubt or confusion about that.

The calculations for Mecca below are from the following site

http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php

MECCA
E 40 00, N22 00
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
Jul 17, 2008
Zone 3h East of Greenwich

h m Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1850 1.7 118.1 1.00
1900 3.6 119.0 1.00
1910 5.5 120.0 1.00
1920 7.4 121.1 1.00
1930 9.3 122.1 1.00
1940 11.2 123.3 1.00
1950 13.0 124.4 1.00
2000 14.9 125.7 1.00
2010 16.7 127.0 1.00
2020 18.5 128.3 1.00
2030 20.2 129.7 1.00
2040 22.0 131.2 1.00
2050 23.6 132.7 1.00
2100 25.3 134.3 1.00
2110 26.9 136.0 1.00
2120 28.4 137.8 1.00
2130 29.9 139.7 1.00
2140 31.4 141.6 1.00
2150 32.8 143.7 1.00
2200 34.1 145.8 1.00
2210 35.3 148.0 1.00
2220 36.5 150.3 1.00
2230 37.6 152.8 1.00
2240 38.6 155.3 1.00
2250 39.5 157.9 1.00
2300 40.4 160.6 1.00
2310 41.1 163.4 1.00
2320 41.7 166.2 1.00
2330 42.2 169.1 1.00
2340 42.6 172.1 1.00
2350 42.9 175.1 1.00
0000 43.0 178.1 1.00
0010 43.0 181.2 1.00
0020 43.0 184.2 1.00

MECCA
E 40 00, N22 00
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
Jul 18, 2008
Zone 3h East of Greenwich

h m Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1930 1.3 114.3 1.00
1940 3.2 115.2 1.00
1950 5.1 116.2 1.00
2000 7.1 117.2 1.00
2010 9.1 118.2 1.00
2020 11.1 119.3 1.00
2030 13.0 120.4 1.00
2040 14.9 121.6 1.00
2050 16.9 122.9 1.00
2100 18.7 124.2 1.00
2110 20.6 125.5 1.00
2120 22.4 127.0 1.00
2130 24.2 128.5 1.00
2140 26.0 130.0 1.00
2150 27.7 131.7 1.00
2200 29.4 133.4 1.00
2210 31.0 135.2 1.00
2220 32.6 137.2 1.00
2230 34.2 139.2 1.00
2240 35.6 141.3 1.00
2250 37.0 143.5 1.00
2300 38.4 145.9 1.00
2310 39.6 148.3 1.00
2320 40.8 150.9 1.00
2330 41.9 153.6 1.00
2340 42.8 156.3 1.00
2350 43.7 159.2 1.00
0000 44.5 162.2 1.00
0010 45.2 165.3 1.00
0020 45.7 168.5 1.00
0030 46.1 171.7 1.00
0040 46.4 175.0 1.00
0050 46.6 178.3 1.00

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Adjwi,

The point that Ayman presents and the problem of calendar is interesting however what does this the new timing of fasting do for the people who live ''down under''? Would we now have two ramadans, one in the northern hemisphere and one in the southern? Both regions can't have scorching moons at the same period of the year. How then would the ''Great Reading'' apply to them? And what about the night of destiny? In who's ramadan does it occur in? Ayman, any thoughts?

Those questions have been answered several times on this thread. The fact that the restricted full-moons only purpose is wild life hunting restriction and wild life follows the solar cycle tells us that the period of the restriction must be different between the Northern and Southern hemispheres. Everything has a purpose. The idea that everyone has to fast together to achieve "unity" is false as evident in the highly disunited and self-destructing so-called Islamic world today.

Peace,

Ayman

anthonywallace

Peace aymen, and all

There is only one place to worship God at...

He sees you looking to the sky; now He will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you...

You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple...

All of you...

And were ever you be or werever you at, or werever you go out, you shall set yourselves towards it...

So now let us ask this, traditional or not

Are the believers fasting in mecca??? In accord to the command in 2183-186 .??? Or at least do they think they are fasting in accord to it if you are in opposition...?

peace

ayman

Peace Anthony,

There is only one place to worship God at...

No way. The god is not an idol stored inside a black stone box.

He sees you looking to the sky; now He will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you...
You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple...
All of you...
And were ever you be or werever you at, or werever you go out, you shall set yourselves towards it...

Do you face a Sacred Temple "wherever you be or wherever you at, or wherever you go out"? I think not.

So now let us ask this, traditional or not
Are the believers fasting in mecca??? In accord to the command in 2183-186 .??? Or at least do they think they are fasting in accord to it if you are in opposition...?

No one (believer or otherwise) anywhere (Mecca or anywhere) can fast according to 2183-186 if they take the key word "ramadan" in 2185 as meaningless.

Peace,

Ayman

anthonywallace

Peace Anthony,

No way. The god is not an idol stored inside a black stone box.

Do you face a Sacred Temple brickwall "wherever you be or wherever you at, or wherever you go out"? I think not.

No one (believer or otherwise) anywhere (Mecca or anywhere) can fast according to 2183-186 if they take the key word "ramadan" in 2185 as meaningless.

Peace,

Ayman

He chooses to worshiped at the Sacred Temple. And He is owed by the people to make pilgramage to it, P and whoever rejects, then God is Rich, the Praiseworthy...

And you shall face that direction when you pray...and that should be were you plan to go... P

were are the sacrafices slatered at? were is the pilgramage to? What is the focal point? Towards the Temple... ;D

Do not sacrafise goat demons in just any field ect...There is only one place to do this at and to make pilgramage to...

And my Lords hands are wide open, spending as He pleases...I didnt say He was an idol stored in a black stone box...My Lord will destroy every idol...

And my focal point is that direction, towards the Sacred Temple P

Yes I do. P

Sibute

Hi,
Plume wrote
What contradicts is to compare a ?night? (i.e. time sunset to dawn) better than a thousand full moon snapshots which occur half the time during "the day" as did the full moons after the summer solstice in Makkah, Saudi Arabia for a brief moment the five prior years in a row and will likewise do so in the next three years...

Night is actually measured accurately by seamen as
Nautical Twilight Starts/Ends
Nautical twilight is the period when the center of the Sun is between 6 and 12 degrees below the horizon, when bright stars are still visible in clear weather and the horizon is becoming visible. It is too dark to do outdoor activities without additional lighting.

thx.

unknownuser

Peace Ayman,

If you are not defending the traditional timing then how is your understanding different from the traditional one?

I'm still working on it.

It is a contradiction to say "I stayed up only all last night" and then say "I stayed up all night in the month of September". Remember we are talking about TWO SEPARATE statements not one statement like you made up in order to make it work. You are intelligent enough to make up one statement to easily make it work and eliminate the contradiction. Don't you think that the god is certainly far more intelligent than you?

God gave us intelligence and we know days/nights = months = years.

4615 And We have enjoined on man to be dutiful and kind to his parents. His mother bears him with hardship and she brings him forth with hardship, and the bearing of him, and the weaning of him is thirty (30) months, till when he attains full strength and reaches forty years...

Night is actually measured accurately by seamen as
Nautical Twilight Starts/Ends
Nautical twilight is the period when the center of the Sun is between 6 and 12 degrees below the horizon, when bright stars are still visible in clear weather and the horizon is becoming visible. It is too dark to do outdoor activities without additional lighting.

thx.

Hi Sibute --

I go by Quran definition of night not seaman (I was one at age 16 btw) how dark is the night.

20130 So bear patiently what they say, and glorify the praises of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during some of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day, that you may become pleased with the reward which Allah shall give you.

See thread...

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596792.msg177611#msg177611

Thanks

Sibute

Hi Plume,

20130 So bear patiently what they say, and glorify the praises of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during some of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day, that you may become pleased with the reward which Allah shall give .

Thank you for this wonderful quote plume but my point is night is not equal to sunrise - sunset but from the quote above it it clearly distincts between rising, setting and the hours of the night.

All scientific discoveries will relate back to the quran whether it be a seamen,scientist or anyone who seeks knowledge of this universe.
i can see that you are well verse with quotes from the quran and thats good but one should also refelect on how people with knowledge should also be sought after when it conforms with what quran is telling us.

Thank you.

unknownuser

Hi Sibute,

You are welcome -- I read it as night being exactly from sunset to dawn.

911-3

And by the sun and its brightness;
And by the moon as it follows it (the sun);
And by the night as it conceals it (the sun);

http//i34.tinypic.com/2qun98y.jpg

Peace

anthonywallace

Peace Anthony,

No way. The god is not an idol stored inside a black stone box.

Do you face a Sacred Temple "wherever you be or wherever you at, or wherever you go out"? I think not.

No one (believer or otherwise) anywhere (Mecca or anywhere) can fast according to 2183-186 if they take the key word "ramadan" in 2185 as meaningless.

Peace,

Ayman

Let me ask you in other words

Has it been announed that it is time to fast? wow

Did you witness the month/moon ( of " Ramadan) ? yes, I believe you surely did.

And are they fasting in Meccah? ( celebrating Ramadan fast ) ?

Sibute

Hi Sibute,

You are welcome -- I read it as night being exactly from sunset to dawn.

911-3

And by the sun and its brightness;
And by the moon as it follows it (the sun);
And by the night as it conceals it (the sun);

Well I guess when the sun is concealed just below the horizon ( zero degrees) with its light beaming to the observer like you during sunset it must mean you break your fast??

thank you.

progod

WHY THE MOON CHANGES COLOR

http//wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_the_moon_change_color

http//home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/moonorange/

http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2007/03aug_dreamyeclipse.htm

Godbless,
Anwar
I'll see if i can find some more articles, from more scientific sources.

unknownuser

Well I guess when the sun is concealed just below the horizon ( zero degrees) with its light beaming to the observer like you during sunset it must mean you break your fast??

thank you.

If the sun is concealed below the horizon then its direct light cannot beam the observer and I break my fast.

Likewise when it is unconcealed at dawn and its white thread is beaming at the observer I start my fast.

Thank you.

ayman

WHY THE MOON CHANGES COLOR
http//wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_the_moon_change_color
http//home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/moonorange/

Quote from above

When the moon is near the horizon, the moonlight must pass through much more atmosphere than when the moon is directly overhead. By the time the moonlight reaches your eyes, the blue, green, and purple pieces of visible light have been scattered away by air molecules. That's why you only see yellow, orange, or red.

It is a scientific fact that the full-moon around the summer solstice takes the lowest path accross the horizon. This is why it appears more vivid red than any other full-moon. This fact was explained in my article and people can easily confirm it.

Peace,

Ayman

Ahmad_Bilal

And you shall face that direction when you pray...and that should be were you plan to go...

Where in the reading does it say we must face "Mecca" when we pray? And where does the reading say we must go to "Mecca" to make pilgrimage?

Peace,

Ahmad