Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Nun,
Why do assume I'm defending all the traditional timings?
I'm looking into this and yours doesn't make sense either. For example, below you state...If you are not defending the traditional timing then how is your understanding different from the traditional one?
How is that a contradiction?
Is it a contradiction for me to say that I stayed up all last night in the month of September?It is a contradiction to say "I stayed up only all last night" and then say "I stayed up all night in the month of September". Remember we are talking about TWO SEPARATE statements not one statement like you made up in order to make it work. You are intelligent enough to make up one statement to easily make it work and eliminate the contradiction. Don't you think that the god is certainly far more intelligent than you?
Its clear Quran was sent in a night 971 ?
973 the night Al-Qadr better than a thousand shahr
What contradicts is to compare a ?night? (i.e. time sunset to dawn) better than a thousand full moon snapshots which occur half the time during "the day" as did the full moons after the summer solstice in Makkah, Saudi Arabia for a brief moment the five prior years in a row and will likewise do so in the next three years...Please see the etymology of the word "ShaHR" and see how the ancient Arabs used the term and its derivatives. In addition to full-moon, it also means something apparent, something bright, something big and round. Do you think that the ancient Arabs thought about the invisible full-moon that has not risen yet from below the horizon as the "ShaHR"?
Also, please look back on this thread and read sister Marie's excellent commentary on 973.
I would suggest that you try for yourself next year to witness the scorching full-moon. It is not just about percent illumination. It is about the full-moon taking the lowest path accross the horizon when it rises and thus appearing more red than the next day's full-moon. Therefore, this year in Mecca one had a choice between the full-moon on the 17th and the one on the 18th. However, if you observed the actual full-moon in Mecca you would see that the one on the 17th takes a lower path accross the horizon and rises more slowly to a maximum altitude of 43 degrees while the one on the 18th rises faster to an altitude of 46.6 degrees. So the one on the 17th in addition to being full would also appear more vivid red than the one on the 18th. Moreover, EVERYONE would have seen it and not had to rely on their Mullah or a computer to tell them when the timing is while they never actually witness it their entire lives. The idea is to start the fast the next day after one witnesses the "scorching full-moon". So observing the scorching full-moon in Mecca on the night of July 17th, you would start the fast on July 18th. This is true for all of the northern hemisphere. So whether in the US or in Europe you would have still fasted starting on the 18th. There is no doubt or confusion about that.
The calculations for Mecca below are from the following site
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
MECCA
E 40 00, N22 00
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
Jul 17, 2008
Zone 3h East of Greenwichh m Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1850 1.7 118.1 1.00
1900 3.6 119.0 1.00
1910 5.5 120.0 1.00
1920 7.4 121.1 1.00
1930 9.3 122.1 1.00
1940 11.2 123.3 1.00
1950 13.0 124.4 1.00
2000 14.9 125.7 1.00
2010 16.7 127.0 1.00
2020 18.5 128.3 1.00
2030 20.2 129.7 1.00
2040 22.0 131.2 1.00
2050 23.6 132.7 1.00
2100 25.3 134.3 1.00
2110 26.9 136.0 1.00
2120 28.4 137.8 1.00
2130 29.9 139.7 1.00
2140 31.4 141.6 1.00
2150 32.8 143.7 1.00
2200 34.1 145.8 1.00
2210 35.3 148.0 1.00
2220 36.5 150.3 1.00
2230 37.6 152.8 1.00
2240 38.6 155.3 1.00
2250 39.5 157.9 1.00
2300 40.4 160.6 1.00
2310 41.1 163.4 1.00
2320 41.7 166.2 1.00
2330 42.2 169.1 1.00
2340 42.6 172.1 1.00
2350 42.9 175.1 1.00
0000 43.0 178.1 1.00
0010 43.0 181.2 1.00
0020 43.0 184.2 1.00MECCA
E 40 00, N22 00
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
Jul 18, 2008
Zone 3h East of Greenwichh m Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1930 1.3 114.3 1.00
1940 3.2 115.2 1.00
1950 5.1 116.2 1.00
2000 7.1 117.2 1.00
2010 9.1 118.2 1.00
2020 11.1 119.3 1.00
2030 13.0 120.4 1.00
2040 14.9 121.6 1.00
2050 16.9 122.9 1.00
2100 18.7 124.2 1.00
2110 20.6 125.5 1.00
2120 22.4 127.0 1.00
2130 24.2 128.5 1.00
2140 26.0 130.0 1.00
2150 27.7 131.7 1.00
2200 29.4 133.4 1.00
2210 31.0 135.2 1.00
2220 32.6 137.2 1.00
2230 34.2 139.2 1.00
2240 35.6 141.3 1.00
2250 37.0 143.5 1.00
2300 38.4 145.9 1.00
2310 39.6 148.3 1.00
2320 40.8 150.9 1.00
2330 41.9 153.6 1.00
2340 42.8 156.3 1.00
2350 43.7 159.2 1.00
0000 44.5 162.2 1.00
0010 45.2 165.3 1.00
0020 45.7 168.5 1.00
0030 46.1 171.7 1.00
0040 46.4 175.0 1.00
0050 46.6 178.3 1.00I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Adjwi,
The point that Ayman presents and the problem of calendar is interesting however what does this the new timing of fasting do for the people who live ''down under''? Would we now have two ramadans, one in the northern hemisphere and one in the southern? Both regions can't have scorching moons at the same period of the year. How then would the ''Great Reading'' apply to them? And what about the night of destiny? In who's ramadan does it occur in? Ayman, any thoughts?
Those questions have been answered several times on this thread. The fact that the restricted full-moons only purpose is wild life hunting restriction and wild life follows the solar cycle tells us that the period of the restriction must be different between the Northern and Southern hemispheres. Everything has a purpose. The idea that everyone has to fast together to achieve "unity" is false as evident in the highly disunited and self-destructing so-called Islamic world today.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace aymen, and all
There is only one place to worship God at...
He sees you looking to the sky; now He will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you...
You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple...
All of you...
And were ever you be or werever you at, or werever you go out, you shall set yourselves towards it...
So now let us ask this, traditional or not
Are the believers fasting in mecca??? In accord to the command in 2183-186 .??? Or at least do they think they are fasting in accord to it if you are in opposition...?
peace
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Peace Anthony,
There is only one place to worship God at...
No way. The god is not an idol stored inside a black stone box.
He sees you looking to the sky; now He will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you...
You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple...
All of you...
And were ever you be or werever you at, or werever you go out, you shall set yourselves towards it...Do you face a Sacred Temple "wherever you be or wherever you at, or wherever you go out"? I think not.
So now let us ask this, traditional or not
Are the believers fasting in mecca??? In accord to the command in 2183-186 .??? Or at least do they think they are fasting in accord to it if you are in opposition...?No one (believer or otherwise) anywhere (Mecca or anywhere) can fast according to 2183-186 if they take the key word "ramadan" in 2185 as meaningless.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Anthony,
No way. The god is not an idol stored inside a black stone box.
Do you face a Sacred Temple brickwall "wherever you be or wherever you at, or wherever you go out"? I think not.
No one (believer or otherwise) anywhere (Mecca or anywhere) can fast according to 2183-186 if they take the key word "ramadan" in 2185 as meaningless.
Peace,
Ayman
He chooses to worshiped at the Sacred Temple. And He is owed by the people to make pilgramage to it, P and whoever rejects, then God is Rich, the Praiseworthy...
And you shall face that direction when you pray...and that should be were you plan to go... P
were are the sacrafices slatered at? were is the pilgramage to? What is the focal point? Towards the Temple... ;D
Do not sacrafise goat demons in just any field ect...There is only one place to do this at and to make pilgramage to...
And my Lords hands are wide open, spending as He pleases...I didnt say He was an idol stored in a black stone box...My Lord will destroy every idol...
And my focal point is that direction, towards the Sacred Temple P
Yes I do. P
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Hi,
Plume wrote
What contradicts is to compare a ?night? (i.e. time sunset to dawn) better than a thousand full moon snapshots which occur half the time during "the day" as did the full moons after the summer solstice in Makkah, Saudi Arabia for a brief moment the five prior years in a row and will likewise do so in the next three years...Night is actually measured accurately by seamen as
Nautical Twilight Starts/Ends
Nautical twilight is the period when the center of the Sun is between 6 and 12 degrees below the horizon, when bright stars are still visible in clear weather and the horizon is becoming visible. It is too dark to do outdoor activities without additional lighting.thx.
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Peace Ayman,
If you are not defending the traditional timing then how is your understanding different from the traditional one?
I'm still working on it.
It is a contradiction to say "I stayed up only all last night" and then say "I stayed up all night in the month of September". Remember we are talking about TWO SEPARATE statements not one statement like you made up in order to make it work. You are intelligent enough to make up one statement to easily make it work and eliminate the contradiction. Don't you think that the god is certainly far more intelligent than you?
God gave us intelligence and we know days/nights = months = years.
4615 And We have enjoined on man to be dutiful and kind to his parents. His mother bears him with hardship and she brings him forth with hardship, and the bearing of him, and the weaning of him is thirty (30) months, till when he attains full strength and reaches forty years...
Night is actually measured accurately by seamen as
Nautical Twilight Starts/Ends
Nautical twilight is the period when the center of the Sun is between 6 and 12 degrees below the horizon, when bright stars are still visible in clear weather and the horizon is becoming visible. It is too dark to do outdoor activities without additional lighting.thx.
Hi Sibute --
I go by Quran definition of night not seaman (I was one at age 16 btw) how dark is the night.
20130 So bear patiently what they say, and glorify the praises of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during some of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day, that you may become pleased with the reward which Allah shall give you.
See thread...
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596792.msg177611#msg177611
Thanks
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Hi Plume,
20130 So bear patiently what they say, and glorify the praises of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during some of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day, that you may become pleased with the reward which Allah shall give .
Thank you for this wonderful quote plume but my point is night is not equal to sunrise - sunset but from the quote above it it clearly distincts between rising, setting and the hours of the night.
All scientific discoveries will relate back to the quran whether it be a seamen,scientist or anyone who seeks knowledge of this universe.
i can see that you are well verse with quotes from the quran and thats good but one should also refelect on how people with knowledge should also be sought after when it conforms with what quran is telling us.Thank you.
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Hi Sibute,
You are welcome -- I read it as night being exactly from sunset to dawn.
911-3
And by the sun and its brightness;
And by the moon as it follows it (the sun);
And by the night as it conceals it (the sun);http//i34.tinypic.com/2qun98y.jpg
Peace
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Peace Anthony,
No way. The god is not an idol stored inside a black stone box.
Do you face a Sacred Temple "wherever you be or wherever you at, or wherever you go out"? I think not.
No one (believer or otherwise) anywhere (Mecca or anywhere) can fast according to 2183-186 if they take the key word "ramadan" in 2185 as meaningless.
Peace,
Ayman
Let me ask you in other words
Has it been announed that it is time to fast? wow
Did you witness the month/moon ( of " Ramadan) ? yes, I believe you surely did.
And are they fasting in Meccah? ( celebrating Ramadan fast ) ?
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Hi Sibute,
You are welcome -- I read it as night being exactly from sunset to dawn.
911-3
And by the sun and its brightness;
And by the moon as it follows it (the sun);
And by the night as it conceals it (the sun);Well I guess when the sun is concealed just below the horizon ( zero degrees) with its light beaming to the observer like you during sunset it must mean you break your fast??
thank you.
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WHY THE MOON CHANGES COLOR
http//wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_the_moon_change_color
http//home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/moonorange/
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2007/03aug_dreamyeclipse.htm
Godbless,
Anwar
I'll see if i can find some more articles, from more scientific sources. -
Well I guess when the sun is concealed just below the horizon ( zero degrees) with its light beaming to the observer like you during sunset it must mean you break your fast??
thank you.
If the sun is concealed below the horizon then its direct light cannot beam the observer and I break my fast.
Likewise when it is unconcealed at dawn and its white thread is beaming at the observer I start my fast.
Thank you.
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WHY THE MOON CHANGES COLOR
http//wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_the_moon_change_color
http//home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/moonorange/Quote from above
When the moon is near the horizon, the moonlight must pass through much more atmosphere than when the moon is directly overhead. By the time the moonlight reaches your eyes, the blue, green, and purple pieces of visible light have been scattered away by air molecules. That's why you only see yellow, orange, or red.
It is a scientific fact that the full-moon around the summer solstice takes the lowest path accross the horizon. This is why it appears more vivid red than any other full-moon. This fact was explained in my article and people can easily confirm it.
Peace,
Ayman
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And you shall face that direction when you pray...and that should be were you plan to go...
Where in the reading does it say we must face "Mecca" when we pray? And where does the reading say we must go to "Mecca" to make pilgrimage?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Where in the reading does it say we must face "Mecca" when we pray? And where does the reading say we must go to "Mecca" to make pilgrimage?
Peace,
Ahmad
Were is the House of God at? The place of Abraham??? I thought it wa s mecca...
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Peace be upon all,
Br. Ayman, I'd like to say thanks for that post on showing the differences in the different opinions on sharh ramadan, it was a useful way for me to look at the issue more deeply. As of now, I am convinced that sharh, as used in the reading, translates to full moon in all of the reading. I have noticed that for those who take the meaning to be 'month', containing anywhere from 28-31 days as used in the world today, and those who take the meaning to be 'full moon' then for all of the time periods mentioned in the reading using 'shahr' as a way to count, then they differ by '1 month' each, month being however many days happen to fall between 2 full moons. However, I do have one question for you about the first part of the verse 3412 "And for Sulaiman the wind ghuduwuhaa shahr and rawaahuhaa shahr..." If one translates it using 'month' then the translations that I've seen have to add the word 'journey' which is not mentioned in the verse as far as I see. If you translate it as 'full moon' then how do you understand this verse? ??? I do not know a whole lot about the science of wind and all so maybe I am missing something, I don't know. However, I clearly do not like and do not accept when translators add words to seemingly make a verse more complete and clear as if it wasn't already!
The next points that I would like to share with everyone is what I also see as contradictions involving the meaning 'month' for shahr in the reading. These points are also what really convinces me that 'full moon' is the correct meaning.
The 4 verses in question are 2184, 2228, 92 and 937. In 2184, I believe that the word shaheda lends a lot of weight that shahr means full moon which is something that can be witnessed/ seen. Samia, I also checked about the usage of shaheda in the book and I agree that in this verse it has to do with witnessing/ seeing something 'physically'. It hasn't made any sense to me 'witness/ see a month'. Looking at the Saudi sunni translations that I have with me, they add the words 'the new moon of' before 'month'. This is another indication to me that something is not right since the god uses the word for 'new moon', as they understand it, in the reading 'ahillah' but He is not using it in this verse, why? However, if the meaning is full moon then there is no need to 'perfect' it.
In 2228, the god mentions that the divorced women wait for 3 quruu' which means menstrual cycles. As I understand it, when you see that the first cycle has begun, you begin counting. The second comes, you still wait and when the 3rd begins your waiting is over. This count is also by a clear 'seeing' something that can't be mistaken. That would be in minimum, equivalent to '2 months' time as we understand month. However, in verse 654, the god says that for the women that don't have menses anymore, if you doubt, then their count is 3 ashhur and for those who didn't have a menstrual cycle. If this means '3 months' then these 2 verses don't agree. If '3 months' is correct then why the difference? If we take '3 full moons' then that also equals to verse 2228 in the minimum. I don't see any reason why it should be different and I believe the clue is in the words 'if you doubt'.
In 92, the god tells those who ascribe partners with Him that they can go through the earth 4 ashhur. When I was a sunni following the lunar calendar as they do, they teach that the '4 forbidden months' are Thul Qa'dah, Thul Hijjah, Muharram, 11th, 12th and 1st month respectively and then Rajab the 9th month. When I read this verse for meaning the first time I noticed that these '4 ashhur' should be consecutive, it wouldn't make any sense otherwise. Then in verse 95, the god confirms that these '4 ashhur' are the 4 hurum. How can I follow a lunar calendar that has separated the 4 hurum and also rotates through the seasons thereby constantly changing the 4 hurum? Lastly on this point, the 4 ashhur hurum is either '4 months' or '4 full moons' which is equivalent to 3 months time. The 4 seasons lasts for about 3 months each correct?
Regarding verse 937, right after the god tells us about the count of 12 ashhur, it seems to me that if the people at the time of the revelation of the book were going by counting full moons, and there is sometimes this extra 13th full moon the god tells us that to sometimes count it and sometimes not is an increase in disbelief. Correct me if I am wrong but what I also get out of this is that when people decide to use a certain 'calendar' per se, at least in our times, they don't make it sometimes 12 and sometimes 13 since it's a 'calendar' that is used to regulate the systems we follow. The traditional sunni lunar calendar stays 12 months, by some names that I don't know where they came from and doesn't even recognize the seasons as meaning anything related to the great reading which is a big crime. Where in the reading is it even remotely suggested that the 4 ashhur hurum are not constant from year to year?
These are just my observations regarding this issue and I am eager for anyone to reply. I want to further my understanding and be certain with whatever conclusion I come to based on strong evidence from the god's book.
Umm Tariq
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2185 The Quran was sent down in the red moon, to guide the people and to clarify the guidance and the Difference between Right and Wronge . So one should fast the entire moon, whoever of you witnesses it. And whoever is ill or on a journey, then finish on different days . God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship ; and so that you may complete the term , and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
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Salam everyone
As of now, I am convinced that sharh, as used in the reading, translates to full moon in all of the reading. I have noticed that for those who take the meaning to be 'month', containing anywhere from 28-31 days as used in the world today, and those who take the meaning to be 'full moon' then for all of the time periods mentioned in the reading using 'shahr' as a way to count, then they differ by '1 month' each, month being however many days happen to fall between 2 full moons.
If You follow the Quran, you will be calculating each Month period using the Moon Cycle. But if you try to use Ayman way, which is not the Quran way, you will be confused.
The Moon Cycle is from the Waxing Crescent stages to the Next Waxing Crescent stage, which is EQUAL IN NUMBER of DAYS TO
1- Full Moon Stage to the next Full Moon Stage;
2- from Wening Crescent to the next Wening CrescentNow why are you so confused like Ayman in number of days per Moon Month?
The Number of Days will be the same if you were Honest when calculating; but Ayman is trying to Cheat Allah in Fasting by discounting the Month Days to 10 days.