Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
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Peace Nun, everyone,
As Nun says, ?it?s clear the Quran structure is mathematical?. The Quran even/odd or binary (0/1) structure cannot be replicated by man or machine -- move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart and uses checksums same as computer systems to ensure the message arrives intact, in order, and uncorrupted with exactly 114 chapters and 6236 verses. Nun?s checksum method is described here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16442.msg175363#msg175363
Nineteen years after the Prophet's death, some scribes injected false verses at the end of Sura 9, the last sura revealed in Medina. The evidence presented here incontrovertibly removes these human injections, restores the Quran to its pristine purity, and illustrates a major funtion of the Quran's mathematical code, namely, to protect the Quran from the slightest tampering or even major tampering. Surah 9 should include only 29 verses. Verses 30 to 129 were added 19 years after the prophet?s death. `Ali was outraged. He vehemently maintained that the word of God, written down by the hand of His final prophet, must never be altered, as evidenced by his protest which is documented in many classic references (classic references agree with the code and therefore are not to be confused with classic satanic Hadiths references)
`Ali was asked "Why are you staying home?" He said, "Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored."
The mischievous scribes seeing that the Quran was getting heavier, decided to remove verses to compensate for the ones they added and to balance things out. Unfortunately, because ?Ali couldn?t go out of his house in his pajamas to stop them as evidenced by the above classic reference, 19 months later, the scribes were going crazy and adding and deleting verses all over the place. Pretty soon, none of chapters remained intact. For example, Surah 2 should have 1024 verses according to Nun?s checksum method and they reduced it to 286, while chapter 4 should only have 2 verses and so on. Fortunately, the mischievous scribes did not know that we now have Nun?s foolproof checksum method that can?t be replicated by man or machine. Move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart. As Nun said, the checksum method proves the structure/symmetry of the uncorrupted Quran as we see below
60 Even verses = 30 even-even + 30 odd-even
54 Odd verses = 27 odd-odd + 27 even-oddSurah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd
1..........75..........76..........76..........
2..........1024..........1026..........1026..........
3..........390..........393....................393
4..........2..........6..........6..........
5..........52..........57....................57
6..........51..........57....................57
7..........402..........409....................409
8..........5..........13....................13
9..........29..........38..........38..........
10..........9..........19....................19
11..........9..........20..........20..........
12..........135..........147....................147
13..........215..........228..........228..........
14..........4..........18..........18..........
15..........23..........38..........38..........
16..........20..........36..........36..........
17..........21..........38..........38..........
18..........10..........28..........28..........
19..........76..........95....................95
20..........177..........197....................197
21..........36..........57....................57
22..........28..........50..........50..........
23..........110..........133....................133
24..........10..........34..........34..........
25..........7..........32..........32..........
26..........443..........469....................469
27..........107..........134..........134..........
28..........104..........132..........132..........
29..........69..........98..........98..........
30..........58..........88..........88..........
31..........2..........33....................33
32..........18..........50..........50..........
33..........63..........96..........96..........
34..........80..........114..........114..........
35..........25..........60..........60..........
36..........21..........57....................57
37..........86..........123....................123
38..........76..........114..........114..........
39..........81..........120..........120..........
40..........95..........135....................135
41..........62..........103....................103
42..........33..........75....................75
43..........55..........98..........98..........
44..........3..........47....................47
45..........71..........116..........116..........
46..........85..........131....................131
47..........46..........93....................93
48..........9..........57....................57
49..........8..........57....................57
50..........37..........87....................87
51..........64..........115....................115
52..........65..........117....................117
53..........80..........133....................133
54..........17..........71....................71
55..........96..........151....................151
56..........68..........124..........124..........
57..........57..........114..........114..........1-57...................6757.....3126......3631 <--------1st checksum 1st half
6757 3126 3631 = 19 x 3556480334958..........18..........76..........76..........
59..........74..........133....................133
60..........13..........73....................73
61..........14..........75....................75
62..........71..........133....................133
63..........13..........76..........76..........
64..........20..........84..........84..........
65..........12..........77....................77
66..........10..........76..........76..........
67..........28..........95....................95
68..........54..........122..........122..........
69..........2..........71....................71
70..........44..........114..........114..........
71..........30..........101....................101
72..........42..........114..........114..........
73..........20..........93....................93
74..........40..........114..........114..........
75..........10..........85....................85
76..........19..........95....................95
77..........20..........97....................97
78..........36..........114..........114..........
79..........58..........137....................137
80..........34..........114..........114..........
81..........13..........94..........94..........
82..........23..........105....................105
83..........34..........117....................117
84..........23..........107....................107
85..........26..........111....................111
86..........11..........97....................97
87..........21..........108..........108..........
88..........24..........112..........112..........
89..........26..........115....................115
90..........12..........102..........102..........
91..........23..........114..........114..........
92..........19..........111....................111
93..........21..........114..........114..........
94..........2..........96..........96..........
95..........38..........133....................133
96..........7..........103....................103
97..........1..........98..........98..........
98..........10..........108..........108..........
99..........2..........101....................101
100..........1..........101....................101
101..........9..........110..........110..........
102..........10..........112..........112..........
103..........1..........104..........104..........
104..........1..........105....................105
105..........9..........114..........114..........
106..........8..........114..........114..........
107..........1..........108..........108..........
108..........1..........109....................109
109..........2..........111....................111
110..........23..........133....................133
111..........1..........112..........112..........
112..........6..........118..........118..........
113..........3..........116..........116..........
114..........38..........152..........152..........58-114............6034.......3110.......2924 <-------- middle checksum 2nd half
3110 6034 2924 = 19 x 16371596996Totals 1-114
6555.......6236.....12791...6236.....6555 <-------- last checksum totals
6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989
6555 = 19 x 345
12791 is a prime number as is 19!
Not only did Nun?s checksum method restore the structure/symmetry of the Quran, it pointed out some additional miraculous properties. For example, please note that the chapters marked in bold when restored are divisible by 19. Even more astonishing is the fact that the number of chapters divided by 19 within each symmetric checksum grouping is also 19!
In fact, put the checksums side by side and the beautiful inimitable superhuman symmetry becomes apparent
Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd 19 Surah#.......... Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd 19 Surah#
1..........75..........76..........76....................1....................58..........18..........76..........76....................58
2..........1024..........1026..........1026....................2....................59..........74..........133....................133..........59
3..........390..........393....................393.......... -....................60..........13..........73....................73.......... -
4..........2..........6..........6.................... -....................61..........14..........75....................75.......... -
5..........52..........57....................57..........5....................62..........71..........133....................133..........62
6..........51..........57....................57..........6....................63..........13..........76..........76....................63
7..........402..........409....................409.......... -....................64..........20..........84..........84.................... -
8..........5..........13....................13.......... -....................65..........12..........77....................77.......... -
9..........29..........38..........38....................9....................66..........10..........76..........76....................66
10..........9..........19....................19..........10....................67..........28..........95....................95..........67
11..........9..........20..........20.................... -....................68..........54..........122..........122.................... -
12..........135..........147....................147.......... -....................69..........2..........71....................71.......... -
13..........215..........228..........228....................13....................70..........44..........114..........114....................70
14..........4..........18..........18.................... -....................71..........30..........101....................101.......... -
15..........23..........38..........38....................15....................72..........42..........114..........114....................72
16..........20..........36..........36.................... -....................73..........20..........93....................93.......... -
17..........21..........38..........38....................17....................74..........40..........114..........114....................74
18..........10..........28..........28.................... -....................75..........10..........85....................85.......... -
19..........76..........95....................95..........19....................76..........19..........95....................95..........76
20..........177..........197....................197.......... -....................77..........20..........97....................97.......... -
21..........36..........57....................57..........21....................78..........36..........114..........114....................78
22..........28..........50..........50.................... -....................79..........58..........137....................137.......... -
23..........110..........133....................133..........23....................80..........34..........114..........114....................80
24..........10..........34..........34.................... -....................81..........13..........94..........94.................... -
25..........7..........32..........32.................... -....................82..........23..........105....................105.......... -
26..........443..........469....................469.......... -....................83..........34..........117....................117.......... -
27..........107..........134..........134.................... -....................84..........23..........107....................107.......... -
28..........104..........132..........132.................... -....................85..........26..........111....................111.......... -
29..........69..........98..........98.................... -....................86..........11..........97....................97.......... -
30..........58..........88..........88.................... -....................87..........21..........108..........108.................... -
31..........2..........33....................33.......... -....................88..........24..........112..........112.................... -
32..........18..........50..........50.................... -....................89..........26..........115....................115.......... -
33..........63..........96..........96.................... -....................90..........12..........102..........102.................... -
34..........80..........114..........114....................34....................91..........23..........114..........114....................91
35..........25..........60..........60.................... -....................92..........19..........111....................111.......... -
36..........21..........57....................57..........36....................93..........21..........114..........114....................93
37..........86..........123....................123.......... -....................94..........2..........96..........96.................... -
38..........76..........114..........114....................38....................95..........38..........133....................133..........95
39..........81..........120..........120.................... -....................96..........7..........103....................103.......... -
40..........95..........135....................135.......... -....................97..........1..........98..........98.................... -
41..........62..........103....................103.......... -....................98..........10..........108..........108.................... -
42..........33..........75....................75.......... -....................99..........2..........101....................101.......... -
43..........55..........98..........98.................... -....................100..........1..........101....................101.......... -
44..........3..........47....................47.......... -....................101..........9..........110..........110.................... -
45..........71..........116..........116.................... -....................102..........10..........112..........112.................... -
46..........85..........131....................131.......... -....................103..........1..........104..........104.................... -
47..........46..........93....................93.......... -....................104..........1..........105....................105.......... -
48..........9..........57....................57..........48....................105..........9..........114..........114....................105
49..........8..........57....................57..........49....................106..........8..........114..........114....................106
50..........37..........87....................87.......... -....................107..........1..........108..........108.................... -
51..........64..........115....................115.......... -....................108..........1..........109....................109.......... -
52..........65..........117....................117.......... -....................109..........2..........111....................111.......... -
53..........80..........133....................133..........53....................110..........23..........133....................133..........110
54..........17..........71....................71.......... -....................111..........1..........112..........112.................... -
55..........96..........151....................151.......... -....................112..........6..........118..........118.................... -
56..........68..........124..........124.................... -....................113..........3..........116..........116.................... -
57..........57..........114..........114....................57....................114..........38..........152..........152....................1141-57 Total number of chapters divisible by 19 = 19
58-114 Total number of chapters divisible by 19 = 19
Totals 1-114 19 +19 = 38 = 19x2
Even more amazing is the fact that when you add the chapter numbers of the 19 divisible chapters for each checksum group the result is also 19 divisible
1-57
1+2+5+6+9+10+13+15+17+19+21+23+34+36+38+48+49+53+57= 456 = 19 x 2458-114
58+59+62+63+66+67+70+72+74+76+78+80+91+93+95+105+106+110+114 = 1539 = 19 x 81Totals 1-114
1+2+5+6+9+......+106+110+114 = 1995 = 19 x 105
So the symmetry is not only in the Checksum but also in the chapters divisible by 19 and the total of the chapter numbers in each symmetric group of checksum.
Now instead of adding the chapter numbers and dividing by 19, place the chapter number totals in a checksum as Nun did above. The result is also a multiple of 19!
456 1539 1995 = 19 x 2400810105
In fact, order the checksum of the totals any way you want and the result will always be 19 divisible!
1995 456 1539 = 19 x 1050240081
1539 1995 456 = 19 x 810105024
1995 1539 456 = 19 x 1050081024
456 1995 1539 = 19 x 2401050081
456 1539 1995 = 19 x 2400810105
1539 456 1995 = 19 x 810240105
Again, move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart. Simple to understand, impossible to imitate.
As proven by the physical evidence above, such mathematical composition is far beyond human capabilities. The slightest violation of God's Final Testament is destined to stand out in glaring disharmony. As Nun said, move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart.
The above code would rule out human authorship because it is beyond our intelligence (keep in mind though that the bar for intelligence is set pretty low based on how easily the majority of people here are attracted and mesmerized by such ?codes? and accordingly believe in their significance and relevance as signs).
In summary, if such codes prove they are beyond us and our current level of earthly intelligence, then they must be made by some pretty dumb aliens.
http//www.freesmileys.org/smileys/alien011.gif
But seriously, people forget about codes and instead read and get a life. It is called the great reading and not the great counting for a reason. It is pathetic to see people whose belief in the great reading is so low that they are more in awe about such numerology than about anything that they ever read in it.
Peace,
Ayman
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AYMAN But seriously, people forget about codes and instead read and get a life. It is called the great reading and not the great counting for a reason. It is pathetic to see people whose belief in the great reading is so low that they are more in awe about such numerology than about anything that they ever read in it.
EDIP First, you are distorting the fact. You wish people think that we do not read and appreciate the Quran. To the contrary, we have risked our lives for the message of the Quran, the whole Quran! We appreciate every letter and word of the Quran. So, stop resorting to this cheap propaganda. Appreciation of the numerical structure and a great prophecy of the Quran does not and should not stop one from reading and following the Quran. To the contrary, such a great sign and prophecy compels us to take every letter of the Quran seriously.
Those who read the Quran will know that it mentions Nineteen in the context of its authenticity in a prophetic language. You read it but ignore it!
AYMAN How about those facts the number of letters in the great reading is not a multiple of 19 and the number of words in the great reading too is not a multiple of 19. In fact, I guarantee that for every 1 of the so called facts that you advertize there are 18 facts that are not multiples of 19. All you are doing is using mindless trial and error and touting successful trials while hiding failed trials. You know that what I am saying is true. If you disagree then please be honest and share your failed trials so that we can see the ratio.
EDP You are just making up. If you are not then tell us what are the number of letters and words in the Quran. Provide us with your evidence!
As brother Zidane eloquently put "- The ratio of trail and errors until finding of each 19 related fact doesn't show that the pattern is false in the same way that the ratio of Thomas Edison's trial and error doesn't show that Tungsten doesn't work - it worked perfectly and was a great discovery. It is still fact that there are patterns, same as the light bulb still emits light."
The Quran starts exactly with 19 letters, which we discovered after 18 of your trials!
It has exactly 114 chapters, which we discovered after 18 of your trials!
It talks about hypocrites who cannot understand the number 19, and we learned about it after 18 of your trials!
We discovered 19 in chapter 74 after 18 of your trials!
We learned that the chapter starts with the word al-Muddatthir, that is the Hidden One, just after 18 of your trials!
We also learned that the first complete statement of the same chapter has 19 letters, just after 18 of your trials!
We further learned that the numerical values of those 19 letters equals exactly to 1974, just after 18 of your trials!
We discovered that the juxtaposition of 19 and the chapter number 74 would exactly produce 1974, the time of the discovery, again after 18 of your trials!
We also discovered that multiplying 19 by the chapter number 74 would produce 1406 and that was exactly the number of lunar years between the year of revelation and 1974, again after 18 of your trials!
We also discovered that the root of the name of the discoverer, RaSHaDa, is mentioned exactly 19 times in the Quran, again after 18 of your trials!
We also learned that out of those 19 occurrences the form RaShaD is mentioned twice and they are separated by the only vers in the Quran rejecting the claims of disbelievers regarding finality of messengership. Again, we learned this after 18 of your trials!
We have learned hundreds of signs and Quranic facts, all after 18 of your trials!....I will not continue debating with you in detail here, since I have already exposed the problems with your argument numerous times in writing and they are posted at 19.org.
Back to the Quran being called Great Reading... You are again covering the whole truth, since the Quran has numerous attributes, one of them being ZIKR and the other being Kitabun Marqum, that is, Numerical Book.. In our upcoming oral debate, the falsehood will be exposed conclusively, by God's will. Wait, and we are too waiting. God is Sari-ul Hisab!
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Peace Edip,
AYMAN But seriously, people forget about codes and instead read and get a life. It is called the great reading and not the great counting for a reason. It is pathetic to see people whose belief in the great reading is so low that they are more in awe about such numerology than about anything that they ever read in it.
EDIP First, you are distorting the fact. You wish people think that we do not read and appreciate the Quran. To the contrary, we have risked our lives for the message of the Quran, the whole Quran! We appreciate every letter and word of the Quran. So, stop resorting to this cheap propaganda. Appreciation of the numerical structure and a great prophecy of the Quran does not and should not stop one from reading and following the Quran. To the contrary, such a great sign and prophecy compels us to take every letter of the Quran seriously.I didn't say that you didn't read the great reading and appreciated it. I said that you appreciate the code MORE. For someone who teaches logic, you should know the difference. I try to choose my words very carefully so you should also try to read them carefully.
In your response, YOU ACTUALLY CONFIRMED WHAT I SAID. You said that it is such codes that compel you to take every letter of the great reading seriously. So without such codes or based on reading alone you wouldn't take the great reading as seriously. So indeed you are confirming that you appreciate the code more than the reading.
Those who read the Quran will know that it mentions Nineteen in the context of its authenticity in a prophetic language. You read it but ignore it!
Come on Edip, where is your professional logic? The first time you read "Nineteen" did you know that it is in the context of the great reading's authenticity? Or did you come to this conclusion after countless trials and errors and the removal of 9128-129 and then building circular arguments?
AYMAN How about those facts the number of letters in the great reading is not a multiple of 19 and the number of words in the great reading too is not a multiple of 19. In fact, I guarantee that for every 1 of the so called facts that you advertize there are 18 facts that are not multiples of 19. All you are doing is using mindless trial and error and touting successful trials while hiding failed trials. You know that what I am saying is true. If you disagree then please be honest and share your failed trials so that we can see the ratio.
EDP You are just making up. If you are not then tell us what are the number of letters and words in the Quran. Provide us with your evidence!I don't have to provide anything. Since you are not advertizing those obvious trials then I know that RK, you or any of the Code 19 hunters have tried them and failed to get a 19 divisible. The same goes for the following trials, which I know you or RK tried but are mute about because they failed
Trial 1 Test if the number of words in Chapter 9 without the 2 verses is divisible by 19.
Trial 2 Test if the total number of letters in Chapter 9 without the 2 verses is divisible by 19.
Trial 3 Test if the count of the word GOD in Chapter 9 without the two verses is divisible by 19.
Trial 4 Test if the sum of all the verse numbers where the word GOD occurs in Chapter 9 without the two verses is divisible by 19.
Trial 5 Test if the count of the word "raheem" from the missing Basmalah (Sura 9) to the extra Basmalah (Sura 27) is divisible by 19.
etc... etc...If you add up all your failures and compare the number of your successes to your failures, you will see that the ratio is 118, which is the natural ratio of random occurrences of 19 multiples.
As brother Zidane eloquently put "- The ratio of trail and errors until finding of each 19 related fact doesn't show that the pattern is false in the same way that the ratio of Thomas Edison's trial and error doesn't show that Tungsten doesn't work - it worked perfectly and was a great discovery. It is still fact that there are patterns, same as the light bulb still emits light."
This is just a typical example of the kind of ignorance that leads people to be fascinated by such numerology. You can't use trial and error in pattern recognition problems without capturing the failed trials and comparing the ratio of success to failure to a specific benchmark. Also, Thomas Edison didn't use trial and error and then hid all his failed trials and claimed that he got a light bulb on the first trial. Also, he didn't really use trial and error. For instance, he didn't try to throw some tungsten at a fire and see if a light bulb would come out the other end. He only varied limited parameters within a systematic method. Also, once he got the successful trial, he went back to the method and refined it and made it repeatable. On the other hand, NONE of the methods of code 19 is repeatable and this is why RK never uses the same method twice. He got 19 divisibles not because there is a pattern but because he was constantly changing the method. He changed the method when he got failed trials using the same method.
The Quran starts exactly with 19 letters, which we discovered after 18 of your trials!
It has exactly 114 chapters, which we discovered after 18 of your trials!
It talks about hypocrites who cannot understand the number 19, and we learned about it after 18 of your trials!
We discovered 19 in chapter 74 after 18 of your trials!
We learned that the chapter starts with the word al-Muddatthir, that is the Hidden One, just after 18 of your trials!
We also learned that the first complete statement of the same chapter has 19 letters, just after 18 of your trials!
We further learned that the numerical values of those 19 letters equals exactly to 1974, just after 18 of your trials!
We discovered that the juxtaposition of 19 and the chapter number 74 would exactly produce 1974, the time of the discovery, again after 18 of your trials!
We also discovered that multiplying 19 by the chapter number 74 would produce 1406 and that was exactly the number of lunar years between the year of revelation and 1974, again after 18 of your trials!
We also discovered that the root of the name of the discoverer, RaSHaDa, is mentioned exactly 19 times in the Quran, again after 18 of your trials!
We also learned that out of those 19 occurrences the form RaShaD is mentioned twice and they are separated by the only vers in the Quran rejecting the claims of disbelievers regarding finality of messengership. Again, we learned this after 18 of your trials!
We have learned hundreds of signs and Quranic facts, all after 18 of your trials!....
I will not continue debating with you in detail here, since I have already exposed the problems with your argument numerous times in writing and they are posted at 19.org.Are you trying to say that RK and you NEVER had a SINGLE FAILED TRIAL? If so, then clearly, you are lying.
Back to the Quran being called Great Reading... You are again covering the whole truth, since the Quran has numerous attributes, one of them being ZIKR and the other being Kitabun Marqum, that is, Numerical Book.. In our upcoming oral debate, the falsehood will be exposed conclusively, by God's will. Wait, and we are too waiting. God is Sari-ul Hisab!
I look forward to it. )
Peace,
Ayman
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@ Supernaut
peace,There is zero evidence that aliens sent us the reading. Only Raelians and pseudo-archaeologists think there's evidence that aliens made the universe and gave us our religions.
Yes but there's zero evidence that they didn't. And here we're only going by what the CODE tells us. Nothing else.
I think the orderliness and the perfection in the laws of nature preclude the possibility of there being more than one god.
Maybe. But again that is reflecting on the world and it's signs, not the code.
I know I am, and I believe I'm making an educated and intelligent assumption.
It's actually not that much of an assumption because you are basing that on what you've seen in the world and from what you've read in the book. If let's say you lose all your senses of perception but somehow can still see the code, you cannot logically reach that conclusion.
My point is that the conclusion you are reaching about the Quran being written by God is completely independent of the code. The code has nothing to do with your belief.
We know that the code BY ITSELF has no meaning or purpose. It's like a 0.
Having the code around is like adding 0 to something. You're not adding anything at all.Now my belief of the Quran is that it wasn't written by God, and I don't think it even claims that. I think it claims that it was inspired by God. It says that all truth comes from god, which means all truth is divine. As you said, humans are capable of writing the truth so humans are certainly capable of creating something divine.
It's just like the divine attributes. God is all-knowing, all-merciful etc. We can all exhibit those divine qualities. We can gain knowledge, we can have mercy. We can also create a message with truth in it.
There is nothing supernatural about this book. It's just a book. We're supposed to read it and get whatever we can out of it.What God HAS written is the universe. The books are written by men. The books help us because they spare us the difficulty of figuring things out by ourselves and instills good values within us. But we can skip the books if we want and go straight to the source - God's creation. Like Abraham did. We can go through trial and error like him and figure out the truth.
The truth is only useful when we understand it and we can use it. The code doesn't help us do any of that. In my view of things there is no need to look for such a code.
And I use the term "god" loosely because I'm not sure what God is or if there even is a God. -
Peace Ayman,
Why do you knowlying post deception such as above?
Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd
1..........75..........76..........76..........
2..........1024..........1026..........1026..........
3..........390..........393....................393
4..........2..........6..........6..........
5..........52..........57....................57
6..........51..........57....................57
7..........402..........409....................409
8..........5..........13....................13
9..........29..........38..........38..........
10..........9..........19....................19
11..........9..........20..........20..........
12..........135..........147....................147
13..........215..........228..........228..........
14..........4..........18..........18..........
15..........23..........38..........38..........
16..........20..........36..........36..........
17..........21..........38..........38..........
18..........10..........28..........28..........
19..........76..........95....................95
20..........177..........197....................197
21..........36..........57....................57
22..........28..........50..........50..........
23..........110..........133....................133
24..........10..........34..........34..........
25..........7..........32..........32..........
26..........443..........469....................469
27..........107..........134..........134..........
28..........104..........132..........132..........
29..........69..........98..........98..........
30..........58..........88..........88..........
31..........2..........33....................33
32..........18..........50..........50..........
33..........63..........96..........96..........
34..........80..........114..........114..........
35..........25..........60..........60..........
36..........21..........57....................57
37..........86..........123....................123
38..........76..........114..........114..........
39..........81..........120..........120..........
40..........95..........135....................135
41..........62..........103....................103
42..........33..........75....................75
43..........55..........98..........98..........
44..........3..........47....................47
45..........71..........116..........116..........
46..........85..........131....................131
47..........46..........93....................93
48..........9..........57....................57
49..........8..........57....................57
50..........37..........87....................87
51..........64..........115....................115
52..........65..........117....................117
53..........80..........133....................133
54..........17..........71....................71
55..........96..........151....................151
56..........68..........124..........124..........
57..........57..........114..........114..........1-57...................6757.....3126......3631 <--------1st checksum 1st half
6757 3126 3631 = 19 x 35564803349By changing chapter 9 to have only 29 verses...
Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd
1............7............8............8...........
2..........286..........288..........288...........
3..........200..........203.....................203
4..........176..........180..........180...........
5..........120..........125.....................125
6..........165..........171.....................171
7..........206..........213.....................213
8...........75...........83......................83
9..........29..........38..........38...........
10.........109..........119.....................119
11.........123..........134..........134...........
12.........111..........123.....................123
13..........43...........56...........56...........
14..........52...........66...........66...........
15..........99..........114..........114...........
16.........128..........144..........144...........
17.........111..........128..........128...........
18.........110..........128..........128...........
19..........98..........117.....................117
20.........135..........155.....................155
21.........112..........133.....................133
22..........78..........100..........100...........
23.........118..........141.....................141
24..........64...........88...........88...........
25..........77..........102..........102...........
26.........227..........253.....................253
27..........93..........120..........120...........
28..........88..........116..........116...........
29..........69...........98...........98...........
30..........60...........90...........90...........
31..........34...........65......................65
32..........30...........62...........62..........
33..........73..........106..........106..........
34..........54...........88...........88..........
35..........45...........80...........80..........
36..........83..........119.....................119
37.........182..........219.....................219
38..........88..........126..........126...........
39..........75..........114..........114..........
40..........85..........125.....................125
41..........54...........95......................95
42..........53...........95......................95
43..........89..........132..........132...........
44..........59..........103.....................103
45..........37...........82...........82...........
46..........35...........81......................81
47..........38...........85......................85
48..........29...........77......................77
49..........18...........67......................67
50..........45...........95......................95
51..........60..........111.....................111
52..........49..........101.....................101
53..........62..........115.....................115
54..........55..........109.....................109
55..........78..........133.....................133
56..........96..........152..........152...........
57..........29...........86...........86...........1-57...................6657.....3026......3631 <--------1st checksum 1st half
6657 3026 3631 IS NOT divisible by 19 with remainder = 18
Neither are
6657 3631 3026
3631 3026 6657
3631 6657 3026
3026 3631 6657
3026 6657 3631Although I'm sure you knew that already.
Peace
-
Peace,
Yes but there's zero evidence that they didn't.
That is a logical fallacy.
And here we're only going by what the CODE tells us. Nothing else.
I agree that a code in a book that had nonsense in it would be meaningless, but if the reading - which I have faith is a lucid scripture - had a code, the code would be meaningful.
Maybe. But again that is reflecting on the world and it's signs, not the code.
True.
It's actually not that much of an assumption because you are basing that on what you've seen in the world and from what you've read in the book. If let's say you lose all your senses of perception but somehow can still see the code, you cannot logically reach that conclusion.
That is true, but a creature that could appreciate the signs in the universe and conclude that a god exists from them would also be able to appreciate a code in the reading if such a code existed.
My point is that the conclusion you are reaching about the Quran being written by God is completely independent of the code. The code has nothing to do with your belief.
Well it did before because it impressed me. Anyway, lets assume the reading did have a superhuman code. Such a code would help some people believe because these people would see the complexity and inimitability of it as evidence of divine authorship.
We know that the code BY ITSELF has no meaning or purpose. It's like a 0.
Having the code around is like adding 0 to something. You're not adding anything at all.I think a superhuman code in the reading would be part and parcel of it. It wouldn't exist independent of the reading because then it wouldn't be the reading's code.
Now my belief of the Quran is that it wasn't written by God, and I don't think it even claims that.
No, I think it does (1037, 482, 299, 33, 2110 and many, many more verses). However, the deity didn't write the reading (67), the way it engraved the Torah on tablets (7144-145), and I think the reason why the deity wrote the Torah down for Moses and Aaron and their people is that they didn't have the time or resources to write it down themselves, while Mohamed and his followers did.
I think it claims that it was inspired by God. It says that all truth comes from god, which means all truth is divine.
The deity tells us that It "sent down" the reading, but that It didn't write it down. It was Gabriel who transmitted the reading to Mohamed by the deity's permission (16102).
As you said, humans are capable of writing the truth so humans are certainly capable of creating something divine.
Something divine would have to be entirely free of contradictions and nonsense, and I have faith the reading is. The deity tells us the reading has no contradictions in it in 482.
It's just like the divine attributes. God is all-knowing, all-merciful etc. We can all exhibit those divine qualities.
Be all-knowing, the most merciful and the ever merciful? We can only come close to knowing everything and it'd be very exhausting to be all-merciful all the time. We're humans. Our knowledge is limited and we lose our tempers very often.
We can gain knowledge, we can have mercy. We can also create a message with truth in it.
Yes, but the deity's better at being merciful and creating good messages (I just imagined the deity typing a mobile phone text message P) and the deity knows everything.
There is nothing supernatural about this book. It's just a book. We're supposed to read it and get whatever we can out of it.
No, but I have faith that it doesn't have contradictions in it and that it's free of errors. That's not typical of books written by humans. Also, some of its content couldn't have been written during Mohamed's time.
What God HAS written is the universe. The books are written by men.
But sent down by the deity.
The books help us because they spare us the difficulty of figuring things out by ourselves and instills good values within us. But we can skip the books if we want and go straight to the source - God's creation. Like Abraham did. We can go through trial and error like him and figure out the truth.
I agree.
The truth is only useful when we understand it and we can use it. The code doesn't help us do any of that. In my view of things there is no need to look for such a code.
But a code would help us accept the truth.
-
Peace Nun,
Why do you knowlying post deception such as above?
Hey, all I did was use your nonsensical Checksum method. You knowingly posted your deception first. At least I made it clear that I was joking.
By changing chapter 9 to have only 29 verses...
But I didn't only change Chapter 9. I changed all chapters and still got the same exact Checksum as you did. Just paste my calculations in Excel or something. In fact, you don't even need to do that. Just take out 100 verses from Chapter 9 and add them to any other even chapter such as Chapter 11. So now Chapter 9 has 29 verses while Chapter 11 has 223 new verses and your Checksum is EXACTLY the same.
Here, I will use your table below
Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd
1............7............8............8...........
2..........286..........288..........288...........
3..........200..........203.....................203
4..........176..........180..........180...........
5..........120..........125.....................125
6..........165..........171.....................171
7..........206..........213.....................213
8...........75...........83......................83
9..........29..........38..........38...........
10.........109..........119.....................119
11.........223..........234..........234...........
12.........111..........123.....................123
13..........43...........56...........56...........
14..........52...........66...........66...........
15..........99..........114..........114...........
16.........128..........144..........144...........
17.........111..........128..........128...........
18.........110..........128..........128...........
19..........98..........117.....................117
20.........135..........155.....................155
21.........112..........133.....................133
22..........78..........100..........100...........
23.........118..........141.....................141
24..........64...........88...........88...........
25..........77..........102..........102...........
26.........227..........253.....................253
27..........93..........120..........120...........
28..........88..........116..........116...........
29..........69...........98...........98...........
30..........60...........90...........90...........
31..........34...........65......................65
32..........30...........62...........62..........
33..........73..........106..........106..........
34..........54...........88...........88..........
35..........45...........80...........80..........
36..........83..........119.....................119
37.........182..........219.....................219
38..........88..........126..........126...........
39..........75..........114..........114..........
40..........85..........125.....................125
41..........54...........95......................95
42..........53...........95......................95
43..........89..........132..........132...........
44..........59..........103.....................103
45..........37...........82...........82...........
46..........35...........81......................81
47..........38...........85......................85
48..........29...........77......................77
49..........18...........67......................67
50..........45...........95......................95
51..........60..........111.....................111
52..........49..........101.....................101
53..........62..........115.....................115
54..........55..........109.....................109
55..........78..........133.....................133
56..........96..........152..........152...........
57..........29...........86...........86...........1-57...................6757.....3126......3631 <--------1st checksum 1st half
6757 3126 3631 IS divisible by 19 with remainder = 0Because the 100 real verses taken out from Chapter 9 is compensated by the new 100 false verses added to chapter 11, we have the same exact Checksum. In fact, you can mess up ALL the chapters of the great reading this way and not just two chapters and in the process achieve a more symmetric, powerful and impressive Code 19 as I easily demonstrated in about 10 minutes.
If you were not joking then your statement "even/odd or binary (0/1) structure cannot be replicated by man or machine -- move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart" is not just false, it is probably the dumbest thing I heard on the subject of Code 19 (and believe me, over the years, I heard lots of dumb things on this subject). I hope that you were joking or this was a momentary lapse of reason and you will humbly see the truth and not continue down this slippery slope. I am sorry to be so hard on you but this is so obvious that at this stage you are really in no position to argue.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Supernaut
I never make logical fallacies. Never!
As long as you don't know who sent something to you, you have a host of possible senders. Aliens could be one of them. That's what I meant.
Anyway that's not important anymore...So what I understand of what you're saying is that the code depends on the scripture being true. So first you have to BELIEVE in it, and then the code is there just in case your faith wavers a bit.
But here's the thing, if you verify something, and KNOW it beyond doubt to be true, then you don't need a code anymore. In fact needing a code to believe in the truth of something means that your belief isn't 100%, that there is doubt.
There is no room for doubt. You either know something or you don't. If you know, then there's no point to the code. I know the sky is blue. Now a code telling me that that statement is true wouldn't add anything.I have a feeling that people are using this code to fill up the empty spaces, the holes in their faith. Those holes shouldn't be there.
No, but I have faith that it doesn't have contradictions in it and that it's free of errors. That's not typical of books written by humans. Also, some of its content couldn't have been written during Mohamed's time.
I believe the quran does have some errors. And I really don't buy the "couldn't have been written during Muhammad's time" because we don't know how much knowledge those people did or didn't have. In fact I think ancient people knew far more than people today believe they did.
Well it did before because it impressed me. Anyway, lets assume the reading did have a superhuman code. Such a code would help some people believe because these people would see the complexity and inimitability of it as evidence of divine authorship.
If something is true, then it's true. The truth is clear from falsehood, isn't it? If it's not true, then the only other option is that it must be false. You should have complete faith in the truth and you should completely reject falsehood. It doesn't matter where the truth comes from or whether it comes with a free code. You either know something or you don't know. It's like an on and off switch. ! sort of like that. A code can't make the truth truther.
Be all-knowing, the most merciful and the ever merciful? We can only come close to knowing everything and it'd be very exhausting to be all-merciful all the time. We're humans. Our knowledge is limited and we lose our tempers very often.
Yes. We can never be perfect. God is like a perfect ideal that we can all aspire to but can never reach. It's like a limit (if you're a calculus nerd).
the quran I believe is written by men because even if it doesn't have contradictions, it certainly has flaws. -
Peace Lobster,
So what I understand of what you're saying is that the code depends on the scripture being true. So first you have to BELIEVE in it, and then the code is there just in case your faith wavers a bit.
But here's the thing, if you verify something, and KNOW it beyond doubt to be true, then you don't need a code anymore. In fact needing a code to believe in the truth of something means that your belief isn't 100%, that there is doubt.Believers are humans so their faith does waver. Even the reading acknowledges that believers do become unsure of their faith (2260 and 2214). It's unreasonable to claim that a believer's faith will always be 100% sure.
There is no room for doubt. You either know something or you don't. If you know, then there's no point to the code. I know the sky is blue. Now a code telling me that that statement is true wouldn't add anything.
Yes, but what if you had reason, albeit not so good, to doubt what you were very sure of? You can't deny that every intelligent and sceptical human does doubt what they believe in from time to time. Only when we doubt what we know and question our faith do we actually learn more about it and develop a better understanding of what we already know about it.
I have a feeling that people are using this code to fill up the empty spaces, the holes in their faith.
Or they could just be using it to augment their faith.
Those holes shouldn't be there.I believe the quran does have some errors. And I really don't buy the "couldn't have been written during Muhammad's time" because we don't know how much knowledge those people did or didn't have.
We can have a very good estimate judging by what they left behind, and what the civilizations that preceded them left them. I believe that the Arabs might've known that the earth was round but they couldn't have known that the universe began as a tiny singularity that is expanding until the reading told them this in 2130 and 5147.
In fact I think ancient people knew far more than people today believe they did.
I agree.
If something is true, then it's true. The truth is clear from falsehood, isn't it? If it's not true, then the only other option is that it must be false.
Our belief in something and our doubts in that belief have zero bearing on the reality of that thing. Suppose I doubted that the sky is blue, now my doubt in my belief that the sky is blue wouldn't mean that the sky isn't blue.
You should have complete faith in the truth and you should completely reject falsehood.
Well I pray I reach such a stage in an intelligent way. Many people believe in things because they suppress their reason. Sunnis and Shias assuage their doubts with obsessive-compulsive rituals, but a true muslim would clear away most of their doubts by learning, and because it's not possible to learn everything, a true muslim would always strive to improve their understanding by learning more.
It doesn't matter where the truth comes from or whether it comes with a free code. You either know something or you don't know. It's like an on and off switch. ! sort of like that. A code can't make the truth truther.
I'm sorry, but I think that's a very simplistic thing to say. Humans are certainly not like on and off switches; they are far more complex.
Yes. We can never be perfect. God is like a perfect ideal that we can all aspire to but can never reach. It's like a limit (if you're a calculus nerd).
the quran I believe is written by men because even if it doesn't have contradictions, it certainly has flaws.I have faith (blind faith so far) that the reading has no flaws in it. I pray I'll be able to replace blind faith with something much better in the future.
-
There is no room for doubt. You either know something or you don't. If you know, then there's no point to the code. I know the sky is blue. Now a code telling me that that statement is true wouldn't add anything.
Peace.
3 seconds more then your post time was 191919
The sky is visible but Creator is invisible.
If you show me a sign of such invisible creator like apple falling from tree is a sign for existence of invisible gravity.
All religions claiming heir book is the divine one and none of them can show a proof for it. But now we have proof for divinity of Quran GR by code 19. Simple to understand-impossible to imitate.
If you can imitate one of the simple one like this then I would like to hear more from you.
Peace. -
Peace Supernaut,
Believers are humans so their faith does waver. Even the reading acknowledges that believers do become unsure of their faith (2260 and 2214). It's unreasonable to claim that a believer's faith will always be 100% sure.
Okay I'll concede that we can't always be 100% sure. We do have doubts from time to time and it is great to question our beliefs, obviously.
Or they could just be using it to augment their faith.
Okay, but their faith in what? We should believe in the truth because it is true. Not because there is a code.
There is a difference between having faith in the truth and having faith in a book that's supposed to be true. In the end if the message is true, then we should believe in it. Regardless of the code.
And the fact of life is that we have to see to believe. You can't believe without seeing. If you do there will always be doubt. A code can never be a substitute for verification through direct observation.
I don't know. Maybe a code might help some people. But I still think it's an unnecessary crutch that distracts from the message.We can have a very good estimate judging by what they left behind, and what the civilizations that preceded them left them. I believe that the Arabs might've known that the earth was round but they couldn't have known that the universe began as a tiny singularity that is expanding until the reading told them this in 2130 and 5147.
Maybe. But I don't think that's what the reading means by those verses. Usually the simplest explanation is the best one. The interpretation that those verses are talking about the big bang because god wrote this book and he put that information in there as a sign is an too complex of an explanation. A simpler explanation would just be that those verses are metaphorical.
I'm sorry, but I think that's a very simplistic thing to say. Humans are certainly not like on and off switches; they are far more complex.
I didn't mean humans are like on and off switches. I meant truth and falsehood is. There's no middle ground. We need to use our powers of observations to figure out which is which.
I have faith (blind faith so far) that the reading has no flaws in it. I pray I'll be able to replace blind faith with something much better in the future.
I think it's good that you know that you have blind faith and you are striving for something better. You're probably afraid that you might not be able to get rid of that blind faith so maybe you want there to be a code which would solve that problem?
I was in the same boat you are but then I realized that I can't keep believing blindly. I had doubts about the quran but I kept ignoring them. But then I thought what the heck why don't I just conclude for now that it's wrong because that's the best understanding I have. If later I learn something new I will change my beliefs.
I was just afraid of disbelieving in the quran. And also because it was one thing in my beliefs that was reliable, and I didn't want to lose that.
But then I realized that the quran's not the only path to God. I can do without it. There are so many different translations, so many different interpretations that I just feel it's no longer worth it for me. I would have to spend years and years trying to understand which way to interpret a single word.
I've decided to take Abraham's way and figure things out on my own. I've been pretty decent at it so far. And there are always people who help you along the way. And sometimes you learn something new and you think, I've read that in the quran somewhere.I was reading Daniel Dennett's (an atheist) book about free will. And it made me think that you can't look back at an event and think, I wish things had turned out differently, because you don't know what might've happened. I was in an accident earlier this year. And I can't wish that it didn't happen because for all I know I could've gotten into a worse crash down the road. And that reminded me of a particular story in the quran. The one with Moses.
I think the quran's poetry. There's a lot of metaphors in it. You don't really understand it unless you've experienced what it's talking about. That's why I think the quran's probably been altered because some parts just don't sound like that.
Like I used to have no idea what love songs were about when I was a kid, but then you experience it and you understand what they mean.Anyway, if you think the code might help you, then you should listen to Ayman and Edip's debate and see if it really does exist. My take on it is that it doesn't. But you should read what the experts have to say.
-
Peace.
3 seconds more then your post time was 191919 )
The sky is visible but Creator is invisible.
If you show me a sign of such invisible creator like apple falling from tree is a sign for existence of invisible gravity.
All religions claiming heir book is the divine one and none of them can show a proof for it. But now we have proof for divinity of Quran GR by code 19. Simple to understand-impossible to imitate.
If you can imitate one of the simple one like this then I would like to hear more from you.
Peace.Peace Bahman,
I don't understand why you pick one sentence out of all I've written and respond to just that. I'd like you to address my whole argument like Supernaut has been patiently doing.I also don't understand the obsession with "divinity." Honestly I don't care about that. If a teaching is true I follow it, if it's not I discard it. It's that simple. I don't get why you have to make it so complicated.
The quran's divinity doesn't help me with anything. The truth does. So I'll look for the truth, and you can keep looking for the divinity. Whatever that is.
-
AYMAN Because the 100 real verses taken out from Chapter 9 is compensated by the new 100 false verses added to chapter 11, we have the same exact Checksum. In fact, you can mess up ALL the chapters of the great reading this way and not just two chapters and in the process achieve a more symmetric, powerful and impressive Code 19 as I easily demonstrated in about 10 minutes.
EDIP I have not yet many of the discussions on this thread, including yuors. I just noticed your assertion above. None claimed that the symetry in relation to the number of chapters with odd and even verses alone was safeguarding the verses of the chapters.
However, you missed the point. If you wished to challenge this observation, you should have tried randomly changing the numbers, not deliberately changing them. Since, code 19 of the Quran was not known before 1974, the changes made in the number of verses by those who lived before 1974 would most likely destroy this symmetry.
Peace,
Edip -
Peace Bahman,
I don't understand why you pick one sentence out of all I've written and respond to just that. I'd like you to address my whole argument like Supernaut has been patiently doing.I also don't understand the obsession with "divinity." Honestly I don't care about that. If a teaching is true I follow it, if it's not I discard it. It's that simple. I don't get why you have to make it so complicated.
The quran's divinity doesn't help me with anything. The truth does. So I'll look for the truth, and you can keep looking for the divinity. Whatever that is.
Peace
I would like to make simple and short . Time is precious
Do you believe in existence of superhuman as creator ?
Peace -
-
Peace
I would like to make simple and short . Time is precious )
Do you believe in existence of superhuman as creator ?
PeacePeace Bahman,
what is a superhuman?I'm don't believe there is a god the way religions describe. There might be an intelligent creator, but I don't think there is much evidence of that.
But there are much much better ways for this creator to convince of its existence than a numerological pattern. -
Peace Bahman,
what is a superhuman?
I'm don't believe there is a god the way religions describe. There might be an intelligent creator, but I don't think there is much evidence of that.Peace
That is exactly I was believing prior to 10 years ago.
expecting an evidence , proof, sign. Some how Creator, Superhuman. God, Lord, Jesus, Allah, GD ?????????????
to show his existence by an evidence. Like Moses stock, opening sea .jesus miracles,???????????..
But none of those could persuade me when we have all kind of knowledge, tools, to be truth when I am not there like Moon landing , as is claimed was movie right or wrong evidence like this can not be claimed as we can produce better miracle on this screen than what we read in book scientifically.
With such belief and a incident caused I do my search now on this screen late 1997.
I reached the site claiming that have proof for existence of God and his sign , evidence for this era generation knowing how to use this screen that can do their own search and examination in their kitchen and test it without any help from any body.
What is most important field of knowledge in past and present and future is knowledge of numbers which transforms to many subfields like arithmetic, mathematic, geometry, trigonometry????..
Our life without number is no possible in this era, we are attached to numbers everywhere. What better Miracle ( evidence) using these simple numbers 1-9 .
I bet that there is no one there on this screen do not know how to do 4 arithmatic functions +-/*I was one of those that do not posses high mathematic knowledge but enough to understand when Rashad says he discovered
First chapter of GR has seven verses , when we write chapter 1 followed by 1234567
It is multiple of 19.
My response in my mind was BS any book with 7 numbered phrases can have same arrangement.
But my second taught was , Oh look , look closely, watch what you in that pattern.
Every 19 number adding or deducting can make another one.
Say if we add 19 the new pattern would be multiple of 19
1234586
but the pattern for 7 verses disappears
the I said how if I relocate numbers . Oh that is stupid to do as son I relocate the number then no more normal sequence 1234567
This 7 was stamped in my brain and all time I was thinking what message is there that first chapter has been chosen 7
Took while until I search and found many 7 in GR.
You can read rest here and I would be happy if you can produce one like that.
If you need more explanation please do not hesitate
Peace. -
Peace,
16125 Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them (jidal) in ways that are best and most gracious for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. [/quote}
In seeing the word hajj as debate it will always be a jidaal. hajj is a logical debate, jidaal can be a logical or an illogical debate, a gracious or an ungracious one. Any debate will always be a jidaal. That is why i don't believe that the hajj we make is a debate in any fashion.
I most likely will not be privy to this discussion unless it is uploaded to youtube. In that case I will listen to it unless if find it distasteful or irrelevant as a whole. I'm not into these debates where people anxiously wait for one or the other to be logical crushed and defeated. I don't even know why it gets to this point. If this is a mutual discussion then that is fine. But a debate is completely unncessary. Despite that i hope it is fruitful. I just hope this is not a climb for leadership of a large portion of Free-mind Quranites. That would be unfortunate, although it might be inevitable as people rarely come together on the principles of cooperation, comprehension, mutual consultation and mutual progress. Rather it seems that mankind has this vile, instinctive side that follows behind the strong horse and loves rebellious spirit and fanciful man-made innovations.
Anyway, I won't be too negative. I don't expect much but may God bless you both and lead your towards some progress on this issue for the sake of all 19er's, Khalifite submitters' and all Quran-centered Muslims.
Godbless,
Anwar