Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
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Peace Lobster,
So what I understand of what you're saying is that the code depends on the scripture being true. So first you have to BELIEVE in it, and then the code is there just in case your faith wavers a bit.
But here's the thing, if you verify something, and KNOW it beyond doubt to be true, then you don't need a code anymore. In fact needing a code to believe in the truth of something means that your belief isn't 100%, that there is doubt.Believers are humans so their faith does waver. Even the reading acknowledges that believers do become unsure of their faith (2260 and 2214). It's unreasonable to claim that a believer's faith will always be 100% sure.
There is no room for doubt. You either know something or you don't. If you know, then there's no point to the code. I know the sky is blue. Now a code telling me that that statement is true wouldn't add anything.
Yes, but what if you had reason, albeit not so good, to doubt what you were very sure of? You can't deny that every intelligent and sceptical human does doubt what they believe in from time to time. Only when we doubt what we know and question our faith do we actually learn more about it and develop a better understanding of what we already know about it.
I have a feeling that people are using this code to fill up the empty spaces, the holes in their faith.
Or they could just be using it to augment their faith.
Those holes shouldn't be there.I believe the quran does have some errors. And I really don't buy the "couldn't have been written during Muhammad's time" because we don't know how much knowledge those people did or didn't have.
We can have a very good estimate judging by what they left behind, and what the civilizations that preceded them left them. I believe that the Arabs might've known that the earth was round but they couldn't have known that the universe began as a tiny singularity that is expanding until the reading told them this in 2130 and 5147.
In fact I think ancient people knew far more than people today believe they did.
I agree.
If something is true, then it's true. The truth is clear from falsehood, isn't it? If it's not true, then the only other option is that it must be false.
Our belief in something and our doubts in that belief have zero bearing on the reality of that thing. Suppose I doubted that the sky is blue, now my doubt in my belief that the sky is blue wouldn't mean that the sky isn't blue.
You should have complete faith in the truth and you should completely reject falsehood.
Well I pray I reach such a stage in an intelligent way. Many people believe in things because they suppress their reason. Sunnis and Shias assuage their doubts with obsessive-compulsive rituals, but a true muslim would clear away most of their doubts by learning, and because it's not possible to learn everything, a true muslim would always strive to improve their understanding by learning more.
It doesn't matter where the truth comes from or whether it comes with a free code. You either know something or you don't know. It's like an on and off switch. ! sort of like that. A code can't make the truth truther.
I'm sorry, but I think that's a very simplistic thing to say. Humans are certainly not like on and off switches; they are far more complex.
Yes. We can never be perfect. God is like a perfect ideal that we can all aspire to but can never reach. It's like a limit (if you're a calculus nerd).
the quran I believe is written by men because even if it doesn't have contradictions, it certainly has flaws.I have faith (blind faith so far) that the reading has no flaws in it. I pray I'll be able to replace blind faith with something much better in the future.
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There is no room for doubt. You either know something or you don't. If you know, then there's no point to the code. I know the sky is blue. Now a code telling me that that statement is true wouldn't add anything.
Peace.
3 seconds more then your post time was 191919
The sky is visible but Creator is invisible.
If you show me a sign of such invisible creator like apple falling from tree is a sign for existence of invisible gravity.
All religions claiming heir book is the divine one and none of them can show a proof for it. But now we have proof for divinity of Quran GR by code 19. Simple to understand-impossible to imitate.
If you can imitate one of the simple one like this then I would like to hear more from you.
Peace. -
Peace Supernaut,
Believers are humans so their faith does waver. Even the reading acknowledges that believers do become unsure of their faith (2260 and 2214). It's unreasonable to claim that a believer's faith will always be 100% sure.
Okay I'll concede that we can't always be 100% sure. We do have doubts from time to time and it is great to question our beliefs, obviously.
Or they could just be using it to augment their faith.
Okay, but their faith in what? We should believe in the truth because it is true. Not because there is a code.
There is a difference between having faith in the truth and having faith in a book that's supposed to be true. In the end if the message is true, then we should believe in it. Regardless of the code.
And the fact of life is that we have to see to believe. You can't believe without seeing. If you do there will always be doubt. A code can never be a substitute for verification through direct observation.
I don't know. Maybe a code might help some people. But I still think it's an unnecessary crutch that distracts from the message.We can have a very good estimate judging by what they left behind, and what the civilizations that preceded them left them. I believe that the Arabs might've known that the earth was round but they couldn't have known that the universe began as a tiny singularity that is expanding until the reading told them this in 2130 and 5147.
Maybe. But I don't think that's what the reading means by those verses. Usually the simplest explanation is the best one. The interpretation that those verses are talking about the big bang because god wrote this book and he put that information in there as a sign is an too complex of an explanation. A simpler explanation would just be that those verses are metaphorical.
I'm sorry, but I think that's a very simplistic thing to say. Humans are certainly not like on and off switches; they are far more complex.
I didn't mean humans are like on and off switches. I meant truth and falsehood is. There's no middle ground. We need to use our powers of observations to figure out which is which.
I have faith (blind faith so far) that the reading has no flaws in it. I pray I'll be able to replace blind faith with something much better in the future.
I think it's good that you know that you have blind faith and you are striving for something better. You're probably afraid that you might not be able to get rid of that blind faith so maybe you want there to be a code which would solve that problem?
I was in the same boat you are but then I realized that I can't keep believing blindly. I had doubts about the quran but I kept ignoring them. But then I thought what the heck why don't I just conclude for now that it's wrong because that's the best understanding I have. If later I learn something new I will change my beliefs.
I was just afraid of disbelieving in the quran. And also because it was one thing in my beliefs that was reliable, and I didn't want to lose that.
But then I realized that the quran's not the only path to God. I can do without it. There are so many different translations, so many different interpretations that I just feel it's no longer worth it for me. I would have to spend years and years trying to understand which way to interpret a single word.
I've decided to take Abraham's way and figure things out on my own. I've been pretty decent at it so far. And there are always people who help you along the way. And sometimes you learn something new and you think, I've read that in the quran somewhere.I was reading Daniel Dennett's (an atheist) book about free will. And it made me think that you can't look back at an event and think, I wish things had turned out differently, because you don't know what might've happened. I was in an accident earlier this year. And I can't wish that it didn't happen because for all I know I could've gotten into a worse crash down the road. And that reminded me of a particular story in the quran. The one with Moses.
I think the quran's poetry. There's a lot of metaphors in it. You don't really understand it unless you've experienced what it's talking about. That's why I think the quran's probably been altered because some parts just don't sound like that.
Like I used to have no idea what love songs were about when I was a kid, but then you experience it and you understand what they mean.Anyway, if you think the code might help you, then you should listen to Ayman and Edip's debate and see if it really does exist. My take on it is that it doesn't. But you should read what the experts have to say.
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Peace.
3 seconds more then your post time was 191919 )
The sky is visible but Creator is invisible.
If you show me a sign of such invisible creator like apple falling from tree is a sign for existence of invisible gravity.
All religions claiming heir book is the divine one and none of them can show a proof for it. But now we have proof for divinity of Quran GR by code 19. Simple to understand-impossible to imitate.
If you can imitate one of the simple one like this then I would like to hear more from you.
Peace.Peace Bahman,
I don't understand why you pick one sentence out of all I've written and respond to just that. I'd like you to address my whole argument like Supernaut has been patiently doing.I also don't understand the obsession with "divinity." Honestly I don't care about that. If a teaching is true I follow it, if it's not I discard it. It's that simple. I don't get why you have to make it so complicated.
The quran's divinity doesn't help me with anything. The truth does. So I'll look for the truth, and you can keep looking for the divinity. Whatever that is.
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AYMAN Because the 100 real verses taken out from Chapter 9 is compensated by the new 100 false verses added to chapter 11, we have the same exact Checksum. In fact, you can mess up ALL the chapters of the great reading this way and not just two chapters and in the process achieve a more symmetric, powerful and impressive Code 19 as I easily demonstrated in about 10 minutes.
EDIP I have not yet many of the discussions on this thread, including yuors. I just noticed your assertion above. None claimed that the symetry in relation to the number of chapters with odd and even verses alone was safeguarding the verses of the chapters.
However, you missed the point. If you wished to challenge this observation, you should have tried randomly changing the numbers, not deliberately changing them. Since, code 19 of the Quran was not known before 1974, the changes made in the number of verses by those who lived before 1974 would most likely destroy this symmetry.
Peace,
Edip -
Peace Bahman,
I don't understand why you pick one sentence out of all I've written and respond to just that. I'd like you to address my whole argument like Supernaut has been patiently doing.I also don't understand the obsession with "divinity." Honestly I don't care about that. If a teaching is true I follow it, if it's not I discard it. It's that simple. I don't get why you have to make it so complicated.
The quran's divinity doesn't help me with anything. The truth does. So I'll look for the truth, and you can keep looking for the divinity. Whatever that is.
Peace
I would like to make simple and short . Time is precious
Do you believe in existence of superhuman as creator ?
Peace -
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Peace
I would like to make simple and short . Time is precious )
Do you believe in existence of superhuman as creator ?
PeacePeace Bahman,
what is a superhuman?I'm don't believe there is a god the way religions describe. There might be an intelligent creator, but I don't think there is much evidence of that.
But there are much much better ways for this creator to convince of its existence than a numerological pattern. -
Peace Bahman,
what is a superhuman?
I'm don't believe there is a god the way religions describe. There might be an intelligent creator, but I don't think there is much evidence of that.Peace
That is exactly I was believing prior to 10 years ago.
expecting an evidence , proof, sign. Some how Creator, Superhuman. God, Lord, Jesus, Allah, GD ?????????????
to show his existence by an evidence. Like Moses stock, opening sea .jesus miracles,???????????..
But none of those could persuade me when we have all kind of knowledge, tools, to be truth when I am not there like Moon landing , as is claimed was movie right or wrong evidence like this can not be claimed as we can produce better miracle on this screen than what we read in book scientifically.
With such belief and a incident caused I do my search now on this screen late 1997.
I reached the site claiming that have proof for existence of God and his sign , evidence for this era generation knowing how to use this screen that can do their own search and examination in their kitchen and test it without any help from any body.
What is most important field of knowledge in past and present and future is knowledge of numbers which transforms to many subfields like arithmetic, mathematic, geometry, trigonometry????..
Our life without number is no possible in this era, we are attached to numbers everywhere. What better Miracle ( evidence) using these simple numbers 1-9 .
I bet that there is no one there on this screen do not know how to do 4 arithmatic functions +-/*I was one of those that do not posses high mathematic knowledge but enough to understand when Rashad says he discovered
First chapter of GR has seven verses , when we write chapter 1 followed by 1234567
It is multiple of 19.
My response in my mind was BS any book with 7 numbered phrases can have same arrangement.
But my second taught was , Oh look , look closely, watch what you in that pattern.
Every 19 number adding or deducting can make another one.
Say if we add 19 the new pattern would be multiple of 19
1234586
but the pattern for 7 verses disappears
the I said how if I relocate numbers . Oh that is stupid to do as son I relocate the number then no more normal sequence 1234567
This 7 was stamped in my brain and all time I was thinking what message is there that first chapter has been chosen 7
Took while until I search and found many 7 in GR.
You can read rest here and I would be happy if you can produce one like that.
If you need more explanation please do not hesitate
Peace. -
Peace,
16125 Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them (jidal) in ways that are best and most gracious for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. [/quote}
In seeing the word hajj as debate it will always be a jidaal. hajj is a logical debate, jidaal can be a logical or an illogical debate, a gracious or an ungracious one. Any debate will always be a jidaal. That is why i don't believe that the hajj we make is a debate in any fashion.
I most likely will not be privy to this discussion unless it is uploaded to youtube. In that case I will listen to it unless if find it distasteful or irrelevant as a whole. I'm not into these debates where people anxiously wait for one or the other to be logical crushed and defeated. I don't even know why it gets to this point. If this is a mutual discussion then that is fine. But a debate is completely unncessary. Despite that i hope it is fruitful. I just hope this is not a climb for leadership of a large portion of Free-mind Quranites. That would be unfortunate, although it might be inevitable as people rarely come together on the principles of cooperation, comprehension, mutual consultation and mutual progress. Rather it seems that mankind has this vile, instinctive side that follows behind the strong horse and loves rebellious spirit and fanciful man-made innovations.
Anyway, I won't be too negative. I don't expect much but may God bless you both and lead your towards some progress on this issue for the sake of all 19er's, Khalifite submitters' and all Quran-centered Muslims.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Ayman,
Because the 100 real verses taken out from Chapter 9 is compensated by the new 100 false verses added to chapter 11, we have the same exact Checksum.
You could have easily stated that without being all pompous about it.
See excellent point above made by Edip.
What I posted is only the basic shell of the external structure and still remains to discover the internal pattern/key for each individual Surah, # of verses, words, etc...
Where do you see books arranged like this? (you may have to download and enlarge)
http//i35.tinypic.com/kly5y.jpg
If you can?t see the obvious pattern above, it must be the screen which blinds the self.
Peace Bahman,
Pertaining to Chapter 1 in that video, no problem with any of that which needs further research to be consistently applied for each chapter.
My only issue is with Chapter 9 and removing the two verses (major contradiction) along with claims of messenger and other nonsense which get into peoples heads. Imagine if everyone who discovered something new in Quran did that ? It?s only pattern same as a crystal structure. No need to freak out and proclaim oneself a messenger over observing it.
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Peace Edip,
EDIP I have not yet many of the discussions on this thread, including yuors. I just noticed your assertion above. None claimed that the symetry in relation to the number of chapters with odd and even verses alone was safeguarding the verses of the chapters.
Read what Nun clearly said
"Even/odd or binary (0/1) structure cannot be replicated by man or machine -- move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart"
This statement is either a bad joke or you are wrong.
However, you missed the point. If you wished to challenge this observation, you should have tried randomly changing the numbers, not deliberately changing them. Since, code 19 of the Quran was not known before 1974, the changes made in the number of verses by those who lived before 1974 would most likely destroy this symmetry.
There is no symmetry or anything. I was able to easily achieve more real symmetry in about 10 minutes while messing up ALL the chapters.
If I randomly change the numbers then 1 out of every 19 of my trials are going to be divisible by 19. A computer can do 19 trials in a millisecond. So it would have taken me even less time to get a 19 divisible randomly. Even without a computer it wouldn't take very long to do 19 trials.
Peace,
Ayman
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Lobster,
I don't think 2130 and 5147 are metaphorical because I think the easiest way to understand them is to understand them to be about the Big Bang and the expansion of the universe respectively. I think the idea that the reading has many, many metaphorical verses is off-putting and untenable.
I hope the accident you were in wasn't serious and I'm glad you have a positive attitude about it.
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Peace Bahman,
That was Nun's
No interlock
No security, no divinity and simply the claim collapse . Masha Allah . Please try this one too Click to image takes you to source.
http//creatorsignature.com/thekey.JPG
PeaceYour number has 274 digits and is multiple of 19. I can add to the first chapter of the great reading some false verses and make it a far more impressive 418 (19x22) digits multiple of 19
1919191919191919191919191919191919191995153945638573845617119260401303051302008405013020081040217130
8404303052002130703040105031213020084050130200810404114030201064013041050519110120507024611012050604
0070105061815450113090200913040604001001040743902009130700105015070404007030105401000102001304010008
0062703010540630113080013010504566757312636313857386555623665551279131106034292419191919191919191919
191919191919191919Notice that not only my code is longer than yours but my chapter starts and ends with sets of initials which "interlock" rotfl the chapter on both ends so it is more "secure" and your claim collapsed more easily than Nun's.
Peace,
Ayman
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What is the scorcher?
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Wow!!!
really looking forward to this!!!
I'm not familiar with pal talk so i would appreciate any recordings in which i could download it. It's also a good chance to present 19 to my parents in which there are arguments for and against 19.
Good luck to both hope you both put forward the best of what you know and come closer to the truth.
God bless the event
peace
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Peace Farida
I also dislike the idea of sects.
But in this case i think that it's just two people debating something in relation to the Quran. I don't really think that we can define the belief in code 19 or not believing in code 19 as sects. I think it can only be classified as a sect when the belief in 19 has it's own rules such as how we uphold salat. but it's just one issue with respect to the Quran just as salat is debated or ramadan is debated, this is another.
I think it's an incredible feature of the Quran which i believe God willed. Thus i think it has a purpose.
peace
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My only issue is with Chapter 9 and removing the two verses (major contradiction) along with claims of messenger and other nonsense which get into peoples heads. Imagine if everyone who discovered something new in Quran did that ? It?s only pattern same as a crystal structure. No need to freak out and proclaim oneself a messenger over observing it.
Seconded!!
Peace Farida
I also dislike the idea of sects.
But in this case i think that it's just two people debating something in relation to the Quran. I don't really think that we can define the belief in code 19 or not believing in code 19 as sects. I think it can only be classified as a sect when the belief in 19 has it's own rules such as how we uphold salat. but it's just one issue with respect to the Quran just as salat is debated or ramadan is debated, this is another.
I think it's an incredible feature of the Quran which i believe God willed. Thus i think it has a purpose.
peace
Salaam Nimnimak,
If, constantly promoting the 19credo, carrying the 19avatar, and referring to the person who discovered the 19 code as 'the Messenger', and above all campaigning to remove 2 ayat from the Quran because they don't fit the 19 pattern, making code 19 a driving force is not about being a sect ?
There is a purpose in every sign of God hail
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peace all,
Lets take a look at the verse that rashid claim should be removed
- " towards the believers he is compassionate, merciful?" But God is the merciful, the most merciful.
9128 A messenger has come to you from yourselves, concerned over your suffering, anxious over you, towards the believers he is compassionate, merciful.
Chapter 9 is taliking about killing and attacking, not about if they turn away; then say the below. No, i believe in chapter 9 that if they turn away then you shall take them and kill them. See below
9129 If they turn away, then say ?God is enough for me, there is no god but He, in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the great throne.?
also, what about the missing bissmila in chapter 9. It may be a sign that the devil intefered with his wishes. God said He would do this didnt He?
And a messenger came to muhammad to authenticate what was with him. While the quran is an authenticater of everthing before and after it.
However, I dont believe everything about the 19 as far as the 5 salats and ruks and all that. But it may be proof that Allah knows what is in the heavens and the earth. And 5 salats may have been the practice of muhammad. Jesus salated as long as he was alive (From early morning till late at night). But whatever you do or however many times a day you salat, do not turn away those who call on their Lord dawn and dusk seeking His presence according to Quran.
Let us ask this. If we removed those two verses, what message would the Quran be missing? Or in other words, what harm will it really do to remove those verses, ( not saying that its is for me to change it of my own accord, but to say that we should enforce awarnes of it? Would i be miscivous in only calling on my Lord alone. The merciful, the most merciful.
( Note that I am still studying this and im just openly sharing my thoughts, questions,and observations regarding this. )
And what is the scorcher? Over the scorcher is 19! So is the scorcher the Quran?
peace
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Peace Anthony,
And what is the scorcher? Over the scorcher is 19! So is the scorcher the Quran?
Unfortunately, many 19ers falsely quote this "over it is 19" part in isolation to imply that "over it is 19" refers to the great reading and a bunch of other things (the golden ratio, etc...). They take advantage of naive English speakers who will not verify the information and look in the original text to see that in Arabic there is no gender neutral "it" and the passage actually has "3alayha" which literally means "over her" and the Arabic word "quran" is masculine while "saqar"/scorcherer/fire is feminine. So "over it" is actually refering to nothing but the hellfire.
Peace,
Ayman