Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
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@ Supernaut
peace,There is zero evidence that aliens sent us the reading. Only Raelians and pseudo-archaeologists think there's evidence that aliens made the universe and gave us our religions.
Yes but there's zero evidence that they didn't. And here we're only going by what the CODE tells us. Nothing else.
I think the orderliness and the perfection in the laws of nature preclude the possibility of there being more than one god.
Maybe. But again that is reflecting on the world and it's signs, not the code.
I know I am, and I believe I'm making an educated and intelligent assumption.
It's actually not that much of an assumption because you are basing that on what you've seen in the world and from what you've read in the book. If let's say you lose all your senses of perception but somehow can still see the code, you cannot logically reach that conclusion.
My point is that the conclusion you are reaching about the Quran being written by God is completely independent of the code. The code has nothing to do with your belief.
We know that the code BY ITSELF has no meaning or purpose. It's like a 0.
Having the code around is like adding 0 to something. You're not adding anything at all.Now my belief of the Quran is that it wasn't written by God, and I don't think it even claims that. I think it claims that it was inspired by God. It says that all truth comes from god, which means all truth is divine. As you said, humans are capable of writing the truth so humans are certainly capable of creating something divine.
It's just like the divine attributes. God is all-knowing, all-merciful etc. We can all exhibit those divine qualities. We can gain knowledge, we can have mercy. We can also create a message with truth in it.
There is nothing supernatural about this book. It's just a book. We're supposed to read it and get whatever we can out of it.What God HAS written is the universe. The books are written by men. The books help us because they spare us the difficulty of figuring things out by ourselves and instills good values within us. But we can skip the books if we want and go straight to the source - God's creation. Like Abraham did. We can go through trial and error like him and figure out the truth.
The truth is only useful when we understand it and we can use it. The code doesn't help us do any of that. In my view of things there is no need to look for such a code.
And I use the term "god" loosely because I'm not sure what God is or if there even is a God. -
Peace Ayman,
Why do you knowlying post deception such as above?
Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd
1..........75..........76..........76..........
2..........1024..........1026..........1026..........
3..........390..........393....................393
4..........2..........6..........6..........
5..........52..........57....................57
6..........51..........57....................57
7..........402..........409....................409
8..........5..........13....................13
9..........29..........38..........38..........
10..........9..........19....................19
11..........9..........20..........20..........
12..........135..........147....................147
13..........215..........228..........228..........
14..........4..........18..........18..........
15..........23..........38..........38..........
16..........20..........36..........36..........
17..........21..........38..........38..........
18..........10..........28..........28..........
19..........76..........95....................95
20..........177..........197....................197
21..........36..........57....................57
22..........28..........50..........50..........
23..........110..........133....................133
24..........10..........34..........34..........
25..........7..........32..........32..........
26..........443..........469....................469
27..........107..........134..........134..........
28..........104..........132..........132..........
29..........69..........98..........98..........
30..........58..........88..........88..........
31..........2..........33....................33
32..........18..........50..........50..........
33..........63..........96..........96..........
34..........80..........114..........114..........
35..........25..........60..........60..........
36..........21..........57....................57
37..........86..........123....................123
38..........76..........114..........114..........
39..........81..........120..........120..........
40..........95..........135....................135
41..........62..........103....................103
42..........33..........75....................75
43..........55..........98..........98..........
44..........3..........47....................47
45..........71..........116..........116..........
46..........85..........131....................131
47..........46..........93....................93
48..........9..........57....................57
49..........8..........57....................57
50..........37..........87....................87
51..........64..........115....................115
52..........65..........117....................117
53..........80..........133....................133
54..........17..........71....................71
55..........96..........151....................151
56..........68..........124..........124..........
57..........57..........114..........114..........1-57...................6757.....3126......3631 <--------1st checksum 1st half
6757 3126 3631 = 19 x 35564803349By changing chapter 9 to have only 29 verses...
Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd
1............7............8............8...........
2..........286..........288..........288...........
3..........200..........203.....................203
4..........176..........180..........180...........
5..........120..........125.....................125
6..........165..........171.....................171
7..........206..........213.....................213
8...........75...........83......................83
9..........29..........38..........38...........
10.........109..........119.....................119
11.........123..........134..........134...........
12.........111..........123.....................123
13..........43...........56...........56...........
14..........52...........66...........66...........
15..........99..........114..........114...........
16.........128..........144..........144...........
17.........111..........128..........128...........
18.........110..........128..........128...........
19..........98..........117.....................117
20.........135..........155.....................155
21.........112..........133.....................133
22..........78..........100..........100...........
23.........118..........141.....................141
24..........64...........88...........88...........
25..........77..........102..........102...........
26.........227..........253.....................253
27..........93..........120..........120...........
28..........88..........116..........116...........
29..........69...........98...........98...........
30..........60...........90...........90...........
31..........34...........65......................65
32..........30...........62...........62..........
33..........73..........106..........106..........
34..........54...........88...........88..........
35..........45...........80...........80..........
36..........83..........119.....................119
37.........182..........219.....................219
38..........88..........126..........126...........
39..........75..........114..........114..........
40..........85..........125.....................125
41..........54...........95......................95
42..........53...........95......................95
43..........89..........132..........132...........
44..........59..........103.....................103
45..........37...........82...........82...........
46..........35...........81......................81
47..........38...........85......................85
48..........29...........77......................77
49..........18...........67......................67
50..........45...........95......................95
51..........60..........111.....................111
52..........49..........101.....................101
53..........62..........115.....................115
54..........55..........109.....................109
55..........78..........133.....................133
56..........96..........152..........152...........
57..........29...........86...........86...........1-57...................6657.....3026......3631 <--------1st checksum 1st half
6657 3026 3631 IS NOT divisible by 19 with remainder = 18
Neither are
6657 3631 3026
3631 3026 6657
3631 6657 3026
3026 3631 6657
3026 6657 3631Although I'm sure you knew that already.
Peace
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Peace,
Yes but there's zero evidence that they didn't.
That is a logical fallacy.
And here we're only going by what the CODE tells us. Nothing else.
I agree that a code in a book that had nonsense in it would be meaningless, but if the reading - which I have faith is a lucid scripture - had a code, the code would be meaningful.
Maybe. But again that is reflecting on the world and it's signs, not the code.
True.
It's actually not that much of an assumption because you are basing that on what you've seen in the world and from what you've read in the book. If let's say you lose all your senses of perception but somehow can still see the code, you cannot logically reach that conclusion.
That is true, but a creature that could appreciate the signs in the universe and conclude that a god exists from them would also be able to appreciate a code in the reading if such a code existed.
My point is that the conclusion you are reaching about the Quran being written by God is completely independent of the code. The code has nothing to do with your belief.
Well it did before because it impressed me. Anyway, lets assume the reading did have a superhuman code. Such a code would help some people believe because these people would see the complexity and inimitability of it as evidence of divine authorship.
We know that the code BY ITSELF has no meaning or purpose. It's like a 0.
Having the code around is like adding 0 to something. You're not adding anything at all.I think a superhuman code in the reading would be part and parcel of it. It wouldn't exist independent of the reading because then it wouldn't be the reading's code.
Now my belief of the Quran is that it wasn't written by God, and I don't think it even claims that.
No, I think it does (1037, 482, 299, 33, 2110 and many, many more verses). However, the deity didn't write the reading (67), the way it engraved the Torah on tablets (7144-145), and I think the reason why the deity wrote the Torah down for Moses and Aaron and their people is that they didn't have the time or resources to write it down themselves, while Mohamed and his followers did.
I think it claims that it was inspired by God. It says that all truth comes from god, which means all truth is divine.
The deity tells us that It "sent down" the reading, but that It didn't write it down. It was Gabriel who transmitted the reading to Mohamed by the deity's permission (16102).
As you said, humans are capable of writing the truth so humans are certainly capable of creating something divine.
Something divine would have to be entirely free of contradictions and nonsense, and I have faith the reading is. The deity tells us the reading has no contradictions in it in 482.
It's just like the divine attributes. God is all-knowing, all-merciful etc. We can all exhibit those divine qualities.
Be all-knowing, the most merciful and the ever merciful? We can only come close to knowing everything and it'd be very exhausting to be all-merciful all the time. We're humans. Our knowledge is limited and we lose our tempers very often.
We can gain knowledge, we can have mercy. We can also create a message with truth in it.
Yes, but the deity's better at being merciful and creating good messages (I just imagined the deity typing a mobile phone text message P) and the deity knows everything.
There is nothing supernatural about this book. It's just a book. We're supposed to read it and get whatever we can out of it.
No, but I have faith that it doesn't have contradictions in it and that it's free of errors. That's not typical of books written by humans. Also, some of its content couldn't have been written during Mohamed's time.
What God HAS written is the universe. The books are written by men.
But sent down by the deity.
The books help us because they spare us the difficulty of figuring things out by ourselves and instills good values within us. But we can skip the books if we want and go straight to the source - God's creation. Like Abraham did. We can go through trial and error like him and figure out the truth.
I agree.
The truth is only useful when we understand it and we can use it. The code doesn't help us do any of that. In my view of things there is no need to look for such a code.
But a code would help us accept the truth.
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Peace Nun,
Why do you knowlying post deception such as above?
Hey, all I did was use your nonsensical Checksum method. You knowingly posted your deception first. At least I made it clear that I was joking.
By changing chapter 9 to have only 29 verses...
But I didn't only change Chapter 9. I changed all chapters and still got the same exact Checksum as you did. Just paste my calculations in Excel or something. In fact, you don't even need to do that. Just take out 100 verses from Chapter 9 and add them to any other even chapter such as Chapter 11. So now Chapter 9 has 29 verses while Chapter 11 has 223 new verses and your Checksum is EXACTLY the same.
Here, I will use your table below
Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd
1............7............8............8...........
2..........286..........288..........288...........
3..........200..........203.....................203
4..........176..........180..........180...........
5..........120..........125.....................125
6..........165..........171.....................171
7..........206..........213.....................213
8...........75...........83......................83
9..........29..........38..........38...........
10.........109..........119.....................119
11.........223..........234..........234...........
12.........111..........123.....................123
13..........43...........56...........56...........
14..........52...........66...........66...........
15..........99..........114..........114...........
16.........128..........144..........144...........
17.........111..........128..........128...........
18.........110..........128..........128...........
19..........98..........117.....................117
20.........135..........155.....................155
21.........112..........133.....................133
22..........78..........100..........100...........
23.........118..........141.....................141
24..........64...........88...........88...........
25..........77..........102..........102...........
26.........227..........253.....................253
27..........93..........120..........120...........
28..........88..........116..........116...........
29..........69...........98...........98...........
30..........60...........90...........90...........
31..........34...........65......................65
32..........30...........62...........62..........
33..........73..........106..........106..........
34..........54...........88...........88..........
35..........45...........80...........80..........
36..........83..........119.....................119
37.........182..........219.....................219
38..........88..........126..........126...........
39..........75..........114..........114..........
40..........85..........125.....................125
41..........54...........95......................95
42..........53...........95......................95
43..........89..........132..........132...........
44..........59..........103.....................103
45..........37...........82...........82...........
46..........35...........81......................81
47..........38...........85......................85
48..........29...........77......................77
49..........18...........67......................67
50..........45...........95......................95
51..........60..........111.....................111
52..........49..........101.....................101
53..........62..........115.....................115
54..........55..........109.....................109
55..........78..........133.....................133
56..........96..........152..........152...........
57..........29...........86...........86...........1-57...................6757.....3126......3631 <--------1st checksum 1st half
6757 3126 3631 IS divisible by 19 with remainder = 0Because the 100 real verses taken out from Chapter 9 is compensated by the new 100 false verses added to chapter 11, we have the same exact Checksum. In fact, you can mess up ALL the chapters of the great reading this way and not just two chapters and in the process achieve a more symmetric, powerful and impressive Code 19 as I easily demonstrated in about 10 minutes.
If you were not joking then your statement "even/odd or binary (0/1) structure cannot be replicated by man or machine -- move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart" is not just false, it is probably the dumbest thing I heard on the subject of Code 19 (and believe me, over the years, I heard lots of dumb things on this subject). I hope that you were joking or this was a momentary lapse of reason and you will humbly see the truth and not continue down this slippery slope. I am sorry to be so hard on you but this is so obvious that at this stage you are really in no position to argue.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Supernaut
I never make logical fallacies. Never!
As long as you don't know who sent something to you, you have a host of possible senders. Aliens could be one of them. That's what I meant.
Anyway that's not important anymore...So what I understand of what you're saying is that the code depends on the scripture being true. So first you have to BELIEVE in it, and then the code is there just in case your faith wavers a bit.
But here's the thing, if you verify something, and KNOW it beyond doubt to be true, then you don't need a code anymore. In fact needing a code to believe in the truth of something means that your belief isn't 100%, that there is doubt.
There is no room for doubt. You either know something or you don't. If you know, then there's no point to the code. I know the sky is blue. Now a code telling me that that statement is true wouldn't add anything.I have a feeling that people are using this code to fill up the empty spaces, the holes in their faith. Those holes shouldn't be there.
No, but I have faith that it doesn't have contradictions in it and that it's free of errors. That's not typical of books written by humans. Also, some of its content couldn't have been written during Mohamed's time.
I believe the quran does have some errors. And I really don't buy the "couldn't have been written during Muhammad's time" because we don't know how much knowledge those people did or didn't have. In fact I think ancient people knew far more than people today believe they did.
Well it did before because it impressed me. Anyway, lets assume the reading did have a superhuman code. Such a code would help some people believe because these people would see the complexity and inimitability of it as evidence of divine authorship.
If something is true, then it's true. The truth is clear from falsehood, isn't it? If it's not true, then the only other option is that it must be false. You should have complete faith in the truth and you should completely reject falsehood. It doesn't matter where the truth comes from or whether it comes with a free code. You either know something or you don't know. It's like an on and off switch. ! sort of like that. A code can't make the truth truther.
Be all-knowing, the most merciful and the ever merciful? We can only come close to knowing everything and it'd be very exhausting to be all-merciful all the time. We're humans. Our knowledge is limited and we lose our tempers very often.
Yes. We can never be perfect. God is like a perfect ideal that we can all aspire to but can never reach. It's like a limit (if you're a calculus nerd).
the quran I believe is written by men because even if it doesn't have contradictions, it certainly has flaws. -
Peace Lobster,
So what I understand of what you're saying is that the code depends on the scripture being true. So first you have to BELIEVE in it, and then the code is there just in case your faith wavers a bit.
But here's the thing, if you verify something, and KNOW it beyond doubt to be true, then you don't need a code anymore. In fact needing a code to believe in the truth of something means that your belief isn't 100%, that there is doubt.Believers are humans so their faith does waver. Even the reading acknowledges that believers do become unsure of their faith (2260 and 2214). It's unreasonable to claim that a believer's faith will always be 100% sure.
There is no room for doubt. You either know something or you don't. If you know, then there's no point to the code. I know the sky is blue. Now a code telling me that that statement is true wouldn't add anything.
Yes, but what if you had reason, albeit not so good, to doubt what you were very sure of? You can't deny that every intelligent and sceptical human does doubt what they believe in from time to time. Only when we doubt what we know and question our faith do we actually learn more about it and develop a better understanding of what we already know about it.
I have a feeling that people are using this code to fill up the empty spaces, the holes in their faith.
Or they could just be using it to augment their faith.
Those holes shouldn't be there.I believe the quran does have some errors. And I really don't buy the "couldn't have been written during Muhammad's time" because we don't know how much knowledge those people did or didn't have.
We can have a very good estimate judging by what they left behind, and what the civilizations that preceded them left them. I believe that the Arabs might've known that the earth was round but they couldn't have known that the universe began as a tiny singularity that is expanding until the reading told them this in 2130 and 5147.
In fact I think ancient people knew far more than people today believe they did.
I agree.
If something is true, then it's true. The truth is clear from falsehood, isn't it? If it's not true, then the only other option is that it must be false.
Our belief in something and our doubts in that belief have zero bearing on the reality of that thing. Suppose I doubted that the sky is blue, now my doubt in my belief that the sky is blue wouldn't mean that the sky isn't blue.
You should have complete faith in the truth and you should completely reject falsehood.
Well I pray I reach such a stage in an intelligent way. Many people believe in things because they suppress their reason. Sunnis and Shias assuage their doubts with obsessive-compulsive rituals, but a true muslim would clear away most of their doubts by learning, and because it's not possible to learn everything, a true muslim would always strive to improve their understanding by learning more.
It doesn't matter where the truth comes from or whether it comes with a free code. You either know something or you don't know. It's like an on and off switch. ! sort of like that. A code can't make the truth truther.
I'm sorry, but I think that's a very simplistic thing to say. Humans are certainly not like on and off switches; they are far more complex.
Yes. We can never be perfect. God is like a perfect ideal that we can all aspire to but can never reach. It's like a limit (if you're a calculus nerd).
the quran I believe is written by men because even if it doesn't have contradictions, it certainly has flaws.I have faith (blind faith so far) that the reading has no flaws in it. I pray I'll be able to replace blind faith with something much better in the future.
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There is no room for doubt. You either know something or you don't. If you know, then there's no point to the code. I know the sky is blue. Now a code telling me that that statement is true wouldn't add anything.
Peace.
3 seconds more then your post time was 191919
The sky is visible but Creator is invisible.
If you show me a sign of such invisible creator like apple falling from tree is a sign for existence of invisible gravity.
All religions claiming heir book is the divine one and none of them can show a proof for it. But now we have proof for divinity of Quran GR by code 19. Simple to understand-impossible to imitate.
If you can imitate one of the simple one like this then I would like to hear more from you.
Peace. -
Peace Supernaut,
Believers are humans so their faith does waver. Even the reading acknowledges that believers do become unsure of their faith (2260 and 2214). It's unreasonable to claim that a believer's faith will always be 100% sure.
Okay I'll concede that we can't always be 100% sure. We do have doubts from time to time and it is great to question our beliefs, obviously.
Or they could just be using it to augment their faith.
Okay, but their faith in what? We should believe in the truth because it is true. Not because there is a code.
There is a difference between having faith in the truth and having faith in a book that's supposed to be true. In the end if the message is true, then we should believe in it. Regardless of the code.
And the fact of life is that we have to see to believe. You can't believe without seeing. If you do there will always be doubt. A code can never be a substitute for verification through direct observation.
I don't know. Maybe a code might help some people. But I still think it's an unnecessary crutch that distracts from the message.We can have a very good estimate judging by what they left behind, and what the civilizations that preceded them left them. I believe that the Arabs might've known that the earth was round but they couldn't have known that the universe began as a tiny singularity that is expanding until the reading told them this in 2130 and 5147.
Maybe. But I don't think that's what the reading means by those verses. Usually the simplest explanation is the best one. The interpretation that those verses are talking about the big bang because god wrote this book and he put that information in there as a sign is an too complex of an explanation. A simpler explanation would just be that those verses are metaphorical.
I'm sorry, but I think that's a very simplistic thing to say. Humans are certainly not like on and off switches; they are far more complex.
I didn't mean humans are like on and off switches. I meant truth and falsehood is. There's no middle ground. We need to use our powers of observations to figure out which is which.
I have faith (blind faith so far) that the reading has no flaws in it. I pray I'll be able to replace blind faith with something much better in the future.
I think it's good that you know that you have blind faith and you are striving for something better. You're probably afraid that you might not be able to get rid of that blind faith so maybe you want there to be a code which would solve that problem?
I was in the same boat you are but then I realized that I can't keep believing blindly. I had doubts about the quran but I kept ignoring them. But then I thought what the heck why don't I just conclude for now that it's wrong because that's the best understanding I have. If later I learn something new I will change my beliefs.
I was just afraid of disbelieving in the quran. And also because it was one thing in my beliefs that was reliable, and I didn't want to lose that.
But then I realized that the quran's not the only path to God. I can do without it. There are so many different translations, so many different interpretations that I just feel it's no longer worth it for me. I would have to spend years and years trying to understand which way to interpret a single word.
I've decided to take Abraham's way and figure things out on my own. I've been pretty decent at it so far. And there are always people who help you along the way. And sometimes you learn something new and you think, I've read that in the quran somewhere.I was reading Daniel Dennett's (an atheist) book about free will. And it made me think that you can't look back at an event and think, I wish things had turned out differently, because you don't know what might've happened. I was in an accident earlier this year. And I can't wish that it didn't happen because for all I know I could've gotten into a worse crash down the road. And that reminded me of a particular story in the quran. The one with Moses.
I think the quran's poetry. There's a lot of metaphors in it. You don't really understand it unless you've experienced what it's talking about. That's why I think the quran's probably been altered because some parts just don't sound like that.
Like I used to have no idea what love songs were about when I was a kid, but then you experience it and you understand what they mean.Anyway, if you think the code might help you, then you should listen to Ayman and Edip's debate and see if it really does exist. My take on it is that it doesn't. But you should read what the experts have to say.
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Peace.
3 seconds more then your post time was 191919 )
The sky is visible but Creator is invisible.
If you show me a sign of such invisible creator like apple falling from tree is a sign for existence of invisible gravity.
All religions claiming heir book is the divine one and none of them can show a proof for it. But now we have proof for divinity of Quran GR by code 19. Simple to understand-impossible to imitate.
If you can imitate one of the simple one like this then I would like to hear more from you.
Peace.Peace Bahman,
I don't understand why you pick one sentence out of all I've written and respond to just that. I'd like you to address my whole argument like Supernaut has been patiently doing.I also don't understand the obsession with "divinity." Honestly I don't care about that. If a teaching is true I follow it, if it's not I discard it. It's that simple. I don't get why you have to make it so complicated.
The quran's divinity doesn't help me with anything. The truth does. So I'll look for the truth, and you can keep looking for the divinity. Whatever that is.
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AYMAN Because the 100 real verses taken out from Chapter 9 is compensated by the new 100 false verses added to chapter 11, we have the same exact Checksum. In fact, you can mess up ALL the chapters of the great reading this way and not just two chapters and in the process achieve a more symmetric, powerful and impressive Code 19 as I easily demonstrated in about 10 minutes.
EDIP I have not yet many of the discussions on this thread, including yuors. I just noticed your assertion above. None claimed that the symetry in relation to the number of chapters with odd and even verses alone was safeguarding the verses of the chapters.
However, you missed the point. If you wished to challenge this observation, you should have tried randomly changing the numbers, not deliberately changing them. Since, code 19 of the Quran was not known before 1974, the changes made in the number of verses by those who lived before 1974 would most likely destroy this symmetry.
Peace,
Edip -
Peace Bahman,
I don't understand why you pick one sentence out of all I've written and respond to just that. I'd like you to address my whole argument like Supernaut has been patiently doing.I also don't understand the obsession with "divinity." Honestly I don't care about that. If a teaching is true I follow it, if it's not I discard it. It's that simple. I don't get why you have to make it so complicated.
The quran's divinity doesn't help me with anything. The truth does. So I'll look for the truth, and you can keep looking for the divinity. Whatever that is.
Peace
I would like to make simple and short . Time is precious
Do you believe in existence of superhuman as creator ?
Peace -
-
Peace
I would like to make simple and short . Time is precious )
Do you believe in existence of superhuman as creator ?
PeacePeace Bahman,
what is a superhuman?I'm don't believe there is a god the way religions describe. There might be an intelligent creator, but I don't think there is much evidence of that.
But there are much much better ways for this creator to convince of its existence than a numerological pattern. -
Peace Bahman,
what is a superhuman?
I'm don't believe there is a god the way religions describe. There might be an intelligent creator, but I don't think there is much evidence of that.Peace
That is exactly I was believing prior to 10 years ago.
expecting an evidence , proof, sign. Some how Creator, Superhuman. God, Lord, Jesus, Allah, GD ?????????????
to show his existence by an evidence. Like Moses stock, opening sea .jesus miracles,???????????..
But none of those could persuade me when we have all kind of knowledge, tools, to be truth when I am not there like Moon landing , as is claimed was movie right or wrong evidence like this can not be claimed as we can produce better miracle on this screen than what we read in book scientifically.
With such belief and a incident caused I do my search now on this screen late 1997.
I reached the site claiming that have proof for existence of God and his sign , evidence for this era generation knowing how to use this screen that can do their own search and examination in their kitchen and test it without any help from any body.
What is most important field of knowledge in past and present and future is knowledge of numbers which transforms to many subfields like arithmetic, mathematic, geometry, trigonometry????..
Our life without number is no possible in this era, we are attached to numbers everywhere. What better Miracle ( evidence) using these simple numbers 1-9 .
I bet that there is no one there on this screen do not know how to do 4 arithmatic functions +-/*I was one of those that do not posses high mathematic knowledge but enough to understand when Rashad says he discovered
First chapter of GR has seven verses , when we write chapter 1 followed by 1234567
It is multiple of 19.
My response in my mind was BS any book with 7 numbered phrases can have same arrangement.
But my second taught was , Oh look , look closely, watch what you in that pattern.
Every 19 number adding or deducting can make another one.
Say if we add 19 the new pattern would be multiple of 19
1234586
but the pattern for 7 verses disappears
the I said how if I relocate numbers . Oh that is stupid to do as son I relocate the number then no more normal sequence 1234567
This 7 was stamped in my brain and all time I was thinking what message is there that first chapter has been chosen 7
Took while until I search and found many 7 in GR.
You can read rest here and I would be happy if you can produce one like that.
If you need more explanation please do not hesitate
Peace. -
Peace,
16125 Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them (jidal) in ways that are best and most gracious for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. [/quote}
In seeing the word hajj as debate it will always be a jidaal. hajj is a logical debate, jidaal can be a logical or an illogical debate, a gracious or an ungracious one. Any debate will always be a jidaal. That is why i don't believe that the hajj we make is a debate in any fashion.
I most likely will not be privy to this discussion unless it is uploaded to youtube. In that case I will listen to it unless if find it distasteful or irrelevant as a whole. I'm not into these debates where people anxiously wait for one or the other to be logical crushed and defeated. I don't even know why it gets to this point. If this is a mutual discussion then that is fine. But a debate is completely unncessary. Despite that i hope it is fruitful. I just hope this is not a climb for leadership of a large portion of Free-mind Quranites. That would be unfortunate, although it might be inevitable as people rarely come together on the principles of cooperation, comprehension, mutual consultation and mutual progress. Rather it seems that mankind has this vile, instinctive side that follows behind the strong horse and loves rebellious spirit and fanciful man-made innovations.
Anyway, I won't be too negative. I don't expect much but may God bless you both and lead your towards some progress on this issue for the sake of all 19er's, Khalifite submitters' and all Quran-centered Muslims.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Ayman,
Because the 100 real verses taken out from Chapter 9 is compensated by the new 100 false verses added to chapter 11, we have the same exact Checksum.
You could have easily stated that without being all pompous about it.
See excellent point above made by Edip.
What I posted is only the basic shell of the external structure and still remains to discover the internal pattern/key for each individual Surah, # of verses, words, etc...
Where do you see books arranged like this? (you may have to download and enlarge)
http//i35.tinypic.com/kly5y.jpg
If you can?t see the obvious pattern above, it must be the screen which blinds the self.
Peace Bahman,
Pertaining to Chapter 1 in that video, no problem with any of that which needs further research to be consistently applied for each chapter.
My only issue is with Chapter 9 and removing the two verses (major contradiction) along with claims of messenger and other nonsense which get into peoples heads. Imagine if everyone who discovered something new in Quran did that ? It?s only pattern same as a crystal structure. No need to freak out and proclaim oneself a messenger over observing it.
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Peace Edip,
EDIP I have not yet many of the discussions on this thread, including yuors. I just noticed your assertion above. None claimed that the symetry in relation to the number of chapters with odd and even verses alone was safeguarding the verses of the chapters.
Read what Nun clearly said
"Even/odd or binary (0/1) structure cannot be replicated by man or machine -- move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart"
This statement is either a bad joke or you are wrong.
However, you missed the point. If you wished to challenge this observation, you should have tried randomly changing the numbers, not deliberately changing them. Since, code 19 of the Quran was not known before 1974, the changes made in the number of verses by those who lived before 1974 would most likely destroy this symmetry.
There is no symmetry or anything. I was able to easily achieve more real symmetry in about 10 minutes while messing up ALL the chapters.
If I randomly change the numbers then 1 out of every 19 of my trials are going to be divisible by 19. A computer can do 19 trials in a millisecond. So it would have taken me even less time to get a 19 divisible randomly. Even without a computer it wouldn't take very long to do 19 trials.
Peace,
Ayman
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Lobster,
I don't think 2130 and 5147 are metaphorical because I think the easiest way to understand them is to understand them to be about the Big Bang and the expansion of the universe respectively. I think the idea that the reading has many, many metaphorical verses is off-putting and untenable.
I hope the accident you were in wasn't serious and I'm glad you have a positive attitude about it.