Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
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AYMAN Because the 100 real verses taken out from Chapter 9 is compensated by the new 100 false verses added to chapter 11, we have the same exact Checksum. In fact, you can mess up ALL the chapters of the great reading this way and not just two chapters and in the process achieve a more symmetric, powerful and impressive Code 19 as I easily demonstrated in about 10 minutes.
EDIP I have not yet many of the discussions on this thread, including yuors. I just noticed your assertion above. None claimed that the symetry in relation to the number of chapters with odd and even verses alone was safeguarding the verses of the chapters.
However, you missed the point. If you wished to challenge this observation, you should have tried randomly changing the numbers, not deliberately changing them. Since, code 19 of the Quran was not known before 1974, the changes made in the number of verses by those who lived before 1974 would most likely destroy this symmetry.
Peace,
Edip -
Peace Bahman,
I don't understand why you pick one sentence out of all I've written and respond to just that. I'd like you to address my whole argument like Supernaut has been patiently doing.I also don't understand the obsession with "divinity." Honestly I don't care about that. If a teaching is true I follow it, if it's not I discard it. It's that simple. I don't get why you have to make it so complicated.
The quran's divinity doesn't help me with anything. The truth does. So I'll look for the truth, and you can keep looking for the divinity. Whatever that is.
Peace
I would like to make simple and short . Time is precious
Do you believe in existence of superhuman as creator ?
Peace -
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Peace
I would like to make simple and short . Time is precious )
Do you believe in existence of superhuman as creator ?
PeacePeace Bahman,
what is a superhuman?I'm don't believe there is a god the way religions describe. There might be an intelligent creator, but I don't think there is much evidence of that.
But there are much much better ways for this creator to convince of its existence than a numerological pattern. -
Peace Bahman,
what is a superhuman?
I'm don't believe there is a god the way religions describe. There might be an intelligent creator, but I don't think there is much evidence of that.Peace
That is exactly I was believing prior to 10 years ago.
expecting an evidence , proof, sign. Some how Creator, Superhuman. God, Lord, Jesus, Allah, GD ?????????????
to show his existence by an evidence. Like Moses stock, opening sea .jesus miracles,???????????..
But none of those could persuade me when we have all kind of knowledge, tools, to be truth when I am not there like Moon landing , as is claimed was movie right or wrong evidence like this can not be claimed as we can produce better miracle on this screen than what we read in book scientifically.
With such belief and a incident caused I do my search now on this screen late 1997.
I reached the site claiming that have proof for existence of God and his sign , evidence for this era generation knowing how to use this screen that can do their own search and examination in their kitchen and test it without any help from any body.
What is most important field of knowledge in past and present and future is knowledge of numbers which transforms to many subfields like arithmetic, mathematic, geometry, trigonometry????..
Our life without number is no possible in this era, we are attached to numbers everywhere. What better Miracle ( evidence) using these simple numbers 1-9 .
I bet that there is no one there on this screen do not know how to do 4 arithmatic functions +-/*I was one of those that do not posses high mathematic knowledge but enough to understand when Rashad says he discovered
First chapter of GR has seven verses , when we write chapter 1 followed by 1234567
It is multiple of 19.
My response in my mind was BS any book with 7 numbered phrases can have same arrangement.
But my second taught was , Oh look , look closely, watch what you in that pattern.
Every 19 number adding or deducting can make another one.
Say if we add 19 the new pattern would be multiple of 19
1234586
but the pattern for 7 verses disappears
the I said how if I relocate numbers . Oh that is stupid to do as son I relocate the number then no more normal sequence 1234567
This 7 was stamped in my brain and all time I was thinking what message is there that first chapter has been chosen 7
Took while until I search and found many 7 in GR.
You can read rest here and I would be happy if you can produce one like that.
If you need more explanation please do not hesitate
Peace. -
Peace,
16125 Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them (jidal) in ways that are best and most gracious for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. [/quote}
In seeing the word hajj as debate it will always be a jidaal. hajj is a logical debate, jidaal can be a logical or an illogical debate, a gracious or an ungracious one. Any debate will always be a jidaal. That is why i don't believe that the hajj we make is a debate in any fashion.
I most likely will not be privy to this discussion unless it is uploaded to youtube. In that case I will listen to it unless if find it distasteful or irrelevant as a whole. I'm not into these debates where people anxiously wait for one or the other to be logical crushed and defeated. I don't even know why it gets to this point. If this is a mutual discussion then that is fine. But a debate is completely unncessary. Despite that i hope it is fruitful. I just hope this is not a climb for leadership of a large portion of Free-mind Quranites. That would be unfortunate, although it might be inevitable as people rarely come together on the principles of cooperation, comprehension, mutual consultation and mutual progress. Rather it seems that mankind has this vile, instinctive side that follows behind the strong horse and loves rebellious spirit and fanciful man-made innovations.
Anyway, I won't be too negative. I don't expect much but may God bless you both and lead your towards some progress on this issue for the sake of all 19er's, Khalifite submitters' and all Quran-centered Muslims.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Ayman,
Because the 100 real verses taken out from Chapter 9 is compensated by the new 100 false verses added to chapter 11, we have the same exact Checksum.
You could have easily stated that without being all pompous about it.
See excellent point above made by Edip.
What I posted is only the basic shell of the external structure and still remains to discover the internal pattern/key for each individual Surah, # of verses, words, etc...
Where do you see books arranged like this? (you may have to download and enlarge)
http//i35.tinypic.com/kly5y.jpg
If you can?t see the obvious pattern above, it must be the screen which blinds the self.
Peace Bahman,
Pertaining to Chapter 1 in that video, no problem with any of that which needs further research to be consistently applied for each chapter.
My only issue is with Chapter 9 and removing the two verses (major contradiction) along with claims of messenger and other nonsense which get into peoples heads. Imagine if everyone who discovered something new in Quran did that ? It?s only pattern same as a crystal structure. No need to freak out and proclaim oneself a messenger over observing it.
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Peace Edip,
EDIP I have not yet many of the discussions on this thread, including yuors. I just noticed your assertion above. None claimed that the symetry in relation to the number of chapters with odd and even verses alone was safeguarding the verses of the chapters.
Read what Nun clearly said
"Even/odd or binary (0/1) structure cannot be replicated by man or machine -- move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart"
This statement is either a bad joke or you are wrong.
However, you missed the point. If you wished to challenge this observation, you should have tried randomly changing the numbers, not deliberately changing them. Since, code 19 of the Quran was not known before 1974, the changes made in the number of verses by those who lived before 1974 would most likely destroy this symmetry.
There is no symmetry or anything. I was able to easily achieve more real symmetry in about 10 minutes while messing up ALL the chapters.
If I randomly change the numbers then 1 out of every 19 of my trials are going to be divisible by 19. A computer can do 19 trials in a millisecond. So it would have taken me even less time to get a 19 divisible randomly. Even without a computer it wouldn't take very long to do 19 trials.
Peace,
Ayman
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Lobster,
I don't think 2130 and 5147 are metaphorical because I think the easiest way to understand them is to understand them to be about the Big Bang and the expansion of the universe respectively. I think the idea that the reading has many, many metaphorical verses is off-putting and untenable.
I hope the accident you were in wasn't serious and I'm glad you have a positive attitude about it.
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Peace Bahman,
That was Nun's
No interlock
No security, no divinity and simply the claim collapse . Masha Allah . Please try this one too Click to image takes you to source.
http//creatorsignature.com/thekey.JPG
PeaceYour number has 274 digits and is multiple of 19. I can add to the first chapter of the great reading some false verses and make it a far more impressive 418 (19x22) digits multiple of 19
1919191919191919191919191919191919191995153945638573845617119260401303051302008405013020081040217130
8404303052002130703040105031213020084050130200810404114030201064013041050519110120507024611012050604
0070105061815450113090200913040604001001040743902009130700105015070404007030105401000102001304010008
0062703010540630113080013010504566757312636313857386555623665551279131106034292419191919191919191919
191919191919191919Notice that not only my code is longer than yours but my chapter starts and ends with sets of initials which "interlock" rotfl the chapter on both ends so it is more "secure" and your claim collapsed more easily than Nun's.
Peace,
Ayman
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What is the scorcher?
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Wow!!!
really looking forward to this!!!
I'm not familiar with pal talk so i would appreciate any recordings in which i could download it. It's also a good chance to present 19 to my parents in which there are arguments for and against 19.
Good luck to both hope you both put forward the best of what you know and come closer to the truth.
God bless the event
peace
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Peace Farida
I also dislike the idea of sects.
But in this case i think that it's just two people debating something in relation to the Quran. I don't really think that we can define the belief in code 19 or not believing in code 19 as sects. I think it can only be classified as a sect when the belief in 19 has it's own rules such as how we uphold salat. but it's just one issue with respect to the Quran just as salat is debated or ramadan is debated, this is another.
I think it's an incredible feature of the Quran which i believe God willed. Thus i think it has a purpose.
peace
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My only issue is with Chapter 9 and removing the two verses (major contradiction) along with claims of messenger and other nonsense which get into peoples heads. Imagine if everyone who discovered something new in Quran did that ? It?s only pattern same as a crystal structure. No need to freak out and proclaim oneself a messenger over observing it.
Seconded!!
Peace Farida
I also dislike the idea of sects.
But in this case i think that it's just two people debating something in relation to the Quran. I don't really think that we can define the belief in code 19 or not believing in code 19 as sects. I think it can only be classified as a sect when the belief in 19 has it's own rules such as how we uphold salat. but it's just one issue with respect to the Quran just as salat is debated or ramadan is debated, this is another.
I think it's an incredible feature of the Quran which i believe God willed. Thus i think it has a purpose.
peace
Salaam Nimnimak,
If, constantly promoting the 19credo, carrying the 19avatar, and referring to the person who discovered the 19 code as 'the Messenger', and above all campaigning to remove 2 ayat from the Quran because they don't fit the 19 pattern, making code 19 a driving force is not about being a sect ?
There is a purpose in every sign of God hail
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peace all,
Lets take a look at the verse that rashid claim should be removed
- " towards the believers he is compassionate, merciful?" But God is the merciful, the most merciful.
9128 A messenger has come to you from yourselves, concerned over your suffering, anxious over you, towards the believers he is compassionate, merciful.
Chapter 9 is taliking about killing and attacking, not about if they turn away; then say the below. No, i believe in chapter 9 that if they turn away then you shall take them and kill them. See below
9129 If they turn away, then say ?God is enough for me, there is no god but He, in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the great throne.?
also, what about the missing bissmila in chapter 9. It may be a sign that the devil intefered with his wishes. God said He would do this didnt He?
And a messenger came to muhammad to authenticate what was with him. While the quran is an authenticater of everthing before and after it.
However, I dont believe everything about the 19 as far as the 5 salats and ruks and all that. But it may be proof that Allah knows what is in the heavens and the earth. And 5 salats may have been the practice of muhammad. Jesus salated as long as he was alive (From early morning till late at night). But whatever you do or however many times a day you salat, do not turn away those who call on their Lord dawn and dusk seeking His presence according to Quran.
Let us ask this. If we removed those two verses, what message would the Quran be missing? Or in other words, what harm will it really do to remove those verses, ( not saying that its is for me to change it of my own accord, but to say that we should enforce awarnes of it? Would i be miscivous in only calling on my Lord alone. The merciful, the most merciful.
( Note that I am still studying this and im just openly sharing my thoughts, questions,and observations regarding this. )
And what is the scorcher? Over the scorcher is 19! So is the scorcher the Quran?
peace
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Peace Anthony,
And what is the scorcher? Over the scorcher is 19! So is the scorcher the Quran?
Unfortunately, many 19ers falsely quote this "over it is 19" part in isolation to imply that "over it is 19" refers to the great reading and a bunch of other things (the golden ratio, etc...). They take advantage of naive English speakers who will not verify the information and look in the original text to see that in Arabic there is no gender neutral "it" and the passage actually has "3alayha" which literally means "over her" and the Arabic word "quran" is masculine while "saqar"/scorcherer/fire is feminine. So "over it" is actually refering to nothing but the hellfire.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace everyone,
Mathematics is one of my favorite subjects and once upon a time, when I initially found out about code 19 I found it fascinating. Unfortunately, after spending countless hours and burning the midnight oil to research and verify the existence of code 19 in al-quran, I found ZERO evidence of the so called code 19 from al-quran. Believe me, I wanted to find the so called code 19 in al-quran, but I couldn't despite my positive bias in favor of code 19. On the contrary, I found evidence that it is just a fitna, and alhamdulillah, my faith has been strengthened by it being a fitna/trial for the rejecters. As far as I am concerned, the debate will make zero difference for me, but for the sake of others, I hope that truth prevails. I agree with others that some kind of audio recording of the debate should be made available to everyone. In the end, only God guides and truth will definitely prevail on the Last Day.
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I can add to the first chapter of the great reading some false verses
Ayman
Peace Ayman
I was waiting long time for such claimI can add to the first chapter of the great reading some false verses
This is very important for me and many others searching for truth.
Please stay away from mocking and joking and show me a complete chapter with real meaning of your verses with real meaning and equal Rhymed style as GR to be approved by Edip and others know Arabic.You do not have to add . Just produce one like it
Number of verses should be 7 or higher. This gives you a chance that your first design (number one ) followed by 1234567 would interlock automatically to code 19 at list you have one but copied.
Now remind you the pattern would be
Chapter number followed by- Number of verse followed number of letters in first verse followed by numerical text.
- Number of verse followed number of letters in second verse followed by numerical text
- Number of verse followed number of letters in third verse followed by numerical text
- Number of verse followed number of letters in fourth verse followed by numerical text
- Number of verse followed number of letters in fifth verse followed by numerical text
- Number of verse followed number of letters in sixth verse followed by numerical text
- Number of verse followed number of letters in seventh verse followed by numerical text
- Number of verse followed number of letters in seventh verse followed by numerical text followed by number of letters used to design.
http//creatorsignature.com/7key.jpg
I think consistency in above can satisfy your expectation toward code.
If you do above it would be enough and I am not asking to find if your work has following INTERLOCKS too.
http//y19.net/7inchp1.html
http//y19.net/666197.html
I would response to second part of your post ?Interlock? in another post.
Now your reputation is INTERLOCKED into your claim. )
Peace -
Peace
I don't think that to be intrigued by is not the same as worshiping.
code 19 is interesting. The 4 seasons are interesting. the ocean is interesting. Bees are interesting. But to find them interesting is not the same as worshiping.
I think the issue of 19 has been taken too seriously by some. Those who fault it and those who follow it alike.
peace
Peace everyone,
It is called the Fibonacci pattern or the Golden Ratio
http//www.world-mysteries.com/sci_17.htm
http//britton.disted.camosun.bc.ca/fibslide/jbfibslide.htm
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number#Fibonacci_numbers_in_nature
http//www.mathsisfun.com/numbers/nature-golden-ratio-fibonacci.html
http//www.math.uiuc.edu/~gfrancis/math306/math306web/GoldenRatioPeteWintermute.htm
Because we are asked to ponder on God's creation in al-quran, and we are told that God's signs are present in the horizons and within us, we should also make the "Fibonacci Numbers" and "Golden Ratio" our new gods and start worshipping them too in addition to 19. hail
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Peace nimnimak,
My comment was directed towards those who do worship it and make it a partner with God and abrogate God's verses with it.
4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy.
159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.