Intercourse: Allowed During Fasting!

drfazl

Peace,

2187 (It) became/is permitted/allowed to you (the) night of the fasting the obscenity/ indecency (intercourse), to your women (wives), they are (F) a cover/wives to you and you are a cover/husbands to them (F), God knew that you were betraying/being unfaithful (to) yourselves, so He forgave on you, and He ...

It would be well appreciated if you remove / .... / .... / .... / .... / .... / so many thesaurus and simply write your understanding with just one meaning.

.

Mazhar

Any obsession makes things obscure ?

It is an established fact, need no further evidence/argument.

In the law books, prescribing what is lawful and what is not lawful, the words are to be strictly construed as to the perception they convey.

It is something which is universally accepted by the sane majority. No one challenges it.

Please translate

drfazl

It is an established fact, need no further evidence/argument.

It is something which is universally accepted by the sane majority. No one challenges it.

Please translate

Made lawful for you; there were no laws forbidding it before. So it is not " It is now made lawful for you " but already it is a permitted one, a lawful one. In between who created this confusion? Is it that the miscreants who grab the lay people in the garb of self-styled imams and religious leaders? When you say it is an established fact, you admit it is not the truth but only the fact. Truth shall confirm the fact or fact shall conform to the Truth. You go by the fact i.e., popular idea, the idolized ideology. It is in actuality a form of idol worshipping. You shall know the words like established fact is yet to be confirmed as the Truth. Before confirmation how can you follow something even if it is claimed to be established, by the majority of the people? You should correct them and convert them back to the actuality. How as a muslim who shall believe in having the light and guidance only from Allah, follow the universal majority? I am challenging the none, but not The One.

Peace.

.

unknownuser

It would be well appreciated if you remove / .... / .... / .... / .... / .... / so many thesaurus and simply write your understanding with just one meaning.

Perhaps a picture and antonyms will convey the one meaning.

http//s5.tinypic.com/nej31x.jpg

Night is opposite of daytime.

Permissible is opposite of prohibited.

2187 Permissible to you night of the fasting the intercourse
?so now have sex
?and eat and drink until the dawn

Humans have capacity to understand simple IF THEN TRUE/FALSE logic.

IF explicitly stated permissible night of the fasting THEN deduced as to daytime in context = FALSE!

drfazl

Perhaps a picture and antonyms will convey the one meaning.
Night is opposite of daytime.
Permissible is opposite of prohibited.

Pictures and antonyms will convey The One's True meaning? I do not think it is so true. Perhaps you might reconsider your statement and reference.

2187 Permissible to you night of the fasting the intercourse
?so now have sex
?and eat and drink until the dawn

You have overlooked as unimportant or neglected as unnecessary the in between parts of the ayat in your Reading. Your neglected part of the ayat I have colored in bold blue. Read and answer my questions below

Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments and ye are their garments. Allah knoweth what ye used to do secretly among yourselves; but He turned to you and forgave you; so now associate with them.

Q 1 What do you think about the garments?

Q 2 When are the garments mostly essential - during the day when you will be out on the streets? Or when you are retiring to your bed during the noon time?

Q 3 In the noon time when you are in your privacy without garment, fulfilling your natural needs, Allah forbids the entry of the children and those that have come of age without permission because it is a time for the couple who are in need as to preserve their chastity, garmenting each other, preparing and purifying themselves to go out.

Q 4 But you forbid yourselves what was made lawful for you and thus have become a deceiving people. In this context you can remember Allah chiding the christian monks who forbade themselves from marrying when Allah had not made marriage a forbidden one in order to be monks, thus harming and wronging themselves. Now don't you think it is the same situation of a different kind when you forbid what is made lawful to you?

Q 5 Any way Allah has forgiven us until now because of His Mercy. So now from this day onwards we are again clarified the lawful donning of chastity, the best and the most beautiful of all the garments that a husband and wife can wear on each other. What is your take now?

.

unknownuser

You have overlooked as unimportant or neglected as unnecessary the in between parts of the ayat in your Reading. Your neglected part of the ayat I have colored in bold blue. Read and answer my questions below

Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments and ye are their garments. Allah knoweth what ye used to do secretly among yourselves; but He turned to you and forgave you; so now associate with them.

Q 1 What do you think about the garments?

Q 2 When are the garments mostly essential - during the day when you will be out on the streets? Or when you are retiring to your bed during the noon time?

Not about physical garments or walking the streets naked at night because it's dark (they are always essential).

Cover (libasan ) descended on people were not clothes falling from the sky rather a state of mind to cover desires, not be like animals; what fasting is about.

726 and the cover (mindset) of righteousness is the best

Q 3 In the noon time when you are in your privacy without garment, fulfilling your natural needs, Allah forbids the entry of the children and those that have come of age without permission because it is a time for the couple who are in need as to preserve their chastity, garmenting each other, preparing and purifying themselves to go out.

http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=46153
Browse Word
Browse Location

Physical clothes are different from metaphorical coverings.

http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=3444
Browse Word
Browse Root
Browse Location

Wadaraba Allahu mathalanqaryatan kanat aminatan mutma-innatanya/teeha rizquha raghadan min kulli makaninfakafarat bi-anAAumi Allahi faathaqaha Allahulibasa aljooAAi waalkhawfi bima kanooyasnaAAoona

Q 4 But you forbid yourselves what was made lawful for you and thus have become a deceiving people. In this context you can remember Allah chiding the christian monks who forbade themselves from marrying when Allah had not made marriage a forbidden one in order to be monks, thus harming and wronging themselves. Now don't you think it is the same situation of a different kind when you forbid what is made lawful to you?

No, verse says permissible to you night of the fasting NOT permissible during the fasting.

Have another look at the picture, imagine a pie and which half is permissible...
http//s5.tinypic.com/nej31x.jpg

The word night in the verse is explicit and nullifies permissiveness during daytime.

Q 5 Any way Allah has forgiven us until now because of His Mercy. So now from this day onwards we are again clarified the lawful donning of chastity, the best and the most beautiful of all the garments that a husband and wife can wear on each other. What is your take now?

May take is you are making lawful what is clearly in Quran not lawful and for the bizarre reason of inability to control desire for about 12 hours from dawn to sunset; what people manage to control everyday when they go off to work.

Peace

Mazhar

There was no perception except that eating and drinking is permissible during the night and it is not permissible during the day. Perception of some regarding sex was that it is prohibited for whole month, day and night inclusive. The point was clarified that it had been made permissible during the nights to have sex with wife. Telling that it was made permissible does not mean it was earlier not permissible. It is about telling the laid down law. Minus the part of eating and drinking it reads

.........

Doing sex, eating and drinking are all physical acts permissible in the night upto a certain cutting moment. In other months sex is permitted not by reference to night but after Isha and before Fajr prayer. From sun set to time of Isha is excluded from night, while in Ramazan it is included in night for sex. Therefore three sex times mentioned in An Noor are separate from Ramzan.

unknownuser

Night by night, nutrition and reproduction are allowed. In the day these things are forbidden as they form part of the fast.

So where is the big argument? I fail to see it.

drfazl

Not about physical garments or walking the streets naked at night because it's dark (they are always essential).

Right! it is not physical garment but a garment to the mind - to be mentally pure from unlawful and forbidden sexual emotions is utmost essential during fasting; Allah has shown clearly the way towards such state of mind which people deny like hermits thus wronging their own souls. How will you protect your mind from such illegal emotions?

Physical clothes are different from metaphorical coverings.

So true!

Wadaraba Allahu mathalanqaryatan kanat aminatan mutma-innatanya/teeha rizquha raghadan min kulli makaninfakafarat bi-anAAumi Allahi faathaqaha Allahulibasa aljooAAi waalkhawfi bima kanooyasnaAAoona

There is no doubt with regard to various clothing para physically; the subject is not that whatsoever.

No, verse says permissible to you night of the fasting NOT permissible during the fasting.

Such are the Muthashabiha ayats whose real meanings Allah alone knows! the whole of 2 187 is mutashabiha. This is exactly the reason why this thread is going on; it is left for individuals to ponder over, think and act according to the clarity they receive from Allah

Have another look at the picture, imagine a pie and which half is permissible...
http//s5.tinypic.com/nej31x.jpg

When it comes to Quran, there is no imagination or assumptions; ponder over and seek from Allah the Guidance, sure!

My take is you are making lawful what is clearly in Quran not lawful and for the bizarre reason of inability to control desire for about 12 hours from dawn to sunset; what people manage to control everyday when they go off to work.

The word night in the verse is explicit and nullifies permissiveness during daytime. No, verse says permissible to you night of the fasting NOT permissible during the fasting.

There is both green signal and red signal in the statements above contradicting each other. Consider revising the take.

Peace

.

drfazl

May take is you are making lawful what is clearly in Quran not lawful and for the bizarre reason of inability to control desire for about 12 hours from dawn to sunset; what people manage to control everyday when they go off to work.

You want to remove the desire and don the garment of pure mind by abiding by the lawful allowance? Or you want to control the desire? This means your desires are heightened to the peak at the end of 12 hours at the end of which you go out of control; and the whole exercise of exercising and the very purpose of fasting has become null and void.

.

drfazl

Telling that it was made permissible does not mean it was earlier not permissible. It is about telling the laid down law. Minus the part of eating and drinking it reads

.........

Does it mean eating and drinking is prohibited in the night and not laid down in the law? If the fasting is related to the day time, where is the question of law for the night? Hence the verse starts with the clarification and clear the confusion created by the mischief mongers at the time. Then the rest of the ayat is with regard to the day time, full and full!

Doing sex, eating and drinking are all physical acts permissible in the night upto a certain cutting moment. In other months sex is permitted not by reference to night but after Isha and before Fajr prayer. From sun set to time of Isha is excluded from night, while in Ramazan it is included in night for sex. Therefore three sex times mentioned in An Noor are separate from Ramzan.

The red part is exclusively not linked to the ayat concerning fasting. Nobody claimed the three times mentioned in An Noor is part of Ramadhan.

.

Mazhar

The red part is exclusively not linked to the ayat concerning fasting. Nobody claimed the three times mentioned in An Noor is part of Ramadhan.

If this is not linked how would you reconcile the permission in the "night" of ramzan which starts immediately with sunset while Isha prayer is the night much later than sun set when night has darkened.

unknownuser

How will you protect your mind from such illegal emotions?

Ask yourself; suggestive emotions (noontime quickies during fasting) are not illegal.

Acting on them is; suggest Quran get the mind right!
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkhP8te-1RE

So true!

There is no doubt with regard to various clothing para physically; the subject is not that whatsoever.

Therefore, bringing up noontime putting off physical clothes is not whatsoever.

Such are the Muthashabiha ayats whose real meanings Allah alone knows! the whole of 2 187 is mutashabiha. This is exactly the reason why this thread is going on; it is left for individuals to ponder over, think and act according to the clarity they receive from Allah

2187 is very clear.

When it comes to Quran, there is no imagination or assumptions; ponder over and seek from Allah the Guidance, sure!

To imagine is to think, see a view whereas to assume is to accept without viewing. Quran always asks the viewer to imagine, think, and ponder all views.

There is both green signal and red signal in the statements above contradicting each other. Consider revising the take.

Contradiction is to assume permissible day of the fasting when the verse explicitly states permissible to you night of the fasting. Day and night are not same.

You want to remove the desire and don the garment of pure mind by abiding by the lawful allowance? Or you want to control the desire? This means your desires are heightened to the peak at the end of 12 hours at the end of which you go out of control; and the whole exercise of exercising and the very purpose of fasting has become null and void.

No, that is describing people who flip routines; sleep all day party all night.
The fasting time is an exercise about being ever mindful, perhaps it carries to other days.

Night by night, nutrition and reproduction are allowed. In the day these things are forbidden as they form part of the fast.

So where is the big argument? I fail to see it.

Good to see clear viewer.

Peace

Jango

DrFazl,

Truth is marching ahead and its matchless.GOD blessings upon you (and we cannot praise you...)
All the praise leads to the Allah the lord of the Oh universes...

Our Prayer is evaluated as follows...

"OH Lord! Teach us Quran and make us to live by that and make us to call you and You alone...And never make us unforgotful to you even during sleep so that we do not slip you my Lord"

"OH Lord make us humble and restore as the level of ADAM, the man whom do you adore an satified and taught every wisdom of the universe and brought in front of Angels and Jinis"

"OH Lord prepare us to the level of ADAM and we totally surrender to you and not by the way of Physical Posture but with Mental posture which is unseen"

"OH Lord You commanded human to Pray Silenty, humbly and seceretly without showing off..Oh Lord you make us to follow that"

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Lord we love You... You are giving food... Today I bought tiger prawns and you created for me... Lord let everone who is afraid of you in this universe eat
fatastic food....

Lord Make us to love u...

"Oh Lord make our life simpler, light and delightful"

"Oh lord make us to live as a sample to others so that we help others with ur command"

"Oh Lord make us to live with your satisfaction"

Love
Jango O0

Mazhar

Lord we love You... You are giving food... Today I bought tiger prawns and you created for me... Lord let everone who is afraid of you in this universe eat
fatastic food....

Lord Make us to love u...

"Oh Lord make our life simpler, light and delightful"

"Oh lord make us to live as a sample to others so that we help others with ur command"

"Oh Lord make us to live with your satisfaction"

This is the command

You exactly follow me in letter and spirit, without in between there being intervention/third party, Allah will love you people and for you He will overlook/forgive your wrong-doings". And Allah is The Forgiving/Overlooking, The Merciful.

drfazl

If this is not linked how would you reconcile the permission in the "night" of ramzan which starts immediately with sunset while Isha prayer is the night much later than sun set when night has darkened.

It is not about the 'night of ramzan' that we discuss but the 'night of fast'. And there shall never be a need for this confusion if the fast is day time or the night time. What does fajr and isha indicate? What are the meanings of these? Then what is salat? Though people here have discusses at length in various threads, none can conclude what those words actually mean? By asking these questions I do not mean to deviate from the topic of this thread but asked so only to make each of us think and feel that there is a lot to go on and on and on before we each individualize the meanings of the words and the verses of quran and start realizing the God and most obediently follow Him actualizing the 'salat'. So now before following fajr, isha and salat it is only pertinent to exchange the original opinions of each other.

.

drfazl

2187 is very clear. To imagine is to think, see a view whereas to assume is to accept without viewing. Quran always asks the viewer to imagine, think, and ponder all views.

Imagine means conjecturing a mental picture and taking it for granted without proof. Does Quran always endorse such way? And then ponder over the false views? In this way 2 187 is very clear to you. May Allah Bless.

drfazl