Is Rukooh and Sajood part of Salaat ?

SarahY

if ruku and sujood are different and not physical what are their meanings?
if sujood is submitted what is ruku ?

Truthseeker11
Ruku" as used in the qur'aan cannot be bowing. One can fall down kneeling but how can one fall down bowing?
you can drop your arms down? not exactly fall..

I think salat is the most contested topic amongst muslims, everyone will have their own definition.

salam

truthseeker11

Salaam Q_student

You quoted verse is

May I ask how do correlate this "Rukka3sujjadan" to salaat in this verse.Even the word of "salaat " has not been mentioned in this verse.

There seems to be some misunderstanding about what I was trying to say. Perhaps I have not been clear. I did not quote 4829 as evidence of ruku and sujood as part of salaat. I quoted it to prove that "rukka'an sujjadan" is something physical because they were SEEN doing it. It also proves that "ruku" can be part of "sujood" and vice versa. My understanding of this is kneeling and lowering the chin to the ground as one continuous action.

The other evidence that ruku can be physical in addition to mental is 3824 (not the evidence of it being part of salaat but evidence of it being physical). How can one fall down in ruku? Only by kneeling from standing position.

Another evidence of sujood being physical in addition to mental is 4102. How will the leader know "when they have performed sujood" if it is not a physical thing? If it is mental only in that sign then the leader has the power of telepathy or looking into people's hearts.

The evidence that "sujood" is part of salat is 4102.

Your second reference

has been explicitly separated from by another phrase .So it clearly shows that Rukoo3 is not a part of Salaat.

3 terms separated by a "wa" does not necessarily mean they are 3 completely different terms but the last two terms can be part of the first term. You yourself are saying that sujud and ruku are part of "qunoot" according to 343, even though they are separated by a "wa". Using the same logic, zakat and ruku are both part of salat according to 243. Salat when performed properly is actually bringing forth purification (atoo zakat) and ruku is also a part of salat. My question is that if the ruku in 243 is mental, then how can one "be humble with those who are being humble"? The only way one can do this is if one has the power of looking in others hearts.

In contrast the following verse shows that "Sajadah can be before Rukoo3"

This sajdah and rukoo3 is a part of "Qunoot" and sajadah is before Rukoo3
What do you think ?

Just because sujud is mentioned before ruku does not mean that one is before the other. They are both part of one continuous action of "kneeling and then lowering the chin to the ground".

According to your reasoning "sujud" and "ruku" are part of "qunoot" even though they are separated by a "wa". Using the same reasoning, why can't "zakat" and "ruku" be part of "salaat" in 243?

Salaamun alaik

truthseeker11

Salaam Sarah,

if ruku and sujood are different and not physical what are their meanings?
if sujood is submitted what is ruku ?

The primary meaning of "ruku" is humility and "sujud" is obedience. Majority of the times these terms are used in the qur'aan they refer to this mental meaning only. In some signs however they also mean a physical ruku and a physical sujud in addition to the mental, but even in those signs the mental component is of course more important. A physical ruku (kneeling) without associated mental humility is useless and is not a ruku. Similarly a physical sujud (kneeling and lowering the chin to the ground) without associated mental obedience/submission is useless and is not a sujud.

Truthseeker11 you can drop your arms down? not exactly fall..

Sure, but even then it is still "kharra"/falling down.

Salaamun alaik

Q_student

Salaam Sarah,

The primary meaning of "ruku" is humility and "sujud" is obedience. Majority of the times these terms are used in the qur'aan they refer to this mental meaning only. In some signs however they also mean a physical ruku and a physical sujud in addition to the mental, but even in those signs the mental component is of course more important. A physical ruku (kneeling) without associated mental humility is useless and is not a ruku. Similarly a physical sujud (kneeling and lowering the chin to the ground) without associated mental obedience/submission is useless and is not a sujud.

Sure, but even then it is still "kharra"/falling down.

Salaamun alaik

Brother salaam
You said

The primary meaning of "ruku" is humility and "sujud" is obedience.

Evidence please
Thanks

SarahY

if ruku/sujood is also spiritual and means obedience/submitting/humility then is the definition not much different from ibahadah?

Truthseker11 you mentioned the verse

(3824

What does wakharra mean? What do the last 3 words mean.. how do you define it. (or anyone else)

In the verse 4102 it appears that sajda has links to prayer I think it shows it as part of physical prayer too.

salam )

Samia

Brother salaam
You said
The primary meaning of "ruku" is humility and "sujud" is obedience.
Evidence please
Thanks

I think the primary meaning of "ruku3" is submission

Lisanul 3arab
( &#1576
. .

Sajad is mostly linked to humiliation

. .
. .
What I found interesting is that the orgn most linked to sujuud are the eyes
al-muheet
.
Al-3ain

There's also the meaning of submitting.

Q_student

I think the primary meaning of "ruku3" is submission

Lisanul 3arab
( &#1576
. .

Sajad is mostly linked to humiliation

. .
. .
What I found interesting is that the orgn most linked to sujuud are the eyes
al-muheet
.
Al-3ain

There's also the meaning of submitting.

Salaam Samia
First of all I really appreciate for your effort and such a nice post.

I do agree with you partially.
For the word "Raka3a" here is my search

( 2 / 59)
(&#1593 . 3.
( 21 / 122)

Exactly same words are given by Lane's lexicon.
So Ruku3 has Primary meaning as "To bend" so all of rest of meanings are secondary.

For Sajada

( 3 / 103)
(&#1583 . .
To lower oneself
To submit
Rest of meanings are secondary.
BTW Sajada is one of the contranyms ( ) and it also means "to stand erect".

Regards

Samia

Salaam Samia
First of all I really appreciate for your effort and such a nice post.

I do agree with you partially.

Thanks, student of qur'aan!
I am glad you, even partially, agree with me. May I now where we differ?
In another thought, I find that the quraan may have a word for submission, and it is not "islam".

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

From project root list (referencing Lane Lexicon)

= Ra-Kaf-Ayn = bowed, bent, incline, humility, humble yourself, lower the head.

= Siin-Jiim-Dal = lowly, humble, submissive, worship, adore, prostrate, make obeisance, lower/bend oneself down towards the ground, lower the head, to salute/honour/magnify, to pay respect, to stand up, to look continuedly and tranquily.

Also quoting from Lane Lexicon (Book 1, page 1307, under SJD)

"The sujud of inanimate things to God we understand, in the Kur, as denoting obedience to that whereto they
are made subservient"

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

How is obedience different from submission?

For me

Ruku = humility, with or without physical kneeling and lowering the head.
Sujud = humility, or submission, or obedience, with or without physical kneeling and lowering the chin to the ground.

Hence they are very similar and overlap, thus the term "rukka'an sujjadan".

truthseeker11

Peace Sarah,

if ruku/sujood is also spiritual and means obedience/submitting/humility then is the definition not much different from ibahadah?

"3ibaadah" is service/humility/obedience/submission/devotion so I agree that it is similar to ruku3/sujud, but I think "3ibaadah" is a broader term than "ruku3/sujood" and primarily means "to keep to inseparably" (meaning be in complete harmony with) as used in the great reading.

Ayn-Ba-Dal = serve, worship, adore, venerate, accept the impression of a thing, obey with submissiveness or humility, approve, apply, devote, obedience, slave, keep to inseparably, subdue, assemble together, enslave.

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

If the following sign is translated as "serve/worship me" then it would mean that The God needs service/worship. The God does not need anything. I would translate it as follows

5156 I did not create the jinn and the humans except to keep to inseparably with me.

OR

5156 I did not create the jinn and the humans except to be in complete harmony with me.

Truthseker11 you mentioned the verse

(3824

What does wakharra mean? What do the last 3 words mean.. how do you define it. (or anyone else)

"wakharra" = and he fell down

"wakharra raki3an waanaba" = and he fell down kneeling/being humble and repented/turned

In the verse 4102 it appears that sajda has links to prayer I think it shows it as part of physical prayer too.

I agree. It has to be a physical part of salaat in addition to mental, otherwise how will the leader know "when they have sajadoo"? The only way it can be mental only in 4102 is if the leader has power of reading minds or looking in other's hearts. There is no qur'aanic evidence that the leader in 4102 has power of reading minds or looking in people's hearts so "fa-itha sajadoo" has to be physical + mental in that sign, and a part of salaat.

Peace

Q_student

Peace everyone,

From project root list (referencing Lane Lexicon)

= Ra-Kaf-Ayn = bowed, bent, incline, humility, humble yourself, lower the head.

= Siin-Jiim-Dal = lowly, humble, submissive, worship, adore, prostrate, make obeisance, lower/bend oneself down towards the ground, lower the head, to salute/honour/magnify, to pay respect, to stand up, to look continuedly and tranquily.

Also quoting from Lane Lexicon (Book 1, page 1307, under SJD)

"The sujud of inanimate things to God we understand, in the Kur, as denoting obedience to that whereto they
are made subservient"

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

How is obedience different from submission?

For me

Ruku = humility, with or without physical kneeling and lowering the head.
Sujud = humility, or submission, or obedience, with or without physical kneeling and lowering the chin to the ground.

Hence they are very similar and overlap, thus the term "rukka'an sujjadan".

Peace brother
Absolutely no disagreement on these meanings ;
My disagreement is on your sentence of this

The primary meaning of "ruku" is humility and "sujud" is obedience

Brother simply highlighting secodary meanings does not make them "primary"
Brother this study quran is very "guide line" but it is not very elaborative.
Please refer to Lane's Lexicon and ponder over the very first meanings of Raka3a. This is supported by other classical arabic dicitonaries as I referred in my above post.

For the word sajada as I pointed out above means both as primary meaining
-Lowering
-submission
For Sajada

( 3 / 103)
(&#1583 . .
To lower oneself
To submit

This dictioanry by Ibne Faaris i.e "Miqaayees ul Lugha " is the best book on Etymology .

Regards

truthseeker11

Peace brother,

Absolutely no disagreement on these meanings ;
My disagreement is on your sentence of this

Brother simply highlighting secodary meanings does not make them "primary"
Brother this study quran is very "guide line" but it is not very elaborative.
Please refer to Lane's Lexicon and ponder over the very first meanings of Raka3a. This is supported by other classical arabic dicitonaries as I referred in my above post.

For the word sajada as I pointed out above means both as primary meaining
-Lowering
-submission
For Sajada

( 3 / 103)
(&#1583 . .
To lower oneself
To submit

This dictioanry by Ibne Faaris i.e "Miqaayees ul Lugha " is the best book on Etymology .

Thank you for the clarification.

Regards and The God bless.

almarh0m

Salamun alaykum

Since the topic of this thread is " is Rukoo and sujood part of Salat?" , my answer is definitely yes . However , my own understanding of Rukoo=Respect and Sujood=Obey . So to me , the three altogether means as "The Commitment to Respect and Obey ( The Law ) wherever I am" .

Peace

almarh0m

Samia

Salamun alaykum

Since the topic of this thread is " is Rukoo and sujood part of Salat?" , my answer is definitely yes . However , my own understanding of Rukoo=Respect and Sujood=Obey . So to me , the three altogether means as "The Commitment to Respect and Obey ( The Law ) wherever I am" .

Peace

almarh0m

peace
Smart response

SarahY

I don?t think my question got answered..

If Ruku=Respect and Sujood=Obey and Ibada isn?t defined as worship but as submission, what?s the difference between ibada and sujood?

6619

salaam all
Is Rukooh and sajood part of physical salaat or not ? Any Quranic proof please.I am confused about it.

Salaam,

According to Quran, there are five daily prayers, and it is a physical prayer including ruku and sujud.

The word Salawat occurs symbolically 5 times.
Turn your faces "towards the Sacred Masjid" occurs five times.
The key expression "aqimu al Salaat" occurs 5 times" and has a deep meaning.
In "al salaat" (Gematrical value 162), We pray God There are 6221 verses from the first to the last occurrence of God. 6221 is the the 810 prime number = 5 x 162.
See the deep connection between the word Salaat and the sequence "sajada" up to the end of sura 9, which symbolizes one day of Salaat in the Quran
Summary http//www.islamrevolution.org/salaatsummary.htm
Full article http//www.islamrevolution.org/salaatinquran.htm
Bottom line Salaat is coded mathematically throughout Quran in many ways. "la elaha ela Allah" is the cornerstone of the Salaat structure as defined in Quran.

God bless.

Pierre

Wakas

I don?t think my question got answered..

If Ruku=Respect and Sujood=Obey and Ibada isn?t defined as worship but as submission, what?s the difference between ibada and sujood?

I think sometimes it is difficult to pin down a word in one language to only one word in another language. It is perhaps better to read through the occurrences of the word to get an idea of the meaning. I believe the technical term for this is 'conceptual field' or 'semantic field' of word(s).
Also, I am not convinced one Arabic word in The Quran has a meaning which no other Arabic word in The Quran can have, or it means the exact same thing in all occurrences.

Anyways... having said that, my understanding of the terms so far are as follows

ibadat ~ servitude
sjd ~ give recognition / to acknowledge
rk3 ~ incline/humility

SarahY

Thanks for your reply

Yes I agree it is difficult to pin down a word to one other word in another language sometimes you can?t exactly find the word or maybe that?s just my limited vocabulary skills?

I think it?s not right for people to say ?physically? bowing and prostrating is wrong. As far as I know when Islam came to the Arabs they were basically pagans bowing down to idols they were showing their ?servitude? in that way. Now some muslims show some sort of recognition of God in a similar manner. For someone to bow down it?s a show of respect/humility right? Take for example Taekwondo or any other martial arts, the head bow or bowing to knees whatever it is.. it?s a form of humility towards greater hierarchy. Maybe you might argue it?s a social discourse but so is so many things in life.. People make out culture/traditions is a bad thing but inevitably it makes who we are, that?s not to say we accept all that is part of the culture/traditional..

(4913)

This is Asad?s understanding?

4913 (Asad) O men! Behold, We have created you all out of a male and a female, and have made you into nations and tribes, so that you might come to know one another. Verily, the noblest of you in the sight of God is the one who is most deeply conscious of Him. Behold, God is all-knowing, all-aware.

So we?re all created different and have different cultures and practices so we can learn from another and at the end of the day the best of us is who is conscious of God. So to me that?s one who is aiming to strive towards good by being aware of what God wants from us. For SOME people physically praying works for them it helps them become conscious of God.

It?s difficult not to be bias I mean I can?t see why it can?t be physical but then if I take into consideration the sujood and ruku meaning of recognition, submission or humility. Then the question is how do you know that, where did that meaning come from.. They can fit in the context. Can words have dual meanings?

And if this is not part of salat then it isn?t a physical thing. it doesn?t seem so difficult to recognise or acknowledge beliefs. Does not a muslim do this by claiming themselves a muslim? And how does one show humility towards it? is it supposed to be about everyday character? Or is it belief and serving God?

Just random thoughts?
Salam

Wakas

AQ = al quran

I have mentioned in the past that grouping something (i.e. an act) as purely physical or purely mental is absurd
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597865.msg193643#msg193643

I think we can all agree that most acts have a mental as well as a physical component. It is also clear from AQ that what is on the inside outranks what is on the outside.

Similarly with "ibadah" (commonly translated as worship, but is more akin to servitude). When one serves their master, their sayings and actions are done in accordance to their master's will, but in doing so, the actions/sayings eventually come to take precedence from an outside-looking-in perspective, hence not the mindset but the acts become "ibadah", hence a more ritualistic approach. Hence a subtle shift to translations using "worship".

It seems to me Traditional Islam has opted to go down the superficial/ritualistic approach, as anyone can observe when it is commonly said whomever sports a beard is more pious, or whomever wears a headscarf or whomever prays 5 times a day etc. Having a preference for superficiality is not a Quranic teaching.

It is a proven FACT that the way AQ uses sjd it weights it in favour of NOT meaning physical prostration. You will never find anyone or any article analysing ALL occurrences of this word trying to prove it primarily means physical prostration in The Quran, or at least, I have not seen it so far. Similarly with rk3.

Personally, I dont mind if someone wants to bow or prostrate. When I make duaa, I can sometimes be found doing so in a kneeling position. It is not because I happen to think God is in the direction I am kneeling, it is, as you say, a small show of humility/respect.

The problem only arises when someone says XYZ is true and The Quran supports this or proves this. If they say this, then anyone has the right to ask for evidence. This is when discussion normally ensues.

As to where the meanings came from, it is no doubt that words are used in many ways in a language and by people, and this is recorded in dictionaries, but the question on our minds should be how does AQ use them? That is key.

I dont understand much of your last paragraph, sorry.

Joe_Betik

salaamun alaykum

'salat' is among the subjects that will never be easy to tackle.

the question
"Is Rukooh and Sajood part of Salaat ?"

my personal comprehension

'ruku''
to recognize ; or
to acknowledge

'sujood'
to be respectful ; or
to revere

'salat'
relationship ; or
connection ; or
bond

when 'salat' is 'relationship/connection/bond' then of course it entails 'recognition/acknowledgment' and 'respect/reverence'.

when the 'salat/relationship/bond' is with God, then it is only proper that one understands, recognizes and revere this 'salat/relationship/bond'. the introduction to this very idea on the 'salat/relationship/bond' between man and God is in al-'alaq. and in the same surah, we learn about the 'performance/establishment' of the 'salat/relationship/bond' with God. in others we learn about 'salat/relationship/bond' with or among God's creations (people and birds included).

Allatheena yu/minoona bialghaybi wayuqeemoona alssalata wamimma razaqnahum yunfiqoona
They are those who believe in the ghayb/hidden, and establish/correct/honor the relationship, and whatever We gave them, they give out.
Wa-ith qulna lilmala-ikati osjudoo li-adama fasajadoo illa ibleesa aba waistakbara* wakana mina alkafireena
And then We said to the ?malaikat?, ?You be respectful to Adam!? Thus they paid their respect, except ?iblis?/the ego, it refused and/since it was proud, and it was the disbelieving.
Waaqeemoo alssalata waatoo alzzakata wairkaAAoo maAAa alrrakiAAeena
And you (pl.) establish/correct/honor the relationship/connection/bond, and produce/achieve/attain the purity in heart, and bow/acknowledge/recognize together with the bowing/acknowledging/recognizing.
Laysa albirra an tuwalloo wujoohakum qibala almashriqi waalmaghribi walakinna albirra man amana biAllahi waalyawmi al-akhiri waalmala-ikati waalkitabi waalnnabiyyeena waata almala AAala hubbihi thawee alqurba waalyatama waalmasakeena waibna alssabeeli waalssa-ileena wafee alrriqabi waaqama alssalata waata alzzakata waalmoofoona biAAahdihim itha AAahadoo waalssabireena fee alba/sa-i waalddarra-i waheena alba/si ola-ika allatheena sadaqoo waola-ika humu almuttaqoona
It is not righteous that you (pl.) direct your attention toward the east/sunrise/unveiled and the west/sunset/veiled, but then righteous is of one who believes in God, the last day, the 'malaikat', the message, and the prophets, and of one who gives his possessions out of love to close relatives, the orphans, the poor, the wayfarers, the beggars, and those in debts, and of one who corrects the relationship/connection/bond, and produce/achieve/attain the purity in heart, and the trustworthy in promises that they have made, and the patience in courage when in distress and at times of hardship. These are people who speak the truth, since these people are the enlightened.
Hafithoo AAala alssalawati waalssalati alwusta waqoomoo lillahi qaniteena
You (pl.) take care of the relationship/connection/bond since relationship/connection/bond is the core , and constantly establish/correct/honor in honor of God.

the above should also spur you to investigate the reasons why 'salat' is 'da'imoon.'

so, the 'salat/relationship/bond' is something that should be 'recognized/acknowledged' and 'respected/revered'.

incidently, 'masjid' is 'reverence', while 'masjidi alharam' is 'forbidden reverence'. 'qiblah' is 'the method/way/means to approach God', and 'shatr' is 'directing' which is the 'masjidi alharam', for God is neither above in the sky nor residing in a building constructed by a creation of His. 'the method/way/means to approach God' is by 'baytu allah' or 'meditating on God'.

i hope the above (plus the quoted verses of al-baqarah) is sufficient to explain the query.

as always, please do not take my personal comprehension for the truth. the above is posted as something to be pondered on. make your litmus test if you will, but above all please seek for God's guidance. He is the Teacher who will attain you to an understanding or a comprehension that will be to your liking and won't be burdensome to you. He is compassionately merciful indeed. seek, for He is the reference. He will guide you accordingly, insha-Allah.

if you are happy and contented (because it is the truth to you) with performing the ritual prayers, then please go ahead. i will never ever say that you are wrong, for God has allowed (by His leave) you to be happy and contented with ritual prayers. for me, to wrong you would therefore be too audacious of me, and it would surely be an invite for God's wrath. a'uzu billah. indeed, for you is your responsibility/accountability, and for me mine.

may God guide us on the straight/correct/honorable path. insha-Allah.

mohammed noh