Is Rukooh and Sajood part of Salaat ?
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Peace,
I stand and then do the sujud. The kneeling and then lowering the chin to the ground is part of the sujud. I find it impossible to lower the chin to the ground without kneeling first. There is evidence for both standing and physical sujud as part of salaat. If there is no physical sujud, then how will the one leading the salaat know "when they have prostrated" according to 4102?
The reason kneeling is part of the sujud is because of the phrase used in the qur'aan "rukka'an sujjadan" without a "wa" in between (4829), so actually "ruku" is part of "sujud" and vice versa, i.e. they are inseparable. That is why I said there is some evidence of "ruku" in salaat also.
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Peace,
I stand and then do the sujud. The kneeling and then lowering the chin to the ground is part of the sujud. I find it impossible to lower the chin to the ground without kneeling first. There is evidence for both standing and physical sujud as part of salaat. If there is no physical sujud, then how will the one leading the salaat know "when they have prostrated" according to 4102?
The reason kneeling is part of the sujud is because of the phrase used in the qur'aan "rukka'an sujjadan" without a "wa" in between, so actually "ruku" is part of "sujud" and vice versa, i.e. they are inseparable. That is why I said there is some evidence of "ruku" in salaat also.
Salaam brother
The word "sajadoo" in this verse means mental submission not the physical one. Is this not so? Is there any evidence that it is physical one.Would you please give reference for use of "Rukka3Sujjadan" collectively has come with reference to "Salaat"?
Thank -
Peace,
What is the meaning of "rukka'an sujjadan" in 4829? It is not describing a separate ruku and a separate sujood. They are part of each other. The fact that they are SEEN "rukka'an sujjadan" in 4829 shows it is physical and is one entity, not two separate ones. Also ruku and purification both are mentioned in association with salaat in 243. How can you be humble with those who are humble according to 243? Can you see in people's hearts?
In 4102, how will the leader know "when they have prostrated", if it is not physical? Does he have the power of telepathy or looking into people's hearts?
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Peace,
What is the meaning of "rukka'an sujjadan" in 4829? It is not describing a separate ruku and a separate sujood. They are part of each other. The fact that they are SEEN "rukka'an sujjadan" in 4829 shows it is physical and is one entity, not two separate ones. Also ruku and purification both are mentioned in association with salaat in 243. How can you be humble with those who are humble according to 243? Can you see in people's hearts?
In 4102, how will the leader know "when they have prostrated", if it is not physical? Does he have the power of telepathy or looking into people's hearts?
Salaam Truthseeker
You quoted verse is
May I ask how do correlate this "Rukka3sujjadan" to salaat in this verse.Even the word of "salaat " has not been mentioned in this verse.
Your second reference
has been explicitly separated from by another phrase .So it clearly shows that Rukoo3 is not a part of Salaat.
In contrast the following verse shows that "Sajadah can be before Rukoo3"
This sajdah and rukoo3 is a part of "Qunoot" and sajadah is before Rukoo3
What do you think ? -
Peace,
How can you be humble with those who are humble according to 243? Can you see in people's hearts?
In 4102, how will the leader know "when they have prostrated", if it is not physical? Does he have the power of telepathy or looking into people's hearts?
2 43
And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and bow down with those who bow down.Bow down shall mean being humble by all possible means. Being humble before people with who our life is involved is absolutely necessary for the dignity. Being humble with mercy and grace in the hearts between wife and husband; between relatives and friends; between boss and servants; between employers and employees and so on is a good gesture which attitude of humility Allah loves in any person be he a christian, a jew, a hindu or a muslim. This is prayer in life; prayer in action! What Allah does not like is the people who only act before Allah by bending their bodies and hanging their heads down, murmur something 3 times; and then go away turning their backs to the Ka'aba and Allah thinking that they had gotten scot-free. By doing the acting of bowing down we are genuinely ignorant of prayer. Get down in action, haply we might not be hypocrites anymore. Among the mankind muslims do the physical bowing and acting before Allah; while the other religious people are showing humility as Allah had ordained upon the mankind, thus gearing themselves into action, very prayerfully! This is the reason why Allah had placed all other religious people high above the muslims.
68 35
Shall We then treat the People of Faith like the People of Sin?Behold! Among the mankind Allah has disgraced in the face of the world as terrorists only those who claim themselves to be Muslims, before even Allah grants them the status of dignity. When people see beard and cap immediately there is the red alert! What a tragedy! It seems the actors of ritual prayers are accursed! It is time we got down in action as other religious people do! Allah has created only a single nation after all. Wherever you find good practice follow it at least in those actions, abiding. May Allah help and guide us into unifying prayer; not in uniform prayer.
May Allah Forgive us and make us join the religious, dutifully abiding people among the mankind and let us pray He Make Us Muslims.
Peace.
.
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if ruku and sujood are different and not physical what are their meanings?
if sujood is submitted what is ruku ?Truthseeker11
Ruku" as used in the qur'aan cannot be bowing. One can fall down kneeling but how can one fall down bowing?
you can drop your arms down? not exactly fall..I think salat is the most contested topic amongst muslims, everyone will have their own definition.
salam
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Salaam Q_student
You quoted verse is
May I ask how do correlate this "Rukka3sujjadan" to salaat in this verse.Even the word of "salaat " has not been mentioned in this verse.
There seems to be some misunderstanding about what I was trying to say. Perhaps I have not been clear. I did not quote 4829 as evidence of ruku and sujood as part of salaat. I quoted it to prove that "rukka'an sujjadan" is something physical because they were SEEN doing it. It also proves that "ruku" can be part of "sujood" and vice versa. My understanding of this is kneeling and lowering the chin to the ground as one continuous action.
The other evidence that ruku can be physical in addition to mental is 3824 (not the evidence of it being part of salaat but evidence of it being physical). How can one fall down in ruku? Only by kneeling from standing position.
Another evidence of sujood being physical in addition to mental is 4102. How will the leader know "when they have performed sujood" if it is not a physical thing? If it is mental only in that sign then the leader has the power of telepathy or looking into people's hearts.
The evidence that "sujood" is part of salat is 4102.
Your second reference
has been explicitly separated from by another phrase .So it clearly shows that Rukoo3 is not a part of Salaat.
3 terms separated by a "wa" does not necessarily mean they are 3 completely different terms but the last two terms can be part of the first term. You yourself are saying that sujud and ruku are part of "qunoot" according to 343, even though they are separated by a "wa". Using the same logic, zakat and ruku are both part of salat according to 243. Salat when performed properly is actually bringing forth purification (atoo zakat) and ruku is also a part of salat. My question is that if the ruku in 243 is mental, then how can one "be humble with those who are being humble"? The only way one can do this is if one has the power of looking in others hearts.
In contrast the following verse shows that "Sajadah can be before Rukoo3"
This sajdah and rukoo3 is a part of "Qunoot" and sajadah is before Rukoo3
What do you think ?Just because sujud is mentioned before ruku does not mean that one is before the other. They are both part of one continuous action of "kneeling and then lowering the chin to the ground".
According to your reasoning "sujud" and "ruku" are part of "qunoot" even though they are separated by a "wa". Using the same reasoning, why can't "zakat" and "ruku" be part of "salaat" in 243?
Salaamun alaik
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Salaam Sarah,
if ruku and sujood are different and not physical what are their meanings?
if sujood is submitted what is ruku ?The primary meaning of "ruku" is humility and "sujud" is obedience. Majority of the times these terms are used in the qur'aan they refer to this mental meaning only. In some signs however they also mean a physical ruku and a physical sujud in addition to the mental, but even in those signs the mental component is of course more important. A physical ruku (kneeling) without associated mental humility is useless and is not a ruku. Similarly a physical sujud (kneeling and lowering the chin to the ground) without associated mental obedience/submission is useless and is not a sujud.
Truthseeker11 you can drop your arms down? not exactly fall..
Sure, but even then it is still "kharra"/falling down.
Salaamun alaik
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Salaam Sarah,
The primary meaning of "ruku" is humility and "sujud" is obedience. Majority of the times these terms are used in the qur'aan they refer to this mental meaning only. In some signs however they also mean a physical ruku and a physical sujud in addition to the mental, but even in those signs the mental component is of course more important. A physical ruku (kneeling) without associated mental humility is useless and is not a ruku. Similarly a physical sujud (kneeling and lowering the chin to the ground) without associated mental obedience/submission is useless and is not a sujud.
Sure, but even then it is still "kharra"/falling down.
Salaamun alaik
Brother salaam
You saidThe primary meaning of "ruku" is humility and "sujud" is obedience.
Evidence please
Thanks -
if ruku/sujood is also spiritual and means obedience/submitting/humility then is the definition not much different from ibahadah?
Truthseker11 you mentioned the verse
(3824
What does wakharra mean? What do the last 3 words mean.. how do you define it. (or anyone else)
In the verse 4102 it appears that sajda has links to prayer I think it shows it as part of physical prayer too.
salam )
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Brother salaam
You said
The primary meaning of "ruku" is humility and "sujud" is obedience.
Evidence please
ThanksI think the primary meaning of "ruku3" is submission
Lisanul 3arab
( ب
. .Sajad is mostly linked to humiliation
. .
. .
What I found interesting is that the orgn most linked to sujuud are the eyes
al-muheet
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Al-3ainThere's also the meaning of submitting.
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I think the primary meaning of "ruku3" is submission
Lisanul 3arab
( ب
. .Sajad is mostly linked to humiliation
. .
. .
What I found interesting is that the orgn most linked to sujuud are the eyes
al-muheet
.
Al-3ainThere's also the meaning of submitting.
Salaam Samia
First of all I really appreciate for your effort and such a nice post.I do agree with you partially.
For the word "Raka3a" here is my search-
( 2 / 59)
(ع . 3. -
( 21 / 122)
Exactly same words are given by Lane's lexicon.
So Ruku3 has Primary meaning as "To bend" so all of rest of meanings are secondary.For Sajada
- ( 3 / 103)
(د . .
To lower oneself
To submit
Rest of meanings are secondary.
BTW Sajada is one of the contranyms ( ) and it also means "to stand erect".
Regards
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Salaam Samia
First of all I really appreciate for your effort and such a nice post.I do agree with you partially.
Thanks, student of qur'aan!
I am glad you, even partially, agree with me. May I now where we differ?
In another thought, I find that the quraan may have a word for submission, and it is not "islam". -
Peace everyone,
From project root list (referencing Lane Lexicon)
= Ra-Kaf-Ayn = bowed, bent, incline, humility, humble yourself, lower the head.
= Siin-Jiim-Dal = lowly, humble, submissive, worship, adore, prostrate, make obeisance, lower/bend oneself down towards the ground, lower the head, to salute/honour/magnify, to pay respect, to stand up, to look continuedly and tranquily.
Also quoting from Lane Lexicon (Book 1, page 1307, under SJD)
"The sujud of inanimate things to God we understand, in the Kur, as denoting obedience to that whereto they
are made subservient"http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
How is obedience different from submission?
For me
Ruku = humility, with or without physical kneeling and lowering the head.
Sujud = humility, or submission, or obedience, with or without physical kneeling and lowering the chin to the ground.Hence they are very similar and overlap, thus the term "rukka'an sujjadan".
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Peace Sarah,
if ruku/sujood is also spiritual and means obedience/submitting/humility then is the definition not much different from ibahadah?
"3ibaadah" is service/humility/obedience/submission/devotion so I agree that it is similar to ruku3/sujud, but I think "3ibaadah" is a broader term than "ruku3/sujood" and primarily means "to keep to inseparably" (meaning be in complete harmony with) as used in the great reading.
Ayn-Ba-Dal = serve, worship, adore, venerate, accept the impression of a thing, obey with submissiveness or humility, approve, apply, devote, obedience, slave, keep to inseparably, subdue, assemble together, enslave.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
If the following sign is translated as "serve/worship me" then it would mean that The God needs service/worship. The God does not need anything. I would translate it as follows
5156 I did not create the jinn and the humans except to keep to inseparably with me.
OR
5156 I did not create the jinn and the humans except to be in complete harmony with me.
Truthseker11 you mentioned the verse
(3824
What does wakharra mean? What do the last 3 words mean.. how do you define it. (or anyone else)
"wakharra" = and he fell down
"wakharra raki3an waanaba" = and he fell down kneeling/being humble and repented/turned
In the verse 4102 it appears that sajda has links to prayer I think it shows it as part of physical prayer too.
I agree. It has to be a physical part of salaat in addition to mental, otherwise how will the leader know "when they have sajadoo"? The only way it can be mental only in 4102 is if the leader has power of reading minds or looking in other's hearts. There is no qur'aanic evidence that the leader in 4102 has power of reading minds or looking in people's hearts so "fa-itha sajadoo" has to be physical + mental in that sign, and a part of salaat.
Peace
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Peace everyone,
From project root list (referencing Lane Lexicon)
= Ra-Kaf-Ayn = bowed, bent, incline, humility, humble yourself, lower the head.
= Siin-Jiim-Dal = lowly, humble, submissive, worship, adore, prostrate, make obeisance, lower/bend oneself down towards the ground, lower the head, to salute/honour/magnify, to pay respect, to stand up, to look continuedly and tranquily.
Also quoting from Lane Lexicon (Book 1, page 1307, under SJD)
"The sujud of inanimate things to God we understand, in the Kur, as denoting obedience to that whereto they
are made subservient"http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
How is obedience different from submission?
For me
Ruku = humility, with or without physical kneeling and lowering the head.
Sujud = humility, or submission, or obedience, with or without physical kneeling and lowering the chin to the ground.Hence they are very similar and overlap, thus the term "rukka'an sujjadan".
Peace brother
Absolutely no disagreement on these meanings ;
My disagreement is on your sentence of thisThe primary meaning of "ruku" is humility and "sujud" is obedience
Brother simply highlighting secodary meanings does not make them "primary"
Brother this study quran is very "guide line" but it is not very elaborative.
Please refer to Lane's Lexicon and ponder over the very first meanings of Raka3a. This is supported by other classical arabic dicitonaries as I referred in my above post.For the word sajada as I pointed out above means both as primary meaining
-Lowering
-submission
For Sajada- ( 3 / 103)
(د . .
To lower oneself
To submit
This dictioanry by Ibne Faaris i.e "Miqaayees ul Lugha " is the best book on Etymology .
Regards
- ( 3 / 103)
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Peace brother,
Absolutely no disagreement on these meanings ;
My disagreement is on your sentence of thisBrother simply highlighting secodary meanings does not make them "primary"
Brother this study quran is very "guide line" but it is not very elaborative.
Please refer to Lane's Lexicon and ponder over the very first meanings of Raka3a. This is supported by other classical arabic dicitonaries as I referred in my above post.For the word sajada as I pointed out above means both as primary meaining
-Lowering
-submission
For Sajada- ( 3 / 103)
(د . .
To lower oneself
To submit
This dictioanry by Ibne Faaris i.e "Miqaayees ul Lugha " is the best book on Etymology .
Thank you for the clarification.
Regards and The God bless.
- ( 3 / 103)
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Salamun alaykum
Since the topic of this thread is " is Rukoo and sujood part of Salat?" , my answer is definitely yes . However , my own understanding of Rukoo=Respect and Sujood=Obey . So to me , the three altogether means as "The Commitment to Respect and Obey ( The Law ) wherever I am" .
Peace
almarh0m
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Salamun alaykum
Since the topic of this thread is " is Rukoo and sujood part of Salat?" , my answer is definitely yes . However , my own understanding of Rukoo=Respect and Sujood=Obey . So to me , the three altogether means as "The Commitment to Respect and Obey ( The Law ) wherever I am" .
Peace
almarh0m
peace
Smart response