Verb taqsuroo in 4:101.
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Wakas
- There is no clear example of anyone doing this physically in AQ when hearing God's words.
AQ says those particular people did it rather than anyone.
- To do this whenever we heard God's words it would be impractical/dangerous.
Prostration is definitely phisical as is examplified by prosrtation to the sun and the moon (2724, 4137), but the expression to the chin is idiomatic. Samia (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15172.75)
108 And they "Glory to our Lord! The promise of our Lord must be fulfilled
109 And they fall down to their chins weeping and it increases their "humility" ,
It is clear that "fall to the hin" is an (idiomatic) expression and that their reaction was that of being humble ( ; sajada kasha3a to be humble/fearful)- 4102 already tells us that salat ends upon sjd, so if salat involves reciting or listening to God's words (which is what AQ strongly implies) then pretty much as soon as salat began, we would have to fall to the chin in sjd, thus ending the salat as per 4102, meaning it would last less than 20 seconds!
Believers are people of common sense to remember God by sitting long enough after sjd before quitting salaat. Even if you refuse that they have that much common sense, there is standing to rememeber God in salaat's 1 satanding + 1 sjd practice in 4102.
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ayPeace
In fact sister Samia put only one part of the meaning of the word "sajada". I do not know the reason why she avoided the second part of the meaning. This word has both meanings
1Humbleness /Submissiveness
2Bending-
( 1 / 12166)
to prostrate oneself (in worship), genuflect, kneel (with the forehead touching the ground), bow (down), throw oneself down, fall down in adoration; to worship (God) -
( 3 / 133)
(د .
Regards
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Peace
In fact sister Samia put only one part of the meaning of the word "sajada". I do not know the reason why she avoided the second part of the meaning.I do not know why you are putting this here. This will derail the thread further to the meaning of sjd.
But yes, I look into the root meaning, and any meaning that is logically derived from it, not from a preconception. Did the dictionaris give context for the usage of this word other from "religion"? It's interesting to mention that in Sudan, sjd is also used to describe the state of someone in a terminal illness or in a state of very old age, as if saying they are submitting to death. It reflects the real meaning of the verb. In the quraan we are told that the sun and the planets did sujuud. How did they bend? This word has been extensively discussed.
Learn how to make use of dictionaries and how to recognize the preconceptions in them. Don't make them your mullas. -
I do not know why you are putting this here. This will derail the thread further to the meaning of sjd.
But yes, I look into the root meaning, and any meaning that is logically derived from it, not from a preconception. Did the dictionaris give context for the usage of this word other from "religion"? It's interesting to mention that in Sudan, sjd is also used to describe the state of someone in a terminal illness or in a state of very old age, as if saying they are submitting to death. It reflects the real meaning of the verb. In the quraan we are told that the sun and the planets did sujuud. How did they bend? This word has been extensively discussed.
Learn how to make use of dictionaries and how to recognize the preconceptions in them. Don't make them your mullas.Dear sister
I will not comment who does not know how to consult dictionary or interpret it. I can give examples but I will not do it.These are not my mullahs. But I hate to issue Quranic Certificates to PROSTITUTION in the name of Quran and tacit support to this idea.
Quran is in Arabic Language for understanding. It cannot afford home made meanings and ideas.
Regards -
peace Hasan,
AQ = Al Quran
AQ says those particular people did it rather than anyone.
Ahh, so you are implying it was only specific to them, and not relevant for others? Hmm, for sake of argument lets say thats true, what do you make of
And when the Qur'an is being read unto them, they do not sjd.
The only people who believe in Our revelations are those whom when they are reminded by them, they fall sjd, and they glorify the praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.
According to you, are we meant to physically prostrate whenever hearing AQ? Yes or no?
Or is this specific to them too?Prostration is definitely phisical as is examplified by prosrtation to the sun and the moon (2724, 4137)
This is a commonly cited example in support of prostration. What is seemingly not realised is that several Classical Arabic meanings of sjd can fit in these occurrences, making physical prostration not the only option, e.g. submissive, worship, adore, make obeisance, to salute/honour/magnify, to pay respect.
Please note, "ila" means to/for.
Re 2724
AQ clarifies it was their "deeds" (plural) that were made pleasing/good/acceptable/fair to them by "satan".
what diverted/prevented her and her people was their ibadat/servitude of other than God
Note the difference in the wording between found/wajad sjd in 2724, and Joseph seeing/raay sjd in 124.In other words, the rest of the Quranic evidence is against sjd/prostration in this verse. Your only evidence is the word can theoretically mean prostration here. That is also likely why no-one has (as far as I'm aware) and likely never will write an article analysing the occurrences of sjd in AQ attempting to prove it means physical prostration, as they know or would discover they have so little "evidence" to work with the article would end up disproving their case.
Believers are people of common sense to remember God by sitting long enough after sjd before quitting salaat. Even if you refuse that they have that much common sense, there is standing to rememeber God in salaat's 1 satanding + 1 sjd practice in 4102.
Are you implying that people are expected to have more common sense than the wording of AQ???? This is a conceptual impossibility/contradiction.
Allow me re-state what I said in no uncertain terms
The evidence from AQ is heavily weighted in favour of sjd NOT meaning a physical prostration. This is FACT. The main point in the examples you bring is that prostration is not the only possibility, however in the other examples AQ can bring it is an impossibility for it to mean prostration, and that is not even including other verses where it is unlikely. People can make of this what they wish.I recommend reading the following thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7428.0
In any case, at least we can agree that "sjd to the chin" is an idiomatic expression.
To summarise, from my studies, sjd is an actionable representation of "hearing and obeying" or "giving recognition/acknowledgement", whatever form it takes (unless being used idiomatically of course). If we may think outside the box for a moment have you ever observed a tree swaying in the direction the wind takes it in? This is my conceptual understanding of sjd. I believe this is akin to the example given in AQ to do with shadows and sjd . Of course, God knows best.
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http//www.19.org/index.php?aid=276
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Dear sister
I will not comment who does not know how to consult dictionary or interpret it. I can give examples but I will not do it.These are not my mullahs. But I hate to issue Quranic Certificates to PROSTITUTION in the name of Quran and tacit support to this idea.
Quran is in Arabic Language for understanding. It cannot afford home made meanings and ideas.
RegardsI consider this a baseles attack and defamation. I demand that you give your evidence where I gave such certificate, implictly or explicitly.
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http//www.19.org/index.php?aid=276
The above article does not prove "prostration" and I dont think it is an attempt to. It seems to be about proving a physical component is possible in sjd.
However, the article brought up one point that could have interesting consequences, which I had not realised until now after putting the peices together.
The correlation (or making equivalent) of
the sjd and fall/khrr sjd to/for him
AND
the sjd and fall/khrr sjdBefore discussing the consequences, 124 and 12100 needs clarified, because in some translations (e.g. M.Asad, free-minds) they say/imply Joseph and his parents fell sjd to Him (as in God), but this is not correct according to 124 because in his dream Joseph saw sjd to/for/before him, not God. Some take it to mean Joseph's parents fell sjd to/for Joseph, but this is also not correct, because the plural is used for khrr, meaning 3 or more, and since in 1293 it clearly implies those who returned to be in the company of Joseph were his family (e.g. brothers) and parents, likely 11 family members and the sun and moon in his dream being symbolic for his parents, we can see why the plural is used. Interestingly, M.Asad in his notes on 12100 says earlier "scholars" said it cannot be sjd/prostrate to Joseph, as it is inconceivable that Joseph would have allowed this. Also see 2725. Can we all see what is going on here?
Also, whenever fall/khrr is used in the context of revelation, it is obviously idiomatic. Therefore, if the case is strong for non-prostration usage in "fall sjd", we can then apply this to 12100 and see what happens.
Since Joseph was in authority and in a position to issue commands to be followed, similar to the examples for God and His revelations, "fall sjd" can mean the exact same thing in both cases. That is why the earlier "scholars" cited by M.Asad had difficulty reconciling a physical prostration to Joseph, as this is inconceivable conceptually for them, they opted for "fall sjd" to Him (as in God). Since we know this is blatantly incorrect according to 124, we are left with only one option "they fell sjd to/for Joseph". Of course, earlier "scholars" may not have considered the non-prostration option or tried to explain their understanding away*, due to their bias/upbringing that taught them sjd means physical prostration.
Essentially, the traditional understanding is treating an idiomatic expression as literal sometimes (i.e. when it suits them) and non-literal other times (i.e. when it suits them). This haphazrd manner is not the word/logical precision par excellence that is AQ.*see altafsir.com in which Tafsir al-Jalalayn says "fell sjd" means a bow and not a prostration. Elswhere sjd means prostration however.
Now onto the consequences of the point raised in the article, which I will quote below
"Most times it is preceded by the word "Khar'a" (fall down), which adds to "prostration" to let us know that it is indeed physical prostration. If "prostration" was automatically understood as physical, there would be no need to add "Khar'a" along with it." He later quotes verse 12100 which describes how Joseph's vision/dream was fulfilled. That verse uses the words "fall" and "prostrate" together. But, Layth forgets that in the beginning of the chapter, Joseph's vision that describes the very event described in 12100 uses ONLY one word SaJeDeen, which means "they were prostrating."
Here, the article uses the correlation between 124 and 12100 to imply it does mean "prostration", BUT using the same logic, what about the correlation between the sjd and fall/khrr sjd (i.e. the exact same comparison)? If you are equating them in 124 and 12100, then if you take prostration for one, you should take prostration for the other, otherwise it will be logically inconsistant and/or a contradiction in one's views. Thus, the implication is, whenever one hears AQ, they should physically prostrate if one holds the same view as the article on this point.
Unless, it can be explained away of course.Of course, with the recent evidence on 4102, we know "fall sjd" can only be idiomatic / non-physical, but for those with a sjd/prostration understanding, they are between a rock and a hard place, as the idiomatic expression goes.
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@ Wakas
I am not sure if you fully understood the article. Nevertheless I will quote the following from it
Layth makes an interesting point "Most times it is preceded by the word "Khar'a" (fall down), which adds to "prostration" to let us know that it is indeed physical prostration. If "prostration" was automatically understood as physical, there would be no need to add "Khar'a" along with it." He later quotes verse 12100 which describes how Joseph's vision/dream was fulfilled. That verse uses the words "fall" and "prostrate" together. But, Layth forgets that in the beginning of the chapter, Joseph's vision that describes the very event described in 12100 uses ONLY one word SaJeDeen, which means "they were prostrating."
So it is both phyiscal and mental.
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@ Wakas
I am not sure if you fully understood the article. Nevertheless I will quote the following from it
Layth makes an interesting point "Most times it is preceded by the word "Khar'a" (fall down), which adds to "prostration" to let us know that it is indeed physical prostration. If "prostration" was automatically understood as physical, there would be no need to add "Khar'a" along with it." He later quotes verse 12100 which describes how Joseph's vision/dream was fulfilled. That verse uses the words "fall" and "prostrate" together. But, Layth forgets that in the beginning of the chapter, Joseph's vision that describes the very event described in 12100 uses ONLY one word SaJeDeen, which means "they were prostrating."
So it is both phyiscal and mental.
Dear Brother
I do not believe that it is Layth's statement.
Layth is an Arab.If he does not know that the verb used is "Kharra" not "khar'a" what can you expect out of him.
Regards -
@ Wakas
I am not sure if you fully understood the article.
So it is both phyiscal and mental.
Of course it is both physical and mental! Just like giving to charity is both physical and mental, just like writing is both physical and mental, just like lying is both physical and mental etc etc.
What I am addressing is the evidence FOR/AGAINST sjd meaning physical prostration. If you, or anyone, thinks it is physical prostration, then simply explain away the points I have written about. The only way out of it is to accept "fall sjd" is idiomatic, then all the evidence left is it can theoretically mean physical prostration in a few occurrences, that is it.... just like it can mean "to salute" etc like other Classical Arabic meanings of sjd.... in other words, this is not evidence.
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Of course it is both physical and mental! Just like giving to charity is both physical and mental, just like writing is both physical and mental, just like lying is both physical and mental etc etc.
What I am addressing is the evidence FOR/AGAINST sjd meaning physical prostration. If you, or anyone, thinks it is physical prostration, then simply explain away the points I have written about. The only way out of it is to accept "fall sjd" is idiomatic, then all the evidence left is it can theoretically mean physical prostration in a few occurrences, that is it.... just like it can mean "to salute" etc like other Classical Arabic meanings of sjd.... in other words, this is not evidence.
I think that you still didnt read the quote clearly, so here it is again
Layth makes an interesting point "Most times it is preceded by the word "Khar'a" (fall down), which adds to "prostration" to let us know that it is indeed physical prostration. If "prostration" was automatically understood as physical, there would be no need to add "Khar'a" along with it." He later quotes verse 12100 which describes how Joseph's vision/dream was fulfilled. That verse uses the words "fall" and "prostrate" together. But, Layth forgets that in the beginning of the chapter, Joseph's vision that describes the very event described in 12100 uses ONLY one word SaJeDeen, which means "they were prostrating."
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Peace Wakas.
Wakas There is no clear example of anyone doing this physically in AQ when hearing God's words. Hasan AQ says those particular people did it rather than anyone.
By those particular people I meant the people mentioned in 17107. They were endowed with innate knowledge. As a result, they were moved to such a great extent on hearing God's words that they prostrated to the chin, that is, with humility. It was a particular event taking place under particular circumstances.
You seem to assume that I imply certain things. Please do not assume. It is enough to cite the facts as I will try now.
Nerspi's question What were the people doing in 4102? Training? My answer NO! They were not training. They were Muslim soldiers exposed to the attack of their "open foes". No trainig takes place under the threat of armed attack.
In my post I likened the war front, where the Prophet and his friends were, to the stage where a play is being performed. During the intermissions between the stages of the play the actors and actresses may choose to drink coffee on the stage or even pray for better success but they never receive any training over there. Just like that, at the times when armed conflict ceases on the front for some reason the soldiers may eat their meals and perform their prayers but never receive training. I referred to a photo of the Turkish soldiers perfoming their prayer during the Battles of the Dardanelles, 1915, to examplify the case. http//fotogaleri.samanyoluhaber.com/galeri/615/2
The people in 4102 were performing 1 qm + 1 sjd of salaat. You say that sjd mentioned in a passage may be phisical or mental depending on the context, so the salaat consisiting of 1 qm + 1 sjd mentioned in 4102 is phisical.
Hasan Ak?ay
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From mh?s article (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7428.0)
Now we shall move to another important verse with a form of the word SJD. This verse is 4102. Let us have a look at it.
?And if you are with them and you maintain the commitment for them (the reading session), then let a group from amongst them maintain with you and let them take their weapons; and when they have submitted then let them stand guard behind you; and let a group who has not yet committed come and commit with you, and let them be wary and take their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if there is harm to you from rain, or if you are ill, that you put down your weapons, but be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution?.( 4102)
mh changes God?s word from salaat to the reading session although they are completely different. Salaat is is timed, mawkootaa (4103), performed at the two ends (tarafeyn) of the day (11114) whereas reading sessions are held any time.
Plus, I wonder what he exactly means by the reading session.
Does he mean recitation of God?s words in order to remember Him? If he does, there is no difference between the two in terms of purpose believers perform salaat too so as to remember God (2014).
So what is the fuss for?
Or does he mean training and indocrination? If he does, you can never answer nerspi?s question reasonably what were those believers in 4102 doing? Training?
Let me repeat God?s truthThe believers in 4102 were exposed to the attack of their open foes. No training takes place under the threat of armed attack.
The war front, where the Prophet and his friends were, is like the stage where a play is being performed.
During the intermissions between the stages of the play the actors and actresses may choose to drink coffee on the stage or even pray for better success but they never receive any training over there.
Just like that, at the times when conflict ceases on the front, soldiers eat meals and perform prayers but never receive training. Khomenei tried to indocrinate his Iraqi prisoners far behind the front of the war. He was wise enough.
Please aknowledgde the fact that Peophet Mohammad was a genius. He was no less wise than Kohemenei; neither was he less wise than actors and actresses, who never hold training session on the stage during the performance of a play.
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay -
Root q-S-r describes restraining. This is why a verbal noun qaSr and its plural quSoor can be used for fortifications, castles. As a verb it means "to be restrained", and it's intransitive; but form IV verb means "to cease" (or not to, since it's used with a negation laa). Verb form II generally means "to cause main verb", and since the main verb is intransitive verb form II is reflective also and it can be understood as "to refrain".
The question about 4101 is very important, since this usage of eS-Salaat is showing that this noun has nothing with any physical performance. The context is showing that there's nothing wrong if we restrain from eS-Salaat while travelling if we have fear of being attacked by kaafiroon; this shows that eS-Salaat with people is a connection, nearness, and so. If we travel through the land of kaafiroon and fear of them, there's nothing wrong if we restrain of/from getting connected with them.
