Do you believe hijab is mandatory?

Q_student

peace,

So Lane's Lexicon has more authority than another source? Is that what it says in your Quran? My authority is Al Quran and what God has given me to understand it.

But thanks for indirectly admitting "khimaar" not only means "headcover" by your telling use of "primary meaning".

Dear Brother
How does Quran come in ?
You quoted some websites which from my point of view are unreliable.
This is question of liguistic meanings.Quran is in Arabic language so that we can understand..So you have to know the Arabic language to establish its meanings. The Primary meaning of "Khimaar" is "head cover".
Provide some reliable linguistic evidence. Most welcome but not "www.bla bla bla.com.
Regards

SarahY

Almarh0m
It doesn?t say head or hair unless you believe ? ? refers to hair/head.

Q_student
I don?t think he was stating whether it has authority or not he was just showing that khimar has other meanings than head cover.
Also what gives lexicon the authority?

Huruf what verse were you talking about?

Wakas

peace,

Dear Brother
How does Quran come in ?
You quoted some websites which from my point of view are unreliable.
This is question of liguistic meanings.Quran is in Arabic language so that we can understand..So you have to know the Arabic language to establish its meanings. The Primary meaning of "Khimaar" is "head cover".
Provide some reliable linguistic evidence. Most welcome but not "www.bla bla bla.com.
Regards

I will tell you how The Quran comes into it. Assuming that both you and I try to follow The Quran, when you said source XYZ has no authority and referred me to Lane, I asked is that what it says in your Quran? i.e. does it tell you how to distinguish how one source has more authority than another and thus reject one over the other? If you cannot answer this question with reference to The Quran, then we can only assume your rejection of one source over another has no Quranic basis, that was my point.

Perhaps if you had bothered to read the link, you would have seen it provides verses from The Quran and linguistic evidence. Does your Quran teach you to reject without reading/consideration? If so, please tell us where, so we can distinguish who is a follower of The Quran and who is not.

Linguistic meaning is only one part. If it was only a matter of linguistics as you seemingly allege, then why does The Quran ask us to utilse other avenues of knowledge/experience/information/etc See this link for the relevant verses from The Quran.
Thus, knowing Arabic is only one part. This is an undisputable Quranic FACT.

But do not worry, we all have our chains to break, including me. As Voltaire says "it is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere".

Q_student

Almarh0m
It doesn?t say head or hair unless you believe ? ? refers to hair/head.

Q_student
I don?t think he was stating whether it has authority or not he was just showing that khimar has other meanings than head cover.
Also what gives lexicon the authority?

Huruf what verse were you talking about?

Respected sister.
This is not the question.
Arabic is very vast language.For "cover" there are more "Fifty words".For Reference please see "Thesaursu of Arabic" by Dr Hanna Ghalib.Al-Quran used particularly this word avoiding words which only mean "cover"."Khimaar" and "Naseef" are particularly used for "head cover".
The Dictionaries of Classical arabic are unanimous in its meaning of "Head Cover"

( 4 / 254)
( 11 / 214)
) (
( 1 / 495)
( 1 / 181)

( )

As far as websites are concerned ,you can find every sort of website even those which are against Quran and God.

Regards

Q_student

peace,

I will tell you how The Quran comes into it. Assuming that both you and I try to follow The Quran, when you said source XYZ has no authority and referred me to Lane, I asked is that what it says in your Quran? i.e. does it tell you how to distinguish how one source has more authority than another and thus reject one over the other? If you cannot answer this question with reference to The Quran, then we can only assume your rejection of one source over another has no Quranic basis, that was my point.

Perhaps if you had bothered to read the link, you would have seen it provides verses from The Quran and linguistic evidence. Does your Quran teach you to reject without reading/consideration? If so, please tell us where, so we can distinguish who is a follower of The Quran and who is not.

Linguistic meaning is only one part. If it was only a matter of linguistics as you seemingly allege, then why does The Quran ask us to utilse other avenues of knowledge/experience/information/etc See this link for the relevant verses from The Quran.
Thus, knowing Arabic is only one part. This is an undisputable Quranic FACT.

But do not worry, we all have our chains to break, including me. As Voltaire says "it is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere".

Dear Brother
Every translater provides his own thought in translations.One example you can see in one thread of this forum that one gentleman is providing Quranic certificate for PRostitution.Should we accept it ? Websites are not equavalent to Quran.
Regards

SarahY

Ok I am confused.

I know Arabic has a number of words that mean the same thing or at least similar. Now what are you saying khimar means ?head cover? alone?

I?m not affluent in my Arabic so tell me the first line is supposed to be the reference or something else?

Ok the first reference refers to head and rest of body

The second confused me the brides tiara/crown? That does go on the head but doesn?t exactly cover it. so they refer it as a khimar as well?

I don?t understand the 3rd one. you say naseef means head cover too..

Last one refers to her head and everything else..

Also khumouron? Doesn?t that mean alcohol or is this like some root word or a word that has dual meanings or something?

So what are you saying based on these classical dictionaries khimar can only mean head cover?

so i guess your opinion on this matter is that a head cover is an obligation.

Q_student

Ok I am confused.

I know Arabic has a number of words that mean the same thing or at least similar. Now what are you saying khimar means ?head cover? alone?

I?m not affluent in my Arabic so tell me the first line is supposed to be the reference or something else?

Ok the first reference refers to head and rest of body

The second confused me the brides tiara/crown? That does go on the head but doesn?t exactly cover it. so they refer it as a khimar as well?

I don?t understand the 3rd one. you say naseef means head cover too..

Last one refers to her head and everything else..

Also khumouron? Doesn?t that mean alcohol or is this like some root word or a word that has dual meanings or something?

So what are you saying based on these classical dictionaries khimar can only mean head cover?

so i guess your opinion on this matter is that a head cover is an obligation.

Dear Sister
"Khimaar " is very specific word for "female head cover". "Naseef" is used for both male and female head cover.
There are so many Non specific words in 'Arabic for "cover".But Quran specifically used this word for female that they should cover their breasts with "Khimaar".
Just imagine if someone asks you please pick up such and such person from the airport in your "car", then it is understood you are having and using that car that is why you are being asked to pick up in "your car".
In the same way It is understood that "khimaar " was being used by females as head covers and Quran instructed females to cover their breasts with that "Khimaar".
Otherwise Quran would have used some non specific word so that this confusion is not created. Quran says it is Clear and there is no Crookeness.

Regards

Wakas

peace Qstudent,

Thanks for displaying the strength of your argument by not answering my questions or responding to my points.

"Websites are not equavalent to Quran."? Thanks for the insight. Speaking of websites and insights, I also have one having sight is not equivalent to seeing.

#############

sister Sarah,

There is no need to be confused. For sake of argument, let's say ALL Classical Arabic Dictionaries (CAD) in the entire world state "khimaar" means "headcover", and if we wish to use non-Quranic evidence such as this, why not look to the traditional ahadith which clearly show it does not mean "headcover". Better yet, why not carbon date the two sources CAD versus ahadith, let's see which is older. If we find ahadith is older, then bingo, this will critically damage CAD's case. If we find ahadith are newer than CAD, then we can only assume someone forged these ahadith to give a more lenient meaning to khimaar in some sort of pro-women feminist conspiracy! And no-one said "hey, wait a second, khimaar does not mean any cover, who forged these ahadith?" As we can all see this is nonsensical, but quite amusing I might add.

Of course, the above is a sideline. AQ weights the answer in favour of "khimaar" not meaning "headcover", this is fact. Thus, it will come down to what a person gives more weight to, what AQ says or what CAD says (even if we assume they all say the same thing). Qstudent has already made clear what he takes as his authority.

SarahY

Haha the argument could be non ending

Off course Wakas we should take account of what Quran states otherwise we?d be following definitions of meanings from people not Quran.

Q_student
Yes Quran is clear and free from crookedness? going on that note Quran is specific about the khimar covering a woman?s breasts not specific of the khimar covering her hair.

almarh0m

Peace Q_s

Dear Sister
"Khimaar " is very specific word for "female head cover". "Naseef" is used for both male and female head cover.

In the same way It is understood that "khimaar " was being used by females as head covers and Quran instructed females to cover their breasts with that "Khimaar".

Regards

Are you saying that Allah is telling the believing women to cover their breasts with their "headcovers" ? How Interesting .

Peace

almarh0m

Samia

Respected sister.
This is not the question.
Arabic is very vast language.For "cover" there are more "Fifty words".For Reference please see "Thesaursu of Arabic" by Dr Hanna Ghalib.Al-Quran used particularly this word avoiding words which only mean "cover"."Khimaar" and "Naseef" are particularly used for "head cover".
The Dictionaries of Classical arabic are unanimous in its meaning of "Head Cover"

( 4 / 254)
( 11 / 214)
) (
( 1 / 495)

Translating what you quote from lisaanul 3arab

(al khimaar for the woman is alnaseef, and it's said that al khimaar is what the woman covers her head with...)

Is this what you call "The Primary meaning of "Khimaar" is "head cover"? I am pointing at the bolded underlined word ( and it's said...). This s not primary!

And since we are at it, did you bother to know what / al naseef is? In this context in lisaanul 3arab, it could mean anything but head cover.
Not only don't you know how to consult a dictionary, you do not understand simple Arabic!

Dear Brother one gentleman is providing Quranic certificate for PRostitution.Should we accept it ? Websites are not equavalent to Quran.
Regards

This is your way to retrieve your lies? You could have at least apologized, but it seems that this kind of good manners is not accessible to the arrogant.

Q_student

Translating what you quote from lisaanul 3arab

(al khimaar for the woman is alnaseef, and it's said that al khimaar is what the woman covers her head with...)

Is this what you call "The Primary meaning of "Khimaar" is "head cover"? I am pointing at the bolded underlined word ( and it's said...). This s not primary!

And since we are at it, did you bother to know what / al naseef is? In this context in lisaanul 3arab, it could mean anything but head cover.
Not only don't you know how to consult a dictionary, you do not understand simple Arabic!
This is your way to retrieve your lies? You could have at least apologized, but it seems that this kind of good manners is not accessible to the arrogant.

Salaam sister
It shows that you do not know how to consult a dictionary. Your doubts would have been absolutely clear if could translate all of My DICTIONARY References.If you do not know that all dictionary of every language when give usages they usually say "it is said" which it is spoken or meant like this. This word "qeela" you can see in lisaan ul Arab and Tajul Aroos at many places.If you do not know that is not my fault.
It is the reason I gave so many references.If you feel difficulty to translate Arabic Dictionaries which I referred ,I will recommend to consult Lane's Lexicon under Khimaar.
As far as your second allegation is concerned you said.

This is your way to retrieve your lies? You could have at least apologized, but it seems that this kind of good manners is not accessible to the arrogant.

Here is what this gentleman said

4-24 ----------seek them with your money , with an aim to maintain chastity, not fornicating, you must pay them their wages before you touch them , and when you have enjoyed them, there is no sin upon you what you both agree to. God is knowledgeable wise.

What I understand out of this is that "Prostitution is allowed" because,

The "marriage/Nikah" word is missing from this very important commandment.
You are to seek her with your money (in a normal relationship you dont seek the woman with your money, you seek them with your luv)
You must pay her agreed wage before you derive sexual benefit, (so that you dont runaway after sex)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598241.405
Now you can see who is lying ,you or I .
Did you refute or deny or condemn this "Quranic Certificate" ?

Regards

Samia

Salaam sister
It shows that you do not know how to consult a dictionary. Your doubts would have been absolutely clear if could translate all of My DICTIONARY References.If you do not know that all dictionary of every language when give usages they usually say "it is said" which it is spoken or meant like this. This word "qeela" you can see in lisaan ul Arab and Tajul Aroos at many places.If you do not know that is not my fault.
It is the reason I gave so many references.If you feel difficulty to translate Arabic Dictionaries which I referred ,I will recommend to consult Lane's Lexicon under Khimaar.

You quoted four dictionaries, and I displayed three of them not saying (khimaar is head cover). Why do I have to translate all of them if the one I translated gives the seem meaning as the others? Did you translate any of them? Do you deny that the ones I displayed and not translated, do not say (khimaar is head cover), but (khimaar is al naseef)?

Here is what this gentleman said

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598241.405
Now you can see who is lying ,you or I .
Did you refute or deny or condemn this "Quranic Certificate" ?

Regards

I do not know which one you are talking about. If it's TS11, what was your response to him? I pesonally did not understand this from his post, nor did any one else; and many were reading that discussion. If you mean siki to whom you made your silly, brainless comment, you are showing a further degree of stupidity because siki was sarcastic about a poster, and I do not know who it was but I doubt it was TS11.
You earn a further description absolutely stupid.
I am not going further into discussion with you regarding this matter. In order to not derail this thread further, if you want to post again, make it to the subject of this thread. If you make me, or anyone else, your subject in a mater not related to this thead, I will delete your post.

huruf

peace Qstudent,

Thanks for displaying the strength of your argument by not answering my questions or responding to my points.

"Websites are not equavalent to Quran."? Thanks for the insight. Speaking of websites and insights, I also have one having sight is not equivalent to seeing.

#############

sister Sarah,

There is no need to be confused. For sake of argument, let's say ALL Classical Arabic Dictionaries (CAD) in the entire world state "khimaar" means "headcover", and if we wish to use non-Quranic evidence such as this, why not look to the traditional ahadith which clearly show it does not mean "headcover". Better yet, why not carbon date the two sources CAD versus ahadith, let's see which is older. If we find ahadith is older, then bingo, this will critically damage CAD's case. If we find ahadith are newer than CAD, then we can only assume someone forged these ahadith to give a more lenient meaning to khimaar in some sort of pro-women feminist conspiracy! And no-one said "hey, wait a second, khimaar does not mean any cover, who forged these ahadith?" As we can all see this is nonsensical, but quite amusing I might add.

Of course, the above is a sideline. AQ weights the answer in favour of "khimaar" not meaning "headcover", this is fact. Thus, it will come down to what a person gives more weight to, what AQ says or what CAD says (even if we assume they all say the same thing). Qstudent has already made clear what he takes as his authority.

I think there is such a thing as common sense and I also think that the Qur'an counts on that. Let us say that we do not have any khimar at hand. That would obviously mean that women should let their breasts uncovered, because the important part is that you use a khimar, whatever that is, and not to cover the breasts. Right?

Salaam

huruf

When I responded to your post, I had this verse in my mind

3359

O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the women of the believers, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons which is more convenient that they should be known and not harmed. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

I think that 33.59 do not refer to the same thing. The an-nur aleya deal with a generality of social behaviour, 33.59 deals with very specific circumstances of strife and hostility. Not does it follow from it that ANY other circumstances would require the same resources.

Salaam

Alen

May peace and blessings of Allah be upon you all,
I think it is optional, now those of you who believe it is mandatory, plz do not start critizing me, mocking me and jugding me, plz remember You are not Allah, you may not assert. (i got this from a book called will of Allah) and so if you think I am doing wrong by becoming free minded muslim plz dont start fighting as it is not your concern Allah will be there to judge. thank you for reading and answering.

Peace,
Respectfully.

Which is why we must always provide evidence from The Quran. I always ask sunnis, where in The Quran does it say that a woman must cover her hair and in some cases face and hands? I never get direct answers, because they get angry and just call me kafir or sometimes they say i'm walking on a dangerous path.

Glory be to our God,
Glory be to our God.
Peace.

Wakas

peace,

Let us say that we do not have any khimar at hand. That would obviously mean that women should let their breasts uncovered, because the important part is that you use a khimar, whatever that is, and not to cover the breasts. Right?

Are you implying the point of the verse is to use their "khumur" (covers/headcovers), and the point is not the covering of what parts?

The verse tells us exactly the point, it is about their beauty, not an extrinsic component/garment, and it says "...composition of women", not composition of a garment. Not to mention, the words "composition of women" strongly suggest it is refering to what is specific to a woman, and that can only be breasts and private parts, further proving what parts it is referring to. All the Quranic evidence is reinforcing and complimenting each other.

huruf

No, Wakas, I am not implyig that, Precisely what I intend is making it obvious that to make the central indication of the aya on particular piece of clothing is misusing the aya, but what is intended is to cover the breasts and the kjimar is just an accessory, may be it is mentioned because it offers as quick, uncomplicated way of doing it whithout having to sew or do repairs to usual clothing, but the important thing is to cover the breasts not to use a particular piece of clothing. You fell for it, right? and you were shocked. That's right. It is not about the khimar, it is about the breasts.

Salaam

Wakas

Thanks for clarifying what you meant.

Q_student

Translating what you quote from lisaanul 3arab

(al khimaar for the woman is alnaseef, and it's said that al khimaar is what the woman covers her head with...)

Is this what you call "The Primary meaning of "Khimaar" is "head cover"? I am pointing at the bolded underlined word ( and it's said...). This s not primary!

And since we are at it, did you bother to know what / al naseef is? In this context in lisaanul 3arab, it could mean anything but head cover.
Not only don't you know how to consult a dictionary, you do not understand simple Arabic!
This is your way to retrieve your lies? You could have at least apologized, but it seems that this kind of good manners is not accessible to the arrogant.

Dear Sister
You probably do not know what "Naseef " is .It is also another name of head cover .
MIsbah ul Mnir which you intentionally left says;

( 1 / 181)

( )

THE CLOTH with which the woman COVERS HER HEAD
Now you realize why did you leave out this translation because it did not give you any clue to create any confusion as you are trying with the word 'naseef" which is synonymous with head cover.

I requested you to visit Lane's Lexixon and Put down here what he says . I am again giving its Reference.Please Look Khimaar of original Lane's pages

LL V2 page 445
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

GA PERVAIZ LUGHAT UL QURAN

Khah, miim, rah

Khamr to cover or hide something khamarash shaiyia yakhmir hid him; covered him
khamarar falanun shahadah he hid the evidence alkhamar veil; a cloth with which
women cover their heads (orhni) * plural is khumur 2431 Lataiful Lugha says at first
the women used to put on alghifaarah on their heads; and alkhimarah over it (for
ghifaarah see heading ghain, feh, rah) alkhamr

ALMAWRAD ;

=
VEIL ,YASHMAK (WORN BY WOMEN)

ARABIC -ENGLISH DICTIONARY BY HANS WEHR

= VEIL COVERING HEAD AND FACE OF A WOMAN.

So there is no doubt that word "Khimaar " means "Head Cover".
Regards