Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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You never left this thread, let alone circular arguing, for more than 4 hours. timing of your yesterday's posts are proof that you are lying.
You came back , in your grown beard Imam Jellaba, less than 4 hours after you bade goodbye and started again acting like " a kid who, wanting to have the last word, puts his fingers in his ears and, with eyes closed repeats Allah will curse YOU YOU YOU YOU ! "
Moderators are not the blind ones.
salam
Salaam
Can't you see the difference between my words and God's words ???And we place shields over their hearts, that they should not understand it, and a deafness in their ears. And if you mention your Lord in the Qur'an alone, they run away turning their backs in aversion.
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Peace Ayman
Welcome to the thread and I apologize for the rudeness of Progressive1993. Hopefully, you have read enough of the thread to understand his frustration.
laugh
Why frustration?
488 ...Do you want to guide those whom God misguides? Whoever God causes to be misguided, you will never find for him a way.
Going back to fasting/ramadan
Fasting is an ancient monotheistic practice - neither God, nor Muhammad arbitrarily/randomly decided to impose fasting just like that or changed the calendar just before Muhamamd's death.
Besides, my response was not going personally to Muse, rather to the info presented, unlike what you have done to me (as shown above).
if you do not read 1712 intelligently without preconceptions and instead keep repeating the same thing over and over again, then I will resume ignoring you.
&
By 'intelligently' you mean 'that which accords with your opinion only', assume.
No they are not used to calculate the days of the year. There is no such concept as a "year" in a lunar calendar. One can easily make a purely lunar calendar with 1, 2, ... 13, 14, 15, ...etc. lunar months. There is no inherent number of cycles that one must "reach" or "break" at such as 12 in a purely lunar calendar. You have essentially been counting lunar cycles since year 0 AH and it doesn't matter what you call them or if you reuse the names every 12 names since their names are meaningless anyway. This is why the lunar calendar is 100% dependent on the actual month 1 that you started counting from. In order to count 12, you have to have a start and an end for the population that you are counting from. There is no such thing in a purely lunar calendar with no inherent start or end.
Count 12 lunar months/cycles and you have a year.
As you may know, the '4 inviolable (haram) months (or full moon, if you like)' are well-known, as asserted in the Quran - which are these according to you? 12 months (or full moons, if you like) are to be counted in a year... now, can you please gve me a deatiled calendar, since if you have 12 full moons/months and 4 of them are inviolable/restricted, then you must have a complete calendar. Can you please show me your calendar and provide evidence for this particular calendar to have been followed by Muhammad, his companions (people), earlier prophets, etc.? I am quite sure that they not only counted a year from one summer solstice to the other, then had 4 restricted/inviolable months/full moons and that's it - where did the rest of the timing/calculation go? I thought your calendar/way of counting (using the sun and moon) could calculate THE WHOLE YEAR.
1712 mentions ONLY the day and night as a way to determine the number of years. No full-moon no crescent no any moon. How can you determine the number of years using ONLY the day and night? This is the question. We should not try to change the question to match our preconceptions.
As I said, we need to use our brains... we count as follows night, day... night, day.. night, day... ... ... ... (one lunar cylcle finshed) - and so on. I hope you understood. BTW, you also have used markers, namely, the summer solstices - how are you going to do it without them? You accuse my arguement to be wrong/question it because I said that Muslims use the lunar cycles - this is clearly a double standard.
The answer is that the way to determine the number of years using ONLY the day and night is to count the interval between the longest/shortest day/night (i.e., the solstices). If you have a better answer then I am all of it but dont try to change the question.
Thanks for sharing your personal opinion - please check my last postand my response to your last quote above. If you think that your way is the only possible way or is unique, then please elaborate/refute what I have said.
Note that I am not saying that this is not a possibility/impossible, but it is defintely not THE (only) answer/way to understand this.In order to count, you need to know the population that you are counting out of. This is not about labeling a month XYZ, ABC, KMN... and then repeating again 12 months later the labels XYZ, ABC, KMN... since XYZ, ABC, KMN... are meaningless and you can just as well call ABC as CBA or XYZ or RST. So just repeating the meaningless labels while endlessly continuing to count out of an endless population is not counting 12. This is why the present day sectarian Ramadhan is 100% dependent on when month 1 was. You are now counting month # 17169 and havent stopped the counting at 12. If you took month 2 as month 1 then the present sectarian Ramadhan would have been month 17168 and you would be fasting next month. So as I said, because you havent stopped counting with 12 as ordered in 936 and instead kept counting, your present day month #17169 is tied to your month 1 and can never be independent from it. So you have now been violating 936 for the past 17157 lunar months.
12 lunar cycles/months ----> 1 lunar year
Why do we have years? To make counting of time easier; so why
would you say seventeen-thousand... months? The above example given by you seems very much like a straw man to me.
Besides, who were you addressing with 'you'? I havent been around for that long laughPeace peace
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Peace Muse,
Welcome to the thread and I apologize for the rudeness of Progressive1993. Hopefully, you have read enough of the thread to understand his frustration.
I think that if one reads between the lines, one can see traces of the original timing amongst the corruption. Using Gregorian to Hijri converters, Muharam 1 of the first year of the new era converts to the first new moon crescent after the summer solstice. So originally the marker for the beginning of the year was the summer solstice. If the actual start of Muhrram was the scorching full-moon (shahr ramadhan) then indeed the Muslims would have fasted in the days leading up to and including the tenth of the first month (Muharram). At that time people would have still known the ramadhan/scorching full moon as the event marking the start of Muharram and not as the name of the month. Also, by its name ?Muharam? would make more sense as the first of the restricted period and not the third.
There was definitely no break between the Muslims and the Jews. The relationship soured during the Abbasid period and this is when those traditions about the Jews were invented. On the other hand, the Romans and the Jews themselves speak of a very strong alliance between the Jews and the Arabs well into the Umayyad period. For example, here is what the Jewish Rabbi Simon ben Yohai wrote around 680CE- describing the second king of the Arabs ('Umar I)
?The second king who arises from Ishmael will be a lover of Israel. He restores their breaches and the breaches of the Temple. He hews Mount Moriah, makes it level and builds a mosque (hishtahawaya) there on the Temple rock, as it is said "Your nest is set in the rock."? (Source Hoyland, Seeing Islam as Others Saw it).
Umar was clearly a champion of Zionism. The Romans equally talk in their writings about being invaded by an alliance between the Jews and the Arabs. They speak for example about the Jews and the Arabs upon defeating them and entering Jerusalem going to a place that the Romans used as a dump and cleaning it up and building two shrines side by side, one for the Arabs and one for the Jews. For all we know, Umar himself might have been an Arab-Jew who converted but still harbored Zionist ideas.
I think that the corruption of the timing can be understood in light of this relationship between the Jews and the Arabs (who reverted to their pagan tendencies after the death of the prophet). I briefly provided some thoughts here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg220236#msg220236
Peace,
Ayman
Regarding this piece of history, I read a historical document called "Story of Heraclius" written by a christian armenian writer of the 7 th century, this writer witnessed some events and related others. Anyway he relates about arab invasion of Jerusalem and Armenia, and he mentionned that the jews of Jerusalem went to the arabs showing them that they were "cousin" by the bible, and there were requesting Mohamad for help against the Romans. Which they did and could take Jerusalem.
here is a link of the translated document in french, originaly translated from armenian.
http//remacle.org/bloodwolf/historiens/sebeos/heraclius.htm
regards
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Peace Nabil,
The great reading didn't descend on our lap from the sky. It came through Muhammed, the messenger of the god. I think that Farida is confused because I said that many of the so-called Sahaba probably didn't exist. Since she hero-worships those people, this made her confused. What I am saying is not something amazing or extra ordinary. For example, many researchers think that Abu Hurayra didn't exist and was invented by later generations.
From the document mentionned before "Story of Heraclius" some sahaba were mentionned and we can find that Othman for example died in a battle, in the arabic history it is not mentionned because they were so ashamed.
peace
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Peace Eid,
http//facstaff.uww.edu/mccreadd/intro9.htm
As explained in the above article there are different theories on the full moon illusion and interesting Azimuth is derived from Arabic ('as-simt', which means direction, referring...Here is the title of the entire article that you refer to
Why the Moon Looks Big at the Horizon
and Smaller When Higher UpSo you admit that the solstice full-moon illusion is due to the full-moon taking a low path accross the horizon. Now use the following website and tell everyone the path that the full-moon took each month and tell us which TWO full-moons took the lowest path
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.phpThe answer is that the TWO full-moons that took the LOWEST path are the full-moons BEFORE and AFTER the summer solstice. This fact is so indisputable that I don't even need to check the data through the link about. However, since you are doubting this then post the data and show me wrong.
FACT is your kill season and full moons "drift" after the solstice from June 21 to July 20...
FACT is your kill season is 100% arbitrary and drifts from January 1 to December 31.
Not redundant, a few days is relative (i.e. a week, a month, a year) and to fast a month is not a big deal.
Great, invent an imaginery meaning for "ma'adoodat"/few (3-10) to match your preconception. As far as I remember, the dictionary didn't say that it is "relative" and that 100 million which is relatively small compared to a Billion can mean "few". What you are saying is nonsense in any language, not just Arabic. If you didn't have your preconception from the sectarian nonsense then you wouldn't be stuck and forced to invent a new illogical meaning.
Please address the question about full moon illusion last year, YES/NO and we can move on to the others.
As I said, post the elevation data for ALL the full moons from last year and tell us which TWO take the lowest path
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.phpPeace,
Ayman
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Peace Progressive1993,
Why frustration?
Sry, didnt read the whole thing - didnt have much time,
The frustration and lack of patience that as you ADMITTED to Muse prevented you from reading her post properly. This is also the same thing that is preventing you from reading anything properly. The questions that you are asking have been addressed in my post and on PAGE 1 of this long thread. No sense repeating for someone who is not able to read properly no matter what. This is not just a problem on this thread but in all discussions that you participate in. I sincerely suggest that you get tested to see if you suffer from a learning disability so that you can correct it.
Peace,
Ayman
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The frustration and lack of patience that as you ADMITTED to Muse prevented you from reading her post properly. This is also the same thing that is preventing you from reading anything properly. The questions that you are asking have been addressed in my post and on PAGE 1 of this long thread. No sense repeating for someone who is not able to read properly no matter what. This is not just a problem on this thread but in all discussions that you participate in. I sincerely suggest that you get tested to see if you suffer from a learning disability so that you can correct it.
Thank you for your concern. I am delighted.
BTW, at least I can admit mistakes, and what I said about that post where Muse quoted some guy was true.
Instead of attacking me personally the whole time, you could have responded to the followingwe count as follows night, day... night, day.. night, day... ... ... ... (one lunar cylcle finshed) - and so on. I hope you understood. BTW, you also have used markers, namely, the summer solstices - how are you going to do it without them? You accuse my arguement to be wrong/question it because I said that Muslims use the lunar cycles - this is clearly a double standard.
How is your system unique and 'the only one' that fits with 1712? Dont you have markers as well (ie. not only calculate the year with days), namely the summer solstices?
Also, what do you say about what is said in the Bible about fasting in the ninth month of the lunar calendar?
Peace ayman,
I alredy advised him to take a I test.
I am not sure he did )Peace
- That was 'guest' whom you told that.
- We have seen your insightful, ayman-cheering posts
Also, ayman, you are showing very good and respectful arguementation skills by attacking me personally and nagging on this one thing I said about Muse's post, although the part about it being bogus is still true. I have understood and I have corrected what I have said - no need to continue on this. If you are willing to continue with the actual them of this taopic (ramadan), then I am happy to continue discussing.
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Peace Progressive1993,
Thank you for your concern. I am delighted.
BTW, at least I can admit mistakes, and what I said about that post where Muse quoted some guy was true.You are welcome. I would say the same advice to my own brother if he was not reading patiently and correctly. We all have weaknesses and the key is to indentify them so that one can cope with them by devising learning aids. For example, some people are more auditory than visual so reading out loud might help them to understand the text better and not skip things.
Instead of attacking me personally the whole time, you could have responded to the following
How is your system unique and 'the only one' that fits with 1712? Dont you have markers as well (ie. not only calculate the year with days), namely the summer solstices?This is exactly what I am talking about. The way you read, you do not try to put yourself in the shoes of the author or go a layer deeper than superficial reading. You just read "summer solstice" and think that like you (using the moon) I am using a marker not mentioned in 1712, which only mentions "day and night". What you fail to see is that the "summer solstice" is just a convenient label but go a layer deeper and you will see that it stands for "longest day and shortest night". So per 1712, I am ONLY using the night and the day to determine the number of years.
Also, what do you say about what is said in the Bible about fasting in the ninth month of the lunar calendar?
This was already answered by me as well as Rami. You are free to agree or disagree but repeating the same thing and expecting a different result only demonstrates that you have not understood our answers and have nothing further to say. Unlike you, I will not repeat the same thing and expect different results and I will not waste time on providing more info when you have not understood the first ones.
Also, ayman, you are showing very good and respectful arguementation skills by attacking me personally and nagging on this one thing I said about Muse's post, although the part about it being bogus is still true. I have understood and I have corrected what I have said - no need to continue on this. If you are willing to continue with the actual them of this taopic (ramadan), then I am happy to continue discussing.
But we can't continue to discuss if you are not able to read what I ALREADY wrote. I would suggest that you reread what I wrote while trying to put yourself in my shoes and read with a sense of depth. Afterwards, start by making a list of the things that make sense to you from reading what I wrote (doesn't matter if you agree with them or not). Next, make a list of the things that don't make sense to you. Finally, put together the two lists and see if the things that make sense to you can explain what doesn't make sense. If something still doesn't make sense then ask and I will gladly answer. This has nothing to do with agreeing or not agreeing with me. At this stage, it is clear that you don't even understand what I wrote so you are in no position to agree or not agree and this is why you keep going in circles. This is the advice that I would sincerely give to my own brother if he was in your situation.
Peace,
Ayman
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But we can't continue to discuss if you are not able to read what I ALREADY wrote. I would suggest that you reread what I wrote while trying to put yourself in my shoes and read with a sense of depth. Afterwards, start by making a list of the things that make sense to you from reading what I wrote (doesn't matter if you agree with them or not). Next, make a list of the things that don't make sense to you. Finally, put together the two lists and see if the things that make sense to you can explain what doesn't make sense. If something still doesn't make sense then ask and I will gladly answer. This has nothing to do with agreeing or not agreeing with me. At this stage, it is clear that you don't even understand what I wrote so you are in no position to agree or not agree and this is why you keep going in circles.
I will take your advice and do that.
peace
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Peace herbman
and The God rewards you,I saved the article, it is a very good one, and being a fluent french speaker, I will read it
and God willing benefit from it.Salam
NabsterFrom the document mentionned before "Story of Heraclius" some sahaba were mentionned and we can find that Othman for example died in a battle, in the arabic history it is not mentionned because they were so ashamed.
peace
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Peace Herbman,
Regarding this piece of history, I read a historical document called "Story of Heraclius" written by a christian armenian writer of the 7 th century, this writer witnessed some events and related others. Anyway he relates about arab invasion of Jerusalem and Armenia, and he mentionned that the jews of Jerusalem went to the arabs showing them that they were "cousin" by the bible, and there were requesting Mohamad for help against the Romans. Which they did and could take Jerusalem.
here is a link of the translated document in french, originaly translated from armenian.
http//remacle.org/bloodwolf/historiens/sebeos/heraclius.htmThank you for poviding this interesting link. Here is the same info in English for those who are interested
http//rbedrosian.com/seb1.htm
What I find most interesting is his accounts of the very strong alliance between the Jews and the Arabs completely contradicting the traditional accounts, which have erased all references to this important alliance and the critical role that it played in the conquests and instead made Jews the enemies. I also find interesting his brief account of the Arab civil wars which also contradicts traditional accounts.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace every one
We should refrain ourselves from throwing verses on others and calling them rejecters these verses are not for us but for those who rejected Gods command different opinions and interpretation does not make one rejecter are Mushrik. angel -
Peace every one
We should refrain ourselves from throwing verses on others and calling them rejecters these verses are not for us but for those who rejected Gods command different opinions and interpretation does not make one rejecter are Mushrik. angelPeace Afridi,
So this thread is for you to post silly characters and pictures in the middle of a serious discussion. Have you contributed anything worthwhile so far?
Muse had been fed lies by Neal Robinson as well as Ayman, so what is wrong if I post a very relevant reminder from the Qur?an. 496 O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. Lest you harm a people out of ignorance, then you will become regretful over what you have done.
Every verses posted was relevant to the topic. You know what is the biggest problem with you people? You see the Quran as a guidance for Mushrik and rejecters not for yourselves and when you are reminded you feel offended although the reminder is directed at the believers!
Read this is a a reminder for people who believe
2951 Is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Scripture, being recited to them? In that is a mercy and a reminder for people who believe.peace
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Peace Afridi,
So this thread is for you to post silly characters and pictures in the middle of a serious discussion. Have you contributed anything worthwhile so far?
Muse had been fed lies by Neal Robinson as well as Ayman, so what is wrong if I post a very relevant reminder from the Qur?an. 496 O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. Lest you harm a people out of ignorance, then you will become regretful over what you have done.
Every verses posted was relevant to the topic. You know what is the biggest problem with you people? You see the Quran as a guidance for Mushrik and rejecters not for yourselves and when you are reminded you feel offended although the reminder is directed at the believers!
Read this is a a reminder for people who believe
2951 Is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Scripture, being recited to them? In that is a mercy and a reminder for people who believe.peace
And what is this is this a reminder for believers most wise and knowledgable Farida.
And we place shields over their hearts, that they should not understand it, and a deafness in their ears. And if you mention your Lord in the Qur'an alone, they run away turning their backs in aversion.
that is what you are conributed. ??? -
And what is this is this a reminder for believers most wise and knowledgable Farida.
And we place shields over their hearts, that they should not understand it, and a deafness in their ears. And if you mention your Lord in the Qur'an alone, they run away turning their backs in aversion.
that is what you are conributed. ???Salaam
Yes this is a very chilling reminder for the believers not to slump to that stege, ahh if only you would pay heed to the warning.We never annihilate any community without sending warners.
By way of a reminder, and We were never unjustpeace
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Peace Afridi,
So this thread is for you to post silly characters and pictures in the middle of a serious discussion. Have you contributed anything worthwhile so far?
Muse had been fed lies by Neal Robinson as well as Ayman, so what is wrong if I post a very relevant reminder from the Qur?an. 496 O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. Lest you harm a people out of ignorance, then you will become regretful over what you have done.
Every verses posted was relevant to the topic. You know what is the biggest problem with you people? You see the Quran as a guidance for Mushrik and rejecters not for yourselves and when you are reminded you feel offended although the reminder is directed at the believers!
Read this is a a reminder for people who believe
2951 Is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Scripture, being recited to them? In that is a mercy and a reminder for people who believe.peace
1753 And say to My servants (that) they speak that which is best; surely the Shaitan sows dissensions among them; surely the Shaitan is an open enemy to man.
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat17_files/17_53.gif
4134 And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend. )
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat41_files/41_34.gif -
Peace Farida and Afridi, all,
4724 Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them?
I actually think that it is great that you have stopped arguing and instead have been posting those very touching passages. At least this is far more useful and I encourage everyone to ponder on those passages regardless of who posted them. Only those with pure hearts not locked by traditions and preconceptions can understand the great reading. This is a very relevant passage that applies directly to this thread and the issue of timing. If one starts from a pure heart, a clean sheet, without preconceptions then one cannot in a million years reach the sectarian calendar based on understanding the great reading. I admit that I am guilty of trying to find out the timing without preconceptions and based purely on earnestly seeking to understand the great reading. If I say what I am saying here on this thread in the middle of Mecca, I would probably be arrested and put to trial (this is if I don't get stoned to death by an angry "pious" mob first). Since you are the only lawyer I know on this thread, what would you say in my defense? I really would like to know. Would you even take my case or would you join the mob?
I wish you peace,
Ayman
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Peace Farida
Since you are the only lawyer I know on this thread, what would you say in my defense? I really would like to know. Would you even take my case or would you join the mob?I wish you peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
Sorry you will never be able to hire me I am way beyond your reach.
I wish you luck. P
farida
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So you admit that the solstice full-moon illusion is due to the full-moon taking a low path accross the horizon. Now use the following website and tell everyone the path that the full-moon took each month and tell us which TWO full-moons took the lowest path
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.phpPeace,
Ayman this fact is known to all...Now, if we follow your theory and Fast During the Solstice Moon, do we have to disobey our Lord and Count 13 Moon Per Year in order to Fast every year in the Solstice Moon Period?
Great, invent an imaginery meaning for "ma'adoodat"/few (3-10) to match your preconception. As far as I remember, the dictionary didn't say that it is "relative" and that 100 million which is relatively small compared to a Billion can mean "few". What you are saying is nonsense in any language, not just Arabic. If you didn't have your preconception from the sectarian nonsense then you wouldn't be stuck and forced to invent a new illogical meaning.
Ayman, as we have told you before, Madoodat Means Counted...It Does Not Mean 3-10 nor 30 nor 100...it does not mean few, as well...Simply, COUNTED.
Peace