Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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peace Belh
Going to back to your first post i'll quote one part
If you think free-minds is a sect then your system is also a sect.
Simple Free-minds has x understanding from Quran, you have Y understanding from Quran 19ers have z understanding from Quran. Difference is some sects are more extreme and use less of their reason, heart and intellect.
Peace,
You are right, I do not belong to Fee-minds.org Party (Sect).
However, there are two parties
Allah's Party
5822 You will not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day leaning towards those who oppose God and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their kin. For these, He decrees faith into their hearts, and supports them with a Spirit from Him, and He admits them into estates with rivers flowing beneath them; abiding therein. God is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the Sect of God. Most assuredly, the party of God are the winners.
5822The Evil Party
The evil is an enemy to you, so treat him as an enemy. He only invites his party to be the dwellers of Hell.
356You acknowledge the Quran.
The Quran advises to use reason
A verse in the Quran says amputate thieves hands
This goes against reason and heart
Thus......... what do you do???What's more important. Your heart, reason, intellect or you interpretation of the Quran?
On the day of judgement if a judge is asked why did you order the amputation of that thieves hand?
Does "That's what i thought that the Quran said even though it went against my heart and reason" sound acceptable?
where as on the other hand if a judge was asked "why did you not order the amputation of the thieves hand when that is what you understood of the QUran"
and the judge responds with "it went against my heart and reason" is acceptable
It is never been our choice when it comes to God's Orders...We only can Say "We Heard and We Obey"; as Abraham (PBUH) did when asked to slaughter His Own beloved Son.
After rereading my post, it appears that i am implying that you are unreasonable.
I'm sorry. That's not what i meant. What i'm trying to convey is that in the case of amputation you are sacrificing heart and reason for you understanding of the Quran.
peace you are fine.
I would never dare to question my Lord's Orders when clear and Precise...Our Lord's Wisdom is Hard to grasp with our Logic.
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Peace all,
belH why you use sunni fiqh and tricks to quiz me and people here?
you said before you came here to learn, but now it seems you want to impose your views...
you are behaving like a hypocrite, saying something, and being something else...
i do not want to deal with hypocrites...
if you are here to learn, then stop trying to force your views on people or the web-site...
there are plenty of sunni web-sites who have your views, and you can set up your own with exactly your views.
if you are correct, Allah will make you succeed...for now, i wish you well, but feel very disappointed by your lack of honesty...
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peace belH ...
why do you think am i obliged to answer any of your question?
especially when i suspect you are a follower of any groups i do not wish to have anything to do with anymore!!!
and who are you to dare quizzing us, have we paid you to teach us anything? -
peace belH ...
why do you think am i obliged to answer any of your question?
especially when i suspect you are a follower of any groups i do not wish to have anything to do with anymore!!!
and who are you to dare quizzing us, have we paid you to teach us anything?Do not take it personally, you are not an arabic speaker as you said before...otherwise, you could have translated Four simple arabic words.
Sorry to say it, but you are a LAIR who just got busted rotfl
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Peace belH
it is ok, i can take anything from fools, so long as they are behind a grilled fence, or an internet connection ;D
if your read my previous posts i said my arabic was rusty as i do not use it much, apart from Quran, but i refuse to answer quizzes...
you have veered off what we were talking about, which was what interested me (how Allah in Quran asked us to deal with theft).
You also are very weak in logic, and fiqh, but until now i have been kind and refrained from calling you a retard and a jahil, but since you are calling me a liar, i guess you are forcing my hand.
That being said my last question, which is relevant to a Quranic question you asked me about hudud was Qasas, you dodged it....What about Qasas?
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peace BelH, all,
It can be used to mean reward (e.g., 5-85, 18-88, 20-76, 32-17) or can be used to mean punishment (e.g., 5-33, 5-38, 5-95, 9-26);
Firstly, you are using context to interpret what it means in these examples. This does not change the actual meaning of the word.
Secondly, please cite a reference from a Classical Arabic dictionary which says the word itself means "punishment".
Thirdly, the problem of taking the word to mean "punishment" in some verses means it simply will not fit in other verses. And the only reason for doing this, as far as I can see, is to justify an incorrect or lesser likely interpretation of 1275.The primary and oft-used meaning is "recompense", this is FACT. But, for sake of argument, let's say it means "punishment", let's see if this fits into 1274-75. Allow me to re-quote what I said
They Said
its recompense (see previous sign 1274 for usage of "jazaohu" and what it refers to)
who
found
in
his bag
then him ("fa" means so/then)
its recompense
like that
We recompense
the wrongdoersDo you deny the parts in bold?
Now, BelH, and forum readers, insert "punishment" instead of "recompense" in the above and see if the verse makes sense.
Let us know what happens. ;D
The perfect way is only difficult for those who pick and choose. Do not like, do not dislike; all will then be clear. Make a hairbreadth difference and heaven and earth are set apart; if you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease ~Bruce Lee
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belH, peace...
when the fault is witnessed / seen, then the punishment has to be witnessed /seen...
you can also word it the reward / punishment is commensurate to the work / action witnessed committed...my quote this is the meaning you want me to tell you... and again you need to take into account of other circumstances,
so stop preaching oki...now how about Qasas?
and if you steal, according to ayat about theft if judge has to apply her as is, you must have both hands amputated...
only hadith and further tafseer says it is right hand, so you agree with that?
you did not compare with sentence structure of zina punishment...you do not have to do anything of the above btw, i am not your keeper...
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Peace belH
I do not think you and me are having a language barrier here.
but rather a logic barrier.
so trying to put me down claiming i do not master the language will not work to your advantage,
and whatever your friends the shayateens from the ahl al sunna and jamaa' tell you, there is no way
they can interpret the ayat of theft on its own if they want to use the word amputate for theft
without having to amputate (yes) both hands of the thief.
They need hadith and tafseer and ulamah to "clarify" the meaning (ie fabricate the meaning then adding the foot, etc...).
If you buy it, you are an idiot as I suspected all along and you have not let go of the hadith, and you are still a sunni, and
in fact you are a sunni agent trying to create here in this forum corruption by division instead of constructive exchange
of ideas, so maybe you should be banished... ;D -
peace BelH, all,
Firstly, you are using context to interpret what it means in these examples. This does not change the actual meaning of the word.
Secondly, please cite a reference from a Classical Arabic dictionary which says the word itself means "punishment".
Thirdly, the problem of taking the word to mean "punishment" in some verses means it simply will not fit in other verses. And the only reason for doing this, as far as I can see, is to justify an incorrect or lesser likely interpretation of 1275.Peace all,
Well, if you disagree with the translation, then tell free-minds.org to change their translation that matches mine and disagrees with yours
Progressive Muslims
1274 They said What shall be the punishment, if you are not truthful?
1274But, for sake of argument, let's say it means "punishment", let's see if this fits into 1274-75. Allow me to re-quote what I said
They Said
its recompense (see previous sign 1274 for usage of "jazaohu" and what it refers to)
who
found
in
his bag
then him ("fa" means so/then)
its recompense
like that
We recompense
the wrongdoersDo you deny the parts in bold?
Now, BelH, and forum readers, insert "punishment" instead of "recompense" in the above and see if the verse makes sense.
Let us know what happens. ;D
His Punishment
who
found
in
his bag
then him ("fa" means so/then)
his Punishment
like that
We Punish
the wrongdoers -
belH, peace...
when the fault is witnessed / seen, then the punishment has to be witnessed /seen...
you can also word it the reward / punishment is commensurate to the work / action witnessed committed...Well, as I see this translation supports my argument, however, the person who translate it (Which I know is not you) did not translate word by word, rather he wrote what it implies too.
Here is any easy request to all the Arabic speakers or non-arabic who know arabic, Complete the Missing English Word ("?-?-?"
The "?-?-?"
from
Type
The ActPeace all
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Well, as I see this translation supports my argument, however, the person who translate it (Which I know is not you) did not translate word by word, rather he wrote what it implies too.
Here is any easy request to all the Arabic speakers or non-arabic who know arabic, Complete the Missing English Word ("?-?-?"
The "?-?-?"
from
Type
The ActPeace all
How about this translation.
Penalty of a class action hmm -
Sorry to disappoint you belH, but last translation is mine,
but i am allowed to use resources, as everyone does, i still use dictionaries for english, and french too btw ;Dnow i still say that the meaning because Allah in his wisdom did not separate the male and the female, did not put a clear strong emphasis like zina, allowed repentance involvement, and that cutting off have multiple meaning, the one you refer to being unacceptable because how can you remove two hands in one go from same individual, the only option is to cut the perpetrators off from their actions, and either allow them to repent (if they can afford to by paying back the money), or use them at the discretion of the state, and the decision of the shura...
this is my understanding, i believe it is reasonable, and it does not need Mr Bukhari or other external intervention, because it uses plain mantiq (logic).
oh and btw i am 3/4 arab (descendant from mulay Idriss I of Morocco) and 1/4 Ottoman turk if you wish to know, but i told you something already about my genealogy, but you think that i am an imam liar...Well, as I see this translation supports my argument, however, the person who translate it (Which I know is not you) did not translate word by word, rather he wrote what it implies too.
Here is any easy request to all the Arabic speakers or non-arabic who know arabic, Complete the Missing English Word ("?-?-?"
The "?-?-?"
from
Type
The ActPeace all
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peace BelH, all,
The free-minds.org translation has no authority in translation, and is imperfect like ALL translations. Rather than attempting an "appeal to popularity" fallacy, perhaps you can address my questions with answers. As a sidenote, if they change it, will you admit you were wrong?
Can you cite a Classical Arabic dictionary with the word meaning of "punishment"?
His Punishment
who
found
in
his bag
then him ("fa" means so/then)
his Punishment
like that
We Punish
the wrongdoersI note by your revised word for word translation that you kept in some of what I corrected. Allow me to correct you further
In 1274 it is not "the punishment" (as you put it), it is "his/its punishment". Of course, since you have opted for "jazaohu" to mean "his punishment" throughout, let's stick with your rendition and put it in and see what happens
1270 ...then a caller cried out "O you in the caravan, you (plural) are thieves! (plural)"
1271 They (sons of Jacob) said, turning towards them (Egyptians) "What is it you are missing?"
1272 They (Egyptians) said "We are missing the measuring bowl of the King, and for whomever can produce it, we will give a camel's load, and I will be bound by this."
1273 They (sons of Jacob) said, "By God, you know we did not come to cause corruption in the land, and we are no thieves!". (plural throughout)
1274 They (Egyptians) said "What shall be his punishment, if you (plural) are liars? (plural)"Tell us BelH, why do the victims of theft initially accuse them using the plural in 1270, then magically figure out only one of them did it and use the singular "his" in the first part of the sentence but then use the plural in the rest of their sentence in 1274?
;D
If you fail to answer the above, then let us know the correct rendition of "jazaohu", seeing as you know Arabic.
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Tell us BelH, why do the victims of theft initially accuse them using the plural in 1270, then magically figure out only one of them did it and use the singular "his" in the first part of the sentence but then use the plural in the rest of their sentence in 1274?
Simply because they (Yousuf's Helpers) followed their Master (Yousuf) order to only punish the One who Stole the One thing. Hence, one think can only be found in one Bag that is carried by One of Them. )
Also, do not forget that this was a plot by Yousuf so he can take his Brother, whom knew about the plot (because yousuf told him) before the investigation started. (i.e., yousuf knew He will find the Stolen one thing in His Brother Bag)
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Simply because they (Yousuf's Helpers) followed their Master (Yousuf) order to only punish the One who Stole the One thing. Hence, one think can only be found in one Bag that is carried by One of Them. )
Nonsense!
Firstly, what order by their master Joseph are you referring to?! If you are referring to 1279 then this was said after! Will you now be forced to suggest Joseph's helpers were telepathic? or time-travellers who went into the future to hear Joseph's statement then returned and said what they said? ;D
Also, do not forget that this was a plot by Yousuf so he can take his Brother, whom knew about the plot (because yousuf told him) before the investigation started. (i.e., yousuf knew He will find the Stolen one thing in His Brother Bag)
Nonsense!
Evidence of plot by Joseph? Evidence his brother knew of the plot? Did Joseph magically predict what the sons of Jacob would say? Were Joseph's helpers all in on it and acting? Were they all happy to frame someone for theft?
1276 "...like that did We plan for Joseph..."
Tell us BelH, who did the plotting?
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Nonsense!
Firstly, what order by their master Joseph are you referring to?! If you are referring to 1279 then this was said after! Will you now be forced to suggest Joseph's helpers were telepathic? or time-travellers who went into the future to hear Joseph's statement then returned and said what they said? ;D
Nonsense!
Evidence of plot by Joseph? Evidence his brother knew of the plot? Did Joseph magically predict what the sons of Jacob would say? Were Joseph's helpers all in on it and acting? Were they all happy to frame someone for theft?
1276 "...like that did We plan for Joseph..."
Tell us BelH, who did the plotting?
It seems that you are having a problem to understand 1259 to 1269
