Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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peace BelH, all,
It can be used to mean reward (e.g., 5-85, 18-88, 20-76, 32-17) or can be used to mean punishment (e.g., 5-33, 5-38, 5-95, 9-26);
Firstly, you are using context to interpret what it means in these examples. This does not change the actual meaning of the word.
Secondly, please cite a reference from a Classical Arabic dictionary which says the word itself means "punishment".
Thirdly, the problem of taking the word to mean "punishment" in some verses means it simply will not fit in other verses. And the only reason for doing this, as far as I can see, is to justify an incorrect or lesser likely interpretation of 1275.The primary and oft-used meaning is "recompense", this is FACT. But, for sake of argument, let's say it means "punishment", let's see if this fits into 1274-75. Allow me to re-quote what I said
They Said
its recompense (see previous sign 1274 for usage of "jazaohu" and what it refers to)
who
found
in
his bag
then him ("fa" means so/then)
its recompense
like that
We recompense
the wrongdoersDo you deny the parts in bold?
Now, BelH, and forum readers, insert "punishment" instead of "recompense" in the above and see if the verse makes sense.
Let us know what happens. ;D
The perfect way is only difficult for those who pick and choose. Do not like, do not dislike; all will then be clear. Make a hairbreadth difference and heaven and earth are set apart; if you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease ~Bruce Lee
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belH, peace...
when the fault is witnessed / seen, then the punishment has to be witnessed /seen...
you can also word it the reward / punishment is commensurate to the work / action witnessed committed...my quote this is the meaning you want me to tell you... and again you need to take into account of other circumstances,
so stop preaching oki...now how about Qasas?
and if you steal, according to ayat about theft if judge has to apply her as is, you must have both hands amputated...
only hadith and further tafseer says it is right hand, so you agree with that?
you did not compare with sentence structure of zina punishment...you do not have to do anything of the above btw, i am not your keeper...
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Peace belH
I do not think you and me are having a language barrier here.
but rather a logic barrier.
so trying to put me down claiming i do not master the language will not work to your advantage,
and whatever your friends the shayateens from the ahl al sunna and jamaa' tell you, there is no way
they can interpret the ayat of theft on its own if they want to use the word amputate for theft
without having to amputate (yes) both hands of the thief.
They need hadith and tafseer and ulamah to "clarify" the meaning (ie fabricate the meaning then adding the foot, etc...).
If you buy it, you are an idiot as I suspected all along and you have not let go of the hadith, and you are still a sunni, and
in fact you are a sunni agent trying to create here in this forum corruption by division instead of constructive exchange
of ideas, so maybe you should be banished... ;D -
peace BelH, all,
Firstly, you are using context to interpret what it means in these examples. This does not change the actual meaning of the word.
Secondly, please cite a reference from a Classical Arabic dictionary which says the word itself means "punishment".
Thirdly, the problem of taking the word to mean "punishment" in some verses means it simply will not fit in other verses. And the only reason for doing this, as far as I can see, is to justify an incorrect or lesser likely interpretation of 1275.Peace all,
Well, if you disagree with the translation, then tell free-minds.org to change their translation that matches mine and disagrees with yours
Progressive Muslims
1274 They said What shall be the punishment, if you are not truthful?
1274But, for sake of argument, let's say it means "punishment", let's see if this fits into 1274-75. Allow me to re-quote what I said
They Said
its recompense (see previous sign 1274 for usage of "jazaohu" and what it refers to)
who
found
in
his bag
then him ("fa" means so/then)
its recompense
like that
We recompense
the wrongdoersDo you deny the parts in bold?
Now, BelH, and forum readers, insert "punishment" instead of "recompense" in the above and see if the verse makes sense.
Let us know what happens. ;D
His Punishment
who
found
in
his bag
then him ("fa" means so/then)
his Punishment
like that
We Punish
the wrongdoers -
belH, peace...
when the fault is witnessed / seen, then the punishment has to be witnessed /seen...
you can also word it the reward / punishment is commensurate to the work / action witnessed committed...Well, as I see this translation supports my argument, however, the person who translate it (Which I know is not you) did not translate word by word, rather he wrote what it implies too.
Here is any easy request to all the Arabic speakers or non-arabic who know arabic, Complete the Missing English Word ("?-?-?"
The "?-?-?"
from
Type
The ActPeace all
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Well, as I see this translation supports my argument, however, the person who translate it (Which I know is not you) did not translate word by word, rather he wrote what it implies too.
Here is any easy request to all the Arabic speakers or non-arabic who know arabic, Complete the Missing English Word ("?-?-?"
The "?-?-?"
from
Type
The ActPeace all
How about this translation.
Penalty of a class action hmm -
Sorry to disappoint you belH, but last translation is mine,
but i am allowed to use resources, as everyone does, i still use dictionaries for english, and french too btw ;Dnow i still say that the meaning because Allah in his wisdom did not separate the male and the female, did not put a clear strong emphasis like zina, allowed repentance involvement, and that cutting off have multiple meaning, the one you refer to being unacceptable because how can you remove two hands in one go from same individual, the only option is to cut the perpetrators off from their actions, and either allow them to repent (if they can afford to by paying back the money), or use them at the discretion of the state, and the decision of the shura...
this is my understanding, i believe it is reasonable, and it does not need Mr Bukhari or other external intervention, because it uses plain mantiq (logic).
oh and btw i am 3/4 arab (descendant from mulay Idriss I of Morocco) and 1/4 Ottoman turk if you wish to know, but i told you something already about my genealogy, but you think that i am an imam liar...Well, as I see this translation supports my argument, however, the person who translate it (Which I know is not you) did not translate word by word, rather he wrote what it implies too.
Here is any easy request to all the Arabic speakers or non-arabic who know arabic, Complete the Missing English Word ("?-?-?"
The "?-?-?"
from
Type
The ActPeace all
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peace BelH, all,
The free-minds.org translation has no authority in translation, and is imperfect like ALL translations. Rather than attempting an "appeal to popularity" fallacy, perhaps you can address my questions with answers. As a sidenote, if they change it, will you admit you were wrong?
Can you cite a Classical Arabic dictionary with the word meaning of "punishment"?
His Punishment
who
found
in
his bag
then him ("fa" means so/then)
his Punishment
like that
We Punish
the wrongdoersI note by your revised word for word translation that you kept in some of what I corrected. Allow me to correct you further
In 1274 it is not "the punishment" (as you put it), it is "his/its punishment". Of course, since you have opted for "jazaohu" to mean "his punishment" throughout, let's stick with your rendition and put it in and see what happens
1270 ...then a caller cried out "O you in the caravan, you (plural) are thieves! (plural)"
1271 They (sons of Jacob) said, turning towards them (Egyptians) "What is it you are missing?"
1272 They (Egyptians) said "We are missing the measuring bowl of the King, and for whomever can produce it, we will give a camel's load, and I will be bound by this."
1273 They (sons of Jacob) said, "By God, you know we did not come to cause corruption in the land, and we are no thieves!". (plural throughout)
1274 They (Egyptians) said "What shall be his punishment, if you (plural) are liars? (plural)"Tell us BelH, why do the victims of theft initially accuse them using the plural in 1270, then magically figure out only one of them did it and use the singular "his" in the first part of the sentence but then use the plural in the rest of their sentence in 1274?
;D
If you fail to answer the above, then let us know the correct rendition of "jazaohu", seeing as you know Arabic.
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Tell us BelH, why do the victims of theft initially accuse them using the plural in 1270, then magically figure out only one of them did it and use the singular "his" in the first part of the sentence but then use the plural in the rest of their sentence in 1274?
Simply because they (Yousuf's Helpers) followed their Master (Yousuf) order to only punish the One who Stole the One thing. Hence, one think can only be found in one Bag that is carried by One of Them. )
Also, do not forget that this was a plot by Yousuf so he can take his Brother, whom knew about the plot (because yousuf told him) before the investigation started. (i.e., yousuf knew He will find the Stolen one thing in His Brother Bag)
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Simply because they (Yousuf's Helpers) followed their Master (Yousuf) order to only punish the One who Stole the One thing. Hence, one think can only be found in one Bag that is carried by One of Them. )
Nonsense!
Firstly, what order by their master Joseph are you referring to?! If you are referring to 1279 then this was said after! Will you now be forced to suggest Joseph's helpers were telepathic? or time-travellers who went into the future to hear Joseph's statement then returned and said what they said? ;D
Also, do not forget that this was a plot by Yousuf so he can take his Brother, whom knew about the plot (because yousuf told him) before the investigation started. (i.e., yousuf knew He will find the Stolen one thing in His Brother Bag)
Nonsense!
Evidence of plot by Joseph? Evidence his brother knew of the plot? Did Joseph magically predict what the sons of Jacob would say? Were Joseph's helpers all in on it and acting? Were they all happy to frame someone for theft?
1276 "...like that did We plan for Joseph..."
Tell us BelH, who did the plotting?
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Nonsense!
Firstly, what order by their master Joseph are you referring to?! If you are referring to 1279 then this was said after! Will you now be forced to suggest Joseph's helpers were telepathic? or time-travellers who went into the future to hear Joseph's statement then returned and said what they said? ;D
Nonsense!
Evidence of plot by Joseph? Evidence his brother knew of the plot? Did Joseph magically predict what the sons of Jacob would say? Were Joseph's helpers all in on it and acting? Were they all happy to frame someone for theft?
1276 "...like that did We plan for Joseph..."
Tell us BelH, who did the plotting?
It seems that you are having a problem to understand 1259 to 1269
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Peace belH
May I give a piece of advice, if you do not know something, especially serious, it is no sin to say Allahu aalam, I thought they teach you that in sunni school 101.
The God knows best, Allah knows best... no need to feel cornered and you are relieved of duty, see easy
Allah does not burden a soul more than it can bear... it seems to me you always want to be right, and it is a very bad habit... -
Nonsense!
Firstly, what order by their master Joseph are you referring to?! If you are referring to 1279 then this was said after! Will you now be forced to suggest Joseph's helpers were telepathic? or time-travellers who went into the future to hear Joseph's statement then returned and said what they said? ;D
We done with Firstly...What is secondly? or you don't have Secondly?
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peace BelH,
Rather than a vague reference to what I am apparently not understanding in 1259-69, how about you point out exactly what it is I am not understanding, and then we can see if it helps prove your case or not.
The evidence is stacking up heavily in favour of my rendition, unless you can show otherwise.
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peace BelH,
Rather than a vague reference to what I am apparently not understanding in 1259-69, how about you point out exactly what it is I am not understanding, and then we can see if it helps prove your case or not.
The evidence is stacking up heavily in favour of my rendition, unless you can show otherwise.
1259 So, when he furnished them with their provisions, he said Bring me a brother of yours who is from your father. Do you not see that I give full measure of grain and that I am the best of hosts? (Plot Began to make them bring their brother)
1260 But if you do not bring him to me, then there shall be no measure of grain for you with me, and do not come near me.
1261 They said We will try to get him away from his father, and we shall be successful. (Plotting)
1262 And he said to his servants Return their goods into their saddlebags, so that they may recognize it when they return to their family so that they may come back. (Plotting)
1263 So when they returned to their father, they said Our father, we have been banned from getting anymore measure of grain, so send our brother with us so we may be given a measure of grain, and we will be his guardians. (fall for the Plot)
1264 He said Shall I trust him with you as I trusted you with Joseph before that? God is the best guardian, and He is the Most Merciful of those who show mercy.
1265 So when they opened their baggage, they found their goods had been returned to them, and they said Our father, what more can we desire, these are our goods returned to us, so we can get more for our family, and be guardians over our brother, and increase a measure of grain to load a camel. That is truly an easy measure! (falling for the plot)
1266 He said I will not send him with you until you come to me with a covenant to God that you will bring him back unless you are completely overtaken.So when they brought him their covenant, he said God is placed in trust over what we say.
1267 And he said My sons, do not enter from one gate, but enter from separate gates; and I cannot avail you anything against God, for the judgment is to God. In Him I place my trust, and in Him those who place their trust should trust.
1268 And when they entered from where their father had commanded them, it would not have availed them in the least against God, but it was out of a concern in the soul of Jacob that he brought out. And he is with knowledge for what We taught him, but most of the people do not know.
1269 And when they entered upon Joseph, he called his brother to himself and said I am your brother (Here when Yousuf told his brother before stealing announcement started), so do not be saddened by what they have done.
1270 So when he furnished them with their provisions, he placed the measuring bowl in the saddlebag of his brother, then a caller cried out O you in the caravan, you are thieves! ( ! They know who would be the thieve and who they would be taking before they started looking for the stolen item) -
Well, as I see this translation supports my argument, however, the person who translate it (Which I know is not you) did not translate word by word, rather he wrote what it implies too.
Here is any easy request to all the Arabic speakers or non-arabic who know arabic, Complete the Missing English Word ("?-?-?"
The "?-?-?"
from
Type
The ActPeace all
try these "?-?-?" = consequence / implication / end-result
but whatever, you are really beating around the bush bro...
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try these "?-?-?" = consequence / implication / end-result
but whatever, you are really beating around the bush bro...
Then translation can be
The "consequence"
from
Type
The ActThe Consequence (Reward or Punishment) is from the Type of Action
bravo And that is the Most closest we can get when translating to English.
Nabstr...This time I'm truly thanking you.
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belH Peace
this also needs a good command of english too by the way...
another word you can use is outcome...
my answer came after i woke up...
our brains work while we sleep, i believe we get inspired by Allah or Satan depending on how we primed ourselves
but our Soul is Allah's property, be it believer of not...Then translation can be
The "consequence"
from
Type
The ActThe Consequence (Reward or Punishment) is from the Type of Action
bravo And that is the Most closest we can get when translating to English.
Nabstr...This time I'm truly thanking you.
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belH Peace
this also needs a good command of english too by the way...
another word you can use is outcome...
my answer came after i woke up...
our brains work while we sleep, i believe we get inspired by Allah or Satan depending on how we primed ourselves
but our Soul is Allah's property, be it believer of not...Peace,
I have to admit You did a good and honest job in this one; therefore, the translation of 12-75 Belongs to you (may Good reward you for it).Allow me to try to translate it (if you think I did not do it right, please go ahead and fix it...after all, it is yours)
They Said
His consequence/outcome
who
found
in
his bag
then him ("fa" means so/then)
its His consequence/outcome
like that
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoers
