Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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Sorry to disappoint you belH, but last translation is mine,
but i am allowed to use resources, as everyone does, i still use dictionaries for english, and french too btw ;Dnow i still say that the meaning because Allah in his wisdom did not separate the male and the female, did not put a clear strong emphasis like zina, allowed repentance involvement, and that cutting off have multiple meaning, the one you refer to being unacceptable because how can you remove two hands in one go from same individual, the only option is to cut the perpetrators off from their actions, and either allow them to repent (if they can afford to by paying back the money), or use them at the discretion of the state, and the decision of the shura...
this is my understanding, i believe it is reasonable, and it does not need Mr Bukhari or other external intervention, because it uses plain mantiq (logic).
oh and btw i am 3/4 arab (descendant from mulay Idriss I of Morocco) and 1/4 Ottoman turk if you wish to know, but i told you something already about my genealogy, but you think that i am an imam liar...Well, as I see this translation supports my argument, however, the person who translate it (Which I know is not you) did not translate word by word, rather he wrote what it implies too.
Here is any easy request to all the Arabic speakers or non-arabic who know arabic, Complete the Missing English Word ("?-?-?"
The "?-?-?"
from
Type
The ActPeace all
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peace BelH, all,
The free-minds.org translation has no authority in translation, and is imperfect like ALL translations. Rather than attempting an "appeal to popularity" fallacy, perhaps you can address my questions with answers. As a sidenote, if they change it, will you admit you were wrong?
Can you cite a Classical Arabic dictionary with the word meaning of "punishment"?
His Punishment
who
found
in
his bag
then him ("fa" means so/then)
his Punishment
like that
We Punish
the wrongdoersI note by your revised word for word translation that you kept in some of what I corrected. Allow me to correct you further
In 1274 it is not "the punishment" (as you put it), it is "his/its punishment". Of course, since you have opted for "jazaohu" to mean "his punishment" throughout, let's stick with your rendition and put it in and see what happens
1270 ...then a caller cried out "O you in the caravan, you (plural) are thieves! (plural)"
1271 They (sons of Jacob) said, turning towards them (Egyptians) "What is it you are missing?"
1272 They (Egyptians) said "We are missing the measuring bowl of the King, and for whomever can produce it, we will give a camel's load, and I will be bound by this."
1273 They (sons of Jacob) said, "By God, you know we did not come to cause corruption in the land, and we are no thieves!". (plural throughout)
1274 They (Egyptians) said "What shall be his punishment, if you (plural) are liars? (plural)"Tell us BelH, why do the victims of theft initially accuse them using the plural in 1270, then magically figure out only one of them did it and use the singular "his" in the first part of the sentence but then use the plural in the rest of their sentence in 1274?
;D
If you fail to answer the above, then let us know the correct rendition of "jazaohu", seeing as you know Arabic.
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Tell us BelH, why do the victims of theft initially accuse them using the plural in 1270, then magically figure out only one of them did it and use the singular "his" in the first part of the sentence but then use the plural in the rest of their sentence in 1274?
Simply because they (Yousuf's Helpers) followed their Master (Yousuf) order to only punish the One who Stole the One thing. Hence, one think can only be found in one Bag that is carried by One of Them. )
Also, do not forget that this was a plot by Yousuf so he can take his Brother, whom knew about the plot (because yousuf told him) before the investigation started. (i.e., yousuf knew He will find the Stolen one thing in His Brother Bag)
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Simply because they (Yousuf's Helpers) followed their Master (Yousuf) order to only punish the One who Stole the One thing. Hence, one think can only be found in one Bag that is carried by One of Them. )
Nonsense!
Firstly, what order by their master Joseph are you referring to?! If you are referring to 1279 then this was said after! Will you now be forced to suggest Joseph's helpers were telepathic? or time-travellers who went into the future to hear Joseph's statement then returned and said what they said? ;D
Also, do not forget that this was a plot by Yousuf so he can take his Brother, whom knew about the plot (because yousuf told him) before the investigation started. (i.e., yousuf knew He will find the Stolen one thing in His Brother Bag)
Nonsense!
Evidence of plot by Joseph? Evidence his brother knew of the plot? Did Joseph magically predict what the sons of Jacob would say? Were Joseph's helpers all in on it and acting? Were they all happy to frame someone for theft?
1276 "...like that did We plan for Joseph..."
Tell us BelH, who did the plotting?
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Nonsense!
Firstly, what order by their master Joseph are you referring to?! If you are referring to 1279 then this was said after! Will you now be forced to suggest Joseph's helpers were telepathic? or time-travellers who went into the future to hear Joseph's statement then returned and said what they said? ;D
Nonsense!
Evidence of plot by Joseph? Evidence his brother knew of the plot? Did Joseph magically predict what the sons of Jacob would say? Were Joseph's helpers all in on it and acting? Were they all happy to frame someone for theft?
1276 "...like that did We plan for Joseph..."
Tell us BelH, who did the plotting?
It seems that you are having a problem to understand 1259 to 1269
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Peace belH
May I give a piece of advice, if you do not know something, especially serious, it is no sin to say Allahu aalam, I thought they teach you that in sunni school 101.
The God knows best, Allah knows best... no need to feel cornered and you are relieved of duty, see easy
Allah does not burden a soul more than it can bear... it seems to me you always want to be right, and it is a very bad habit... -
Nonsense!
Firstly, what order by their master Joseph are you referring to?! If you are referring to 1279 then this was said after! Will you now be forced to suggest Joseph's helpers were telepathic? or time-travellers who went into the future to hear Joseph's statement then returned and said what they said? ;D
We done with Firstly...What is secondly? or you don't have Secondly?
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peace BelH,
Rather than a vague reference to what I am apparently not understanding in 1259-69, how about you point out exactly what it is I am not understanding, and then we can see if it helps prove your case or not.
The evidence is stacking up heavily in favour of my rendition, unless you can show otherwise.
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peace BelH,
Rather than a vague reference to what I am apparently not understanding in 1259-69, how about you point out exactly what it is I am not understanding, and then we can see if it helps prove your case or not.
The evidence is stacking up heavily in favour of my rendition, unless you can show otherwise.
1259 So, when he furnished them with their provisions, he said Bring me a brother of yours who is from your father. Do you not see that I give full measure of grain and that I am the best of hosts? (Plot Began to make them bring their brother)
1260 But if you do not bring him to me, then there shall be no measure of grain for you with me, and do not come near me.
1261 They said We will try to get him away from his father, and we shall be successful. (Plotting)
1262 And he said to his servants Return their goods into their saddlebags, so that they may recognize it when they return to their family so that they may come back. (Plotting)
1263 So when they returned to their father, they said Our father, we have been banned from getting anymore measure of grain, so send our brother with us so we may be given a measure of grain, and we will be his guardians. (fall for the Plot)
1264 He said Shall I trust him with you as I trusted you with Joseph before that? God is the best guardian, and He is the Most Merciful of those who show mercy.
1265 So when they opened their baggage, they found their goods had been returned to them, and they said Our father, what more can we desire, these are our goods returned to us, so we can get more for our family, and be guardians over our brother, and increase a measure of grain to load a camel. That is truly an easy measure! (falling for the plot)
1266 He said I will not send him with you until you come to me with a covenant to God that you will bring him back unless you are completely overtaken.So when they brought him their covenant, he said God is placed in trust over what we say.
1267 And he said My sons, do not enter from one gate, but enter from separate gates; and I cannot avail you anything against God, for the judgment is to God. In Him I place my trust, and in Him those who place their trust should trust.
1268 And when they entered from where their father had commanded them, it would not have availed them in the least against God, but it was out of a concern in the soul of Jacob that he brought out. And he is with knowledge for what We taught him, but most of the people do not know.
1269 And when they entered upon Joseph, he called his brother to himself and said I am your brother (Here when Yousuf told his brother before stealing announcement started), so do not be saddened by what they have done.
1270 So when he furnished them with their provisions, he placed the measuring bowl in the saddlebag of his brother, then a caller cried out O you in the caravan, you are thieves! ( ! They know who would be the thieve and who they would be taking before they started looking for the stolen item) -
Well, as I see this translation supports my argument, however, the person who translate it (Which I know is not you) did not translate word by word, rather he wrote what it implies too.
Here is any easy request to all the Arabic speakers or non-arabic who know arabic, Complete the Missing English Word ("?-?-?"
The "?-?-?"
from
Type
The ActPeace all
try these "?-?-?" = consequence / implication / end-result
but whatever, you are really beating around the bush bro...
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try these "?-?-?" = consequence / implication / end-result
but whatever, you are really beating around the bush bro...
Then translation can be
The "consequence"
from
Type
The ActThe Consequence (Reward or Punishment) is from the Type of Action
bravo And that is the Most closest we can get when translating to English.
Nabstr...This time I'm truly thanking you.
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belH Peace
this also needs a good command of english too by the way...
another word you can use is outcome...
my answer came after i woke up...
our brains work while we sleep, i believe we get inspired by Allah or Satan depending on how we primed ourselves
but our Soul is Allah's property, be it believer of not...Then translation can be
The "consequence"
from
Type
The ActThe Consequence (Reward or Punishment) is from the Type of Action
bravo And that is the Most closest we can get when translating to English.
Nabstr...This time I'm truly thanking you.
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belH Peace
this also needs a good command of english too by the way...
another word you can use is outcome...
my answer came after i woke up...
our brains work while we sleep, i believe we get inspired by Allah or Satan depending on how we primed ourselves
but our Soul is Allah's property, be it believer of not...Peace,
I have to admit You did a good and honest job in this one; therefore, the translation of 12-75 Belongs to you (may Good reward you for it).Allow me to try to translate it (if you think I did not do it right, please go ahead and fix it...after all, it is yours)
They Said
His consequence/outcome
who
found
in
his bag
then him ("fa" means so/then)
its His consequence/outcome
like that
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoers -
Peace belH
I and all of us belong to Allah and to Him shall we return.
Allah knows best.
What I understand might be wrong, and this is why shura is very important, and we have a huge responsibility because we can understand arabic better, being born into it...
One thing we cannot do, is go for the easy answers and short cuts of old, they did not work before, and now there is even less chance
they will work...
but point scoring is not for me bro... -
belH peace and forgiveness
outcome is better as consequence cannot be used for a person,
so
They Said
His outcome
who < ---- do u mean Benjamin? or the item stolen, if item stolen then what
was found
in
his bag
then that ("fa" means so/then)
is His outcome
in this way do
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoersAllah knows best
Peace,
I have to admit You did a good and honest job in this one; therefore, the translation of 12-75 Belongs to you (may Good reward you for it).Allow me to try to translate it (if you think I did not do it right, please go ahead and fix it...after all, it is yours)
They Said
His consequence/outcome
who
found
in
his bag
then him ("fa" means so/then)
its His consequence/outcome
like that
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoers -
belH peace and forgiveness
outcome is better as consequence cannot be used for a person,
so
They Said
His outcome
who < ---- do u mean Benjamin? or the item stolen, if item stolen then what
was found
in
his bag
then that ("fa" means so/then)
is His outcome
in this way do
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoersAllah knows best
Peace,
I agree with your translation...may this would be your ticket to God's Mercy.
And may God forgive us for mistreating each others.
peace -
belH peace,
don't worry bro,
i have thick skin, and sharp teeth ... lol ;DD and let us not forget that Satan loves to come between the believers... >D
Peace,
I agree with your translation...may this would be your ticket to God's Mercy.
And may God forgive us for mistreating each others.
peace -
peace BelH,
Your underlining in 1267-68 is irrelevant, unless you can explain the reason why it gives weight to your view. I recommend M.Asad's notes on Joseph's story.
Your following statement is nonsensical, unless you can clarify
They know who would be the thieve and who they would be taking before they started looking for the stolen item)
So, Joseph's helpers didn't mind framing someone for theft? Were they in on the plot from the start then? Were they acting? Did the whole plan rely upon the unpredictable recompense stated by the sons of Jacob? When Joseph's helpers said in 1274 "What shall be his punishment, if you (plural) are liars? (plural)" (according to you) did the plan reply upon NONE of the sons of Jacob thinking "hold on a second, why do you say/think it is only one of us?" All the sons of Jacob could have been in on the plan to steal the item.
And I note you conveniently skip some of my points/question
1276 "...like that did We plan for Joseph..."
Tell us BelH, who did the plotting?
I agree with your translation...may this would be your ticket to God's Mercy.
Of course you do! As it is filled with errors in the Arabic! Allow me to make bold the errors
They Said
His outcome
who < ---- do u mean Benjamin? or the item stolen, if item stolen then what
was found
in
his bag
then that ("fa" means so/then)
is His outcome
in this way do
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoersAnd here is some new evidence, which causes yet more problems for your view
wujida = 3rd person singular masculine passive perfect verb
passive means the object (cup) has received the action expressed in the verb.
If you need to come up with yet another rendition of 1275, feel free, but this time, remain true to the Arabic, and since you apparently know Arabic, this should be easy. Before you do, I recommend M.Asad's notes on the story, see www.quranix.net
Looking forward to see what you come up with next. ;D
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Side note, an interesting find could be when it says "...like that we recompense the wrongdoers" implies it is the sons of Jacob who said this, and this could imply they were following what Jacob's message commanded of them, and since Jacob was a messenger/prophet i.e. they were citing God's deen, and that is why AQ mentions "Joseph would not have been able to take his brother under the King's system/deen". Comparison of two deens? The King's deen, and the God's deen?
