Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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peace BelH,
Rather than a vague reference to what I am apparently not understanding in 1259-69, how about you point out exactly what it is I am not understanding, and then we can see if it helps prove your case or not.
The evidence is stacking up heavily in favour of my rendition, unless you can show otherwise.
1259 So, when he furnished them with their provisions, he said Bring me a brother of yours who is from your father. Do you not see that I give full measure of grain and that I am the best of hosts? (Plot Began to make them bring their brother)
1260 But if you do not bring him to me, then there shall be no measure of grain for you with me, and do not come near me.
1261 They said We will try to get him away from his father, and we shall be successful. (Plotting)
1262 And he said to his servants Return their goods into their saddlebags, so that they may recognize it when they return to their family so that they may come back. (Plotting)
1263 So when they returned to their father, they said Our father, we have been banned from getting anymore measure of grain, so send our brother with us so we may be given a measure of grain, and we will be his guardians. (fall for the Plot)
1264 He said Shall I trust him with you as I trusted you with Joseph before that? God is the best guardian, and He is the Most Merciful of those who show mercy.
1265 So when they opened their baggage, they found their goods had been returned to them, and they said Our father, what more can we desire, these are our goods returned to us, so we can get more for our family, and be guardians over our brother, and increase a measure of grain to load a camel. That is truly an easy measure! (falling for the plot)
1266 He said I will not send him with you until you come to me with a covenant to God that you will bring him back unless you are completely overtaken.So when they brought him their covenant, he said God is placed in trust over what we say.
1267 And he said My sons, do not enter from one gate, but enter from separate gates; and I cannot avail you anything against God, for the judgment is to God. In Him I place my trust, and in Him those who place their trust should trust.
1268 And when they entered from where their father had commanded them, it would not have availed them in the least against God, but it was out of a concern in the soul of Jacob that he brought out. And he is with knowledge for what We taught him, but most of the people do not know.
1269 And when they entered upon Joseph, he called his brother to himself and said I am your brother (Here when Yousuf told his brother before stealing announcement started), so do not be saddened by what they have done.
1270 So when he furnished them with their provisions, he placed the measuring bowl in the saddlebag of his brother, then a caller cried out O you in the caravan, you are thieves! ( ! They know who would be the thieve and who they would be taking before they started looking for the stolen item) -
Well, as I see this translation supports my argument, however, the person who translate it (Which I know is not you) did not translate word by word, rather he wrote what it implies too.
Here is any easy request to all the Arabic speakers or non-arabic who know arabic, Complete the Missing English Word ("?-?-?"
The "?-?-?"
from
Type
The ActPeace all
try these "?-?-?" = consequence / implication / end-result
but whatever, you are really beating around the bush bro...
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try these "?-?-?" = consequence / implication / end-result
but whatever, you are really beating around the bush bro...
Then translation can be
The "consequence"
from
Type
The ActThe Consequence (Reward or Punishment) is from the Type of Action
bravo And that is the Most closest we can get when translating to English.
Nabstr...This time I'm truly thanking you.
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belH Peace
this also needs a good command of english too by the way...
another word you can use is outcome...
my answer came after i woke up...
our brains work while we sleep, i believe we get inspired by Allah or Satan depending on how we primed ourselves
but our Soul is Allah's property, be it believer of not...Then translation can be
The "consequence"
from
Type
The ActThe Consequence (Reward or Punishment) is from the Type of Action
bravo And that is the Most closest we can get when translating to English.
Nabstr...This time I'm truly thanking you.
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belH Peace
this also needs a good command of english too by the way...
another word you can use is outcome...
my answer came after i woke up...
our brains work while we sleep, i believe we get inspired by Allah or Satan depending on how we primed ourselves
but our Soul is Allah's property, be it believer of not...Peace,
I have to admit You did a good and honest job in this one; therefore, the translation of 12-75 Belongs to you (may Good reward you for it).Allow me to try to translate it (if you think I did not do it right, please go ahead and fix it...after all, it is yours)
They Said
His consequence/outcome
who
found
in
his bag
then him ("fa" means so/then)
its His consequence/outcome
like that
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoers -
Peace belH
I and all of us belong to Allah and to Him shall we return.
Allah knows best.
What I understand might be wrong, and this is why shura is very important, and we have a huge responsibility because we can understand arabic better, being born into it...
One thing we cannot do, is go for the easy answers and short cuts of old, they did not work before, and now there is even less chance
they will work...
but point scoring is not for me bro... -
belH peace and forgiveness
outcome is better as consequence cannot be used for a person,
so
They Said
His outcome
who < ---- do u mean Benjamin? or the item stolen, if item stolen then what
was found
in
his bag
then that ("fa" means so/then)
is His outcome
in this way do
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoersAllah knows best
Peace,
I have to admit You did a good and honest job in this one; therefore, the translation of 12-75 Belongs to you (may Good reward you for it).Allow me to try to translate it (if you think I did not do it right, please go ahead and fix it...after all, it is yours)
They Said
His consequence/outcome
who
found
in
his bag
then him ("fa" means so/then)
its His consequence/outcome
like that
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoers -
belH peace and forgiveness
outcome is better as consequence cannot be used for a person,
so
They Said
His outcome
who < ---- do u mean Benjamin? or the item stolen, if item stolen then what
was found
in
his bag
then that ("fa" means so/then)
is His outcome
in this way do
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoersAllah knows best
Peace,
I agree with your translation...may this would be your ticket to God's Mercy.
And may God forgive us for mistreating each others.
peace -
belH peace,
don't worry bro,
i have thick skin, and sharp teeth ... lol ;DD and let us not forget that Satan loves to come between the believers... >D
Peace,
I agree with your translation...may this would be your ticket to God's Mercy.
And may God forgive us for mistreating each others.
peace -
peace BelH,
Your underlining in 1267-68 is irrelevant, unless you can explain the reason why it gives weight to your view. I recommend M.Asad's notes on Joseph's story.
Your following statement is nonsensical, unless you can clarify
They know who would be the thieve and who they would be taking before they started looking for the stolen item)
So, Joseph's helpers didn't mind framing someone for theft? Were they in on the plot from the start then? Were they acting? Did the whole plan rely upon the unpredictable recompense stated by the sons of Jacob? When Joseph's helpers said in 1274 "What shall be his punishment, if you (plural) are liars? (plural)" (according to you) did the plan reply upon NONE of the sons of Jacob thinking "hold on a second, why do you say/think it is only one of us?" All the sons of Jacob could have been in on the plan to steal the item.
And I note you conveniently skip some of my points/question
1276 "...like that did We plan for Joseph..."
Tell us BelH, who did the plotting?
I agree with your translation...may this would be your ticket to God's Mercy.
Of course you do! As it is filled with errors in the Arabic! Allow me to make bold the errors
They Said
His outcome
who < ---- do u mean Benjamin? or the item stolen, if item stolen then what
was found
in
his bag
then that ("fa" means so/then)
is His outcome
in this way do
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoersAnd here is some new evidence, which causes yet more problems for your view
wujida = 3rd person singular masculine passive perfect verb
passive means the object (cup) has received the action expressed in the verb.
If you need to come up with yet another rendition of 1275, feel free, but this time, remain true to the Arabic, and since you apparently know Arabic, this should be easy. Before you do, I recommend M.Asad's notes on the story, see www.quranix.net
Looking forward to see what you come up with next. ;D
#########
Side note, an interesting find could be when it says "...like that we recompense the wrongdoers" implies it is the sons of Jacob who said this, and this could imply they were following what Jacob's message commanded of them, and since Jacob was a messenger/prophet i.e. they were citing God's deen, and that is why AQ mentions "Joseph would not have been able to take his brother under the King's system/deen". Comparison of two deens? The King's deen, and the God's deen?
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Peace all,
Wakas, let us take it one by one...First, is there was a Plot or no?who do you think placed the Measuring bowl in the bag of Yousuf's Brother?
1270 So when he furnished them with their provisions, he placed the measuring bowl in the saddlebag of his brother, then a caller cried out O you in the caravan, you are thieves!
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Peace all,
Wakas, let us take it one by one...second, the passive verbRemember, I understand Arabic very well because it is my natural language (All my studies, except for graduate, were in Arabic).
So, have an open mind when arguing about Arabic Language.Quote
wujida = 3rd person singular masculine passive perfect verbpassive means the object (cup) has received the action expressed in the verb.
end quotewas found (i.e., the cup is the object under search)
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Peace all,
As Everyone can see, Free-minds.org has translated the Quran in a way to fit its doctrine (5-3. As I showed, 12-75 is an example of which wakas tried to translate in a way to fit 5-38.
Please compare the below word by word translation and see if it supports their translation of 5-38, as they claimThey Said
His outcome
whom
is found (cup is found)
in
his bag
then it is
His outcome
in this way do
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoersHere is the quote from the twisted article Wakas has been referencing too (http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm)
Began Quote
It should be said however that the only working example given in The Quran of theft and its punishment is in the story of Joseph, in which option 3 is done by detaining the one guilty of theft, so that they can work to repay/compensate for the theft.They said, "By God, you know we did not come to cause corruption in the land, and we are no thieves!"
He said, "What shall be the punishment, if you are not truthful?"
They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag, he shall be the penalty for it. It is such that we punish the wicked."End Quote
Finally,
Here is a scenario that I want you to participate inAn Island in which a group of families decided to start their Quran Alone Community that is governed by the Quran Laws.
Every one in the Island is guaranteed to have all the life necessities (through a Job or through charities funds) ...After a while, one of the community member had a Bad habit of stealing any thing he can put his hand on...The community decided to appoint you (any one of you) as a Judge who will use the Quran only to issue judgment in the case.
While issuing a Quranic Judgment, take into consideration the following
The thief has been caught and released many times after he promised that he would not do again.Peace
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peace BelH,
Yes, let's take things one at a time. I will answer your questions, even though you disrespectfully do not answer mine
Was there a plot?
Yes, it was God's plan .Who placed the cup in the bag of Joseph's brother?
Joseph.was found (i.e., the cup is the object under search)
I agree.
Now, onto my questions
Have you read M.Asad's notes on this story? If so, right or wrong?
If Joseph put the cup in his brother's bag, does this mean he planned the plot?
If you answer yes to the above question, does that mean his plan was reliant upon his helpers noticing the cup was gone, AND the unpredictable response of the sons of Jacob AND them not noticing the illogical switch in plural to singular to plural in the helper's statements?
According to 1276 who planned the plot?
Can you cite a Classical Arabic dictionary stating "jazao" means "punishment"?
If "jazaohu" means "his outcome" (according to you) in 1274, then please explain the illogical use of plural, then singular, then plural by the helpers?And thanks for providing yet another rendition of 1275 but there is a mistake in the grammar (highlighted in bold), not that I agree with your translation
They Said
His outcome
whom
is found (cup is found)
in
his bag
then it is
His outcome
in this way do
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoershuwa = 3rd person singular masculine personal pronoun, meaning "he".
As opposed to the "hu" in "jazaohu" which is a possessive pronoun.So BelH, please try yet another rendition, since you know Arabic and all. And whilst your at it, confirm to us all how your rendition is exactly the way it would be said in Arabic if it meant what you think it means.
Remember, I understand Arabic very well because it is my natural language (All my studies, except for graduate, were in Arabic).
So, have an open mind when arguing about Arabic Language.Oh I have an open mind, dont worry. My mind is so open that I think knowing Arabic is no match for the power of logic/reasoning.
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Peace all,
Wakas, let us take it one by one...First, is there was a Plot or no?who do you think placed the Measuring bowl in the bag of Yousuf's Brother?
1270 So when he furnished them with their provisions, he placed the measuring bowl in the saddlebag of his brother, then a caller cried out O you in the caravan, you are thieves!
It was God's plan, Joseph carried it out.
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Peace all,
As Everyone can see, Free-minds.org has translated the Quran in a way to fit its doctrine (5-3. As I showed, 12-75 is an example of which wakas tried to translate in a way to fit 5-38.
Please compare the below word by word translation and see if it supports their translation of 5-38, as they claimThey Said
His outcome
whom
is found (cup is found)
in
his bag
then it is
His outcome
in this way do
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoersHere is the quote from the twisted article Wakas has been referencing too (http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm)
Began Quote
It should be said however that the only working example given in The Quran of theft and its punishment is in the story of Joseph, in which option 3 is done by detaining the one guilty of theft, so that they can work to repay/compensate for the theft.They said, "By God, you know we did not come to cause corruption in the land, and we are no thieves!"
He said, "What shall be the punishment, if you are not truthful?"
They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag, he shall be the penalty for it. It is such that we punish the wicked."End Quote
Finally,
Here is a scenario that I want you to participate inAn Island in which a group of families decided to start their Quran Alone Community that is governed by the Quran Laws.
Every one in the Island is guaranteed to have all the life necessities (through a Job or through charities funds) ...After a while, one of the community member had a Bad habit of stealing any thing he can put his hand on...The community decided to appoint you (any one of you) as a Judge who will use the Quran only to issue judgment in the case.
While issuing a Quranic Judgment, take into consideration the following
The thief has been caught and released many times after he promised that he would not do again.Peace
Am i learning from a wrong teacher confused
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Have you read M.Asad's notes on this story? If so, right or wrong?
No...but I will be glad to comment if you quote the part you want me to comment on.
If Joseph put the cup in his brother's bag, does this mean he planned the plot?
As Jack said, Yousuf carried the planned plot. (every thing that happen in our life depends on God's well for it to happen or not)
If you answer yes to the above question, does that mean his plan was reliant upon his helpers noticing the cup was gone, AND the unpredictable response of the sons of Jacob AND them not noticing the illogical switch in plural to singular to plural in the helper's statements?
I'm having a problem to understand the point...but, The helpers only follow their master (yousuf) orders. The helper were told by Yousuf to catch one and not all as a group, simply because Yousuf wanted His brother only. But if He wanted to arrest all, he would have ordered them to do so, then the PLURAL would have stayed PLURAL.
If "jazaohu" means "his outcome" (according to you) in 1274, then please explain the illogical use of plural, then singular, then plural by the helpers?
Answered above
They Said
His outcome
whom
is found (cup is found)
in
his bag
then it is
His outcome
in this way do
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoershuwa = 3rd person singular masculine personal pronoun, meaning "he".
As opposed to the "hu" in "jazaohu" which is a possessive pronoun.Huwa= 3rd thing masculine Huwa is Referring TO The Outcome....thus, I used "It"
So BelH, please try yet another rendition, since you know Arabic and all. And whilst your at it, confirm to us all how your rendition is exactly the way it would be said in Arabic if it meant what you think it means.
can you explain further.
And I agree with you, knowing Arabic is not enough to understand the Quran...
Can you be the judge on this case
An Island in which a group of families decided to start their Quran Alone Community that is governed by the Quran Laws.
Every one in the Island is guaranteed to have all the life necessities (through a Job or through charities funds) ...After a while, one of the community member had a Bad habit of stealing any thing he can put his hand on...The community decided to appoint you (any one of you) as a Judge who will use the Quran only to issue judgment in the case.
While issuing a Quranic Judgment, take into consideration the following
The thief has been caught and released many times after he promised that he would not do again. -
Peace belH, Wakas,
you are still arguing on this subject, you are very patient, i command you )
for me it is not joseph story that convince me that amputating hand is not what the ayah means,
only the way the sentence is written, the logic of the way we can deal with such offenses, and the fact that
Allah does not command stupid things, the Most Wise.
now for the reason Joseph story cannot be taken as proof anyway, is because nothing was forbidden to bani israeel but
what bani israeel forbade themselves before revelation of Torah to Moses...
for your hypothetical example of desert island and repeat offender, as a judge, i will enforce forced labour under guard or in confinement away from the community with people like him, or even putting to death...
i am sorry, taking prisoners or mutilating for me is not islamic and is an abomination, and if they have been mentioned in the Quran, is only to show the powerful disbelievers that this is how they should be punished because this is how they punish their weak people and slaves before (but instead have no law for themselves and a law for their slaves)...
How can you accept that a Deen that encourage people to free slaves, will then encourage mutilation and taking prisoners?
even killing is last resort, and it has to be with consultation with victims who can accept compensation and forgive...
In Islam, there should not be prisons, no torture, no maiming, no mutilation, and no encouragement to slavery, in fact the only reason slavery was tolerated still is because it was so prevalent at the time of the Prophet, but eventually, the Quran showed that the reward to free slaves is very high with Allah...
the only corporal punishment for the believers in the Quran is Zina, it is clearly defined, clearly explained, and in a Surah that is very powerful...
take it or leave it, but this is my strong belief...
alfitnatu ashaddu minalkatli -
I do not think the "consequence" is a good translation for . It's best translated as "recompense".
My understanding is
1274
(the pronoun in refers to the cup the recompense for the cup)
They said what's its recompense if you were liars?1274They said its recompense, whoever it's found in his bag is its recompense. 1275
