Abortion is Murder, IF...
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Dear Edip Yuksel,
"We know that almost every law has some exceptions, or conditions. For instance, acording to the Quran, the first and second cmmendments, that is, idol worship, is an unforgivable sin IF it is maintained until death after 40 years of life."
I do not know about this time limit of 40 years.
The Quran is telling us that to worship idols is un-forgivable, but that the definition of idol worship is not ours to make.Would you kindly give your comments on this?
Best regds
Ali Omar
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Dear Ali Omar and 2Pac
Verse 4615 implies that a person should repent from his sins at age 40, which is described as the age of RUSHD, that is maturity.
Merciful God has given us 40 years to make up our minds. Since, we are expected to question the religion of our parents and friends, it does not make sense to believe that a teenager will go to Hell if he does not discover God alone.
Those whith shallow thinking have always demonstrated knee-jerk reaction to this issue and I had many detailed discussion on it. Currently, I do not have access to my macintosh computer, which contains many of my correspondance on this topic. I do not have much time now. I wish I colud collect and publish my correspondance on this and other issues someday.
Peace;
Edip -
Dear Edip Yuksel,
I find a number of verses in the Quran telling about the irreparable sin to die as disbelievers, but not that you are not forgiven if you reach the age of, let?s say, 41 before you change your ways?
I rather understand it such that at the age of 40, a human should, normally, have acquired sufficient knowledge to enable him/her to understand that he/she ought to submit to God.
Otherwise, there is no hope for a sinful human being after the age of 40, whereas a human being may live a sinful life until that age, and I have difficulties believing this.Best regds
Ali Omar
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Dear Edip Yuksel,
I find a number of verses in the Quran telling about the irreparable sin to die as disbelievers, but not that you are not forgiven if you reach the age of, let?s say, 41 before you change your ways?
I rather understand it such that at the age of 40, a human should, normally, have acquired sufficient knowledge to enable him/her to understand that he/she ought to submit to God.
Otherwise, there is no hope for a sinful human being after the age of 40, whereas a human being may live a sinful life until that age, and I have difficulties believing this.Best regds
Ali Omar
Look..if you're leading a very sinful life, then God might as well let you live to the age of 40+. It's that simple. God determines the end of our lives.
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peace
What if the age of "rushd" is dependent on the person?
I don't see how a set number could be this as if so then prehaps the Quran would have used the set number instead of the word "rushd" -
peace Edip,
NB
AQ = Al Quran
rushd = sound judgement
shudud = physica maturity (adolescence to adulthood)Verse 4615 implies that a person should repent from his sins at age 40, which is described as the age of RUSHD, that is maturity.
I'm not sure if you still hold this view or not, but it is definitely incorrect.
Where is age 40 described as age of "rushd"? Nowhere in AQ does it say this. Not only is this disproven by AQ, to say so would be illogical, as no-one suddenly becomes "rushd" at a certain age. I assume you meant to say "shudud"? But even so, this would be incorrect also, as "shudud" is the period from adolescence to adulthood. A person can be in the period of "shudud" but not have "rushd" as proven by AQ. As a side note, that is likely why no specific age of marriage is given in AQ.
To see the evidence, see the following article
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htmAQ often discusses archetypes, and 4615 is no different, unless we accept every 40yr old says this or has children, or everyone will say XYZ when in heaven, or when in hell, as AQ often examples.
In my humble opinion, the archetype discussed in 4615 is one who has reached parenthood themselves, and thus is becoming or is reflective of their own parents/parenthood, a person who is becoming or is now appreciative, and wants what is best for all, who came before him and who comes after him, i.e. a believer is one who wants for himself what he wants for others or preferences others . It is common to become reflective midway through one's life, and I believe this is fairly well documented.
That is all this verse is about, not some sort of magical age that gives someone a free pass if they die before it. This notion can be refuted by AQ, if you accept an orphan can receive wealth before 40, because to receive their wealth they must have "rushd", thus if a person has "rushd" then how can one imply it's still not enough "rushd" and God has given us until 40? This is logically inconsistant. Interestingly, this may imply anyone who dies without "rushd", I am assuming pre-puberty going by AQ, they would end up in heaven, same as the mentally incapable etc. I have not studied this as I just thought of it now but it seems logically consistant. -
@ Edip
First of all I want to praise Edip for his excellent article. It is Quranic and it doesnt just reflect emotions and personal opinions about abortion as I have seen from other articles.
@ Wakas
Let me give you a possible translation of a part of 4615...
"Until he has attained his maturity (ashudan), that is (wa), when he has reached the age of 40".
The thing I did was to take the "wa" as an explanation and not as an addition.
ashudan = maturity
From PRL
Shiin-Dal-Dal = to bind tightly, strap, strengthen firmly, run, establish, make firm, hard, strong, be advanced (day), be intense. ushdud - harden, strengthen. shadiid (pl. shidaad & ashidda'u - great, firm, strict, vehement, strong, violent, severe, mighty, terrible, stern, grievous, miserly, niggardly. (adj. of the forms fa'iil and fiaal are used indifferently for both m. and f.) ashuddun age of full strength, maturity. ishtadda (vb. - to act with violence, become hard.
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From http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/unorthodox.htm#ABORTION
Abortion is murder IF it is committed after the first trimester unless the mother's life is in danger. I do not recommend or even suggest abortion; but I believe that it should remain an option especially for the victims of traumatic circumstances, such as rape or incest.
The taking of any life must be murder. But having said that I agree that abortion should be an option, but only for the mother, if giving birth will endanger her life or other traumatic circumstances.
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So really then According to your Article, and the Quran as you have posted...
You basically can get pregnant Millions of times and have as much Abortions as you want.
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/tri.jpg humm.......I dont know man, it looks like a baby in there....whether or not it has a "Soul" or is By Definition in Webesters "A Child"..>I guess Id consider it a child.
So the Technically, If Someone was to Assault a Pregnant woman and Kill her Embryo, then Technically he didnt Kill her baby and is Innocent of Child Murder.
He then is really only guilty of Battery (physical assault).So then Technically, a Woman can smoke Marijuana and or Tobacco (depending on your View of the Quran on smoking) wile she is in her 1st Trimester.
So then Technically, a woman can just go happily get 27 abortions if she wanted to?Here is my new Question then...
If the Woman was NOT raped and was NOT subject to Incest...Can she still have an Abortion because of Fear of not being able to Have Financial Funds to take care of her soon to be baby?
I mean, in the Ayat, It Specifically says, "For Fear of Poverty"....So if the reason why she was having an abortion was because of "Fear of Poverty" does this make her Guilty?
I mean, Statistically, It would seem that MOST Abortions that Happen these days are because of Fear of Poverty...wile Rape and Insect are Present but are a Minority.
Just a thought !
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Interesting... every time I read 4615 I was a bit confused, thinking - pregnancy is not 6 months... this makes perfect sense. Also it seems like the heartbeat is heard very easily/strongly around that time as well.... and the risk of miscarriage is much less at that point.
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Killing a baby because it's unborn and doesn't have a soul is like killing a man and saying - he would've died eventually.
bravo
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Peace
On 2314 - I had misplaced this quote and had been looking for it for ages! Thanks for providing it. I had been attempting to verify whether the bones develop first followed by the skin.
However, most embryology text books to not go into such chronological detail, but merely go through the development different systems (neurological, urogenital etc.).
However, something I found today may well show that the Quran was right
http//www.childdevelopmentinfo.com/development/prenataldevelopment.shtml.
I am not sure about your subtraction method yet, but the Quran is clear that after flesh has formed than the creation is now a creature. Once I get the subtraction method, it will be interesting to compare how the two dates are aligned (scientific knowledge v Quranic).
Roshan
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Brother Edip,
Is there any evidence that an unborn baby gaine personhood 3months prior to birth? I will say no.
And the merciful lord say, the god brought you from the womb of your mother while you do not know anything. Meaning we only become conscious after delivery.
Abortion therefore at any stage is not murder.
THINK ABOUT IT.ZUBAIRUS.
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Well, we know from the Qur'an that the baby develops in stages. It is not just given a soul from the moment it's a clot of blood.
We all used to be clots of blood. Imagine if any of us here were aborted. Or imagine if out of all the babies aborted one of them would've cured a deadly illness. OR if one of your soul mates were aborted a long time ago? - Bye bye love of your life -[ .
I'm not saying I would lose my mind and go berserk if someone was to have an abortion but it saddens me.
And if a person don't feel like having safe sex, and they end up pregnant, they should live with the consequences. Too bad you can't abort an STD, right .But of course my opinion isn't final. If for instance a 13-year old girl would become pregnant I guess she should have an abortion if the baby is really really tiny - although I don't see any reason for a 13-year old girl to do the nasty-nasty.
And considering one of earths many problems is overpopulation. But that's another issue - ppl shouldn't have too many babies.
Or if they find out that the baby in any way has any kind of problem or difference before birth - I mean you wouldn't want a child to go through life feeling not normal... or is it cruel of me to say so?Well that's only my personal opinion - every women with an unplanned pregnancy knows herself the best and whether she feels it's a good enough world to bring a child into or not.
Peace!
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And considering one of earths many problems is overpopulation. But that's another issue - ppl shouldn't have too many babies.
I think that is a myth spread by the elite! we only use like 1-3% of the land on earth. There is turly enough land and water/resources for all of Humanity.
Allah wouldnt place us on a small earth that cant even hold us. lol.
I was reading some articles saying how there is totally Enough Land and resources, its just that the 1% of Rich elite who rule the world and own all of it, want to tell you there is only a small amount, so that you will pay extra for it.
Its like, They purposly make it a scarce nesseseity in order to ensure a great need and extra pay from all the slaves. There is no such thing as Overpopulated.
Its just Badily managed. D -
Well, we know from the Qur'an that the baby develops in stages. It is not just given a soul from the moment it's a clot of blood.
Peace
The Arabic word you refer to actually seems to mean 'something that clings'. This is scientifically accurate from the histological point of view too.
Roshan
