How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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Sex as a Marital Obligation
When you say, ?I do,? you have consented to sex anytime, anyplace, anyhow.
- Dr. Josephine Kasolo, director, Women and Children?s Crisis Centre, Kampala, December 10, 2002.
Individual women, NGO representatives, and government officials all referred to the prevalence of the belief that wives have no right to deny their husbands sex. A women?s rights activist declared, ?Men proceed under the common law assumption that saying ?I do,? means that you no longer have the right to say ?I don?t.??128 Human Rights Watch interviewed numerous women who felt obligated to have unprotected sex with their husbands, even those that were adulterous. Lydia Mbakile, a thirty-six-year-old HIV-positive widow, explained ?I think women should give their husbands sex. If you say ?that is my husband? you have to finish up the duties that he has delegated to you.?
A number of government representatives stressed that married or cohabiting women appeared to be at a far greater risk of HIV infection than single women. Joyce Namulondo at the Uganda AIDS Commission concurred ?A woman properly married in the home is at a greater risk as far as HIV/AIDS is concerned, the reason being the power relations. . . . The single woman does not have a contract.?
The fact that in some cases actual violence did not take place did not alter the coercive nature of these relationships. Women?s own belief that they had no authority over sex often made it unnecessary for husbands to rape unwilling wives. Masturah Tibegwya, a Munyankore, is forty-eight and lives in Luwero. She is on her second marriage, and first got married in 1966, at about the age of 16. Between the two marriages, she has had twelve children. She says that although her first husband was violent, he never had to force her to have sex because she knew her duty
He never forced me into sex. He would beat me for other things but not sex. . . . There were other times I had sex with him when I didn?t want to. I would just do it. What could I do? It?s the Banyankore tradition. . . . In our tradition the men don?t physically force you but they don?t need to. It is the honor of your parents. I have never used a condom. It?s taboo. I am HIV-positive. I don?t know where it came from. My first husband died. He died of AIDS.
Joy Kobushingye, forty-five, told a similar story. Her first husband died of AIDS in 1992 and she tested HIV-positive the same year. She continued to have sex with him despite his extramarital affairs. ?I still had sex with him even when he had other girlfriends. What do you do? Unless you intend to break the marriage. That is not a strong reason to leave a home. . . . I don?t know about forcing. There is no negotiation. You know that you must.?
Inability to Negotiate Condom Use
Many of the women were afraid to introduce the subject of prophylactic protection for fear of being beaten either for suspecting their husbands of having extramarital affairs, or because they might be accused of adultery themselves. When they did raise the subject of condom use, violence typically ensued. Margaret Namusisi, twenty-five, moved in with her husband when she was fourteen and he was forty. She explained why she continued to have unprotected sex with him despite her desire to stop having children ?There are times when I don?t feel like and tell him to use a condom, but he doesn?t want to. I?m on family planning. That causes disputes. When I tell him to use a condom he refuses. He accuses me of having other men. He goes away and doesn?t provide. So I have sex with him so that he can look after the children and won?t fight.?
Sara Kisakye?s account of her relationship with her ex-husband is a vivid illustration of the powerlessness many women experienced as a result of violence. Kisakye, a thirty-one-year-old Muganda woman, left her husband in January 2002 as a result of his violence and extramarital affairs. She described how her husband would refuse to use condoms and how he would often beat her because she refused to have unprotected sex with him. She explained
My husband hated condom use. He never allowed it. He would beat me often. . . . He used to beat me when I refused to sleep with him. . . . He wouldn?t use a condom. He said ?when we are man and woman married, how can we use a condom?? . . . It?s a wife?s duty to have sex with her husband because that is the main reason you come together. But there should be love. . . . When I knew about his girlfriends, I feared that I would get infected with HIV. But he didn?t listen to me. I tried to insist on using a condom but he refused. So I gave in because I really feared .
Many of the women interviewed by Human Rights Watch were unable to negotiate condom use even when their husbands had tested HIV-positive. Some of these women quoted husbands that had tested HIV-positive as saying that condoms were ineffective, or even that there was no reason for them to die alone. Khadija Nankwanga?s husband died of AIDS in 1995. Before he died, he repeatedly raped her and her three co-wives, one of whom died of AIDS soon after he passed away.
Nankwanga, a forty-two-year-old Musoga, told Human Rights Watch ?In counseling they told us about condoms but he didn?t want to use them because he didn?t want to leave us alive to remarry. . . . He promised to strangle us. He wasn?t violent but with that! There was not even any discussion.?
The inability to negotiate condom use is not only a concern with regard to potential HIV infection, but is also hazardous for HIV-positive women who face the danger of reinfection by their HIV-positive husbands. Joy Kobushingye?s current husband is also HIV-positive. Despite being aware of the danger of re-infection, Kobushingye feels that the greater danger is to stop having sex with her husband. ?I don?t know what I can do about my re-infection. I don?t know if he would leave me if I asked us to stop having sex or use a condom. I have never tried it. I don?t want to try it." Margaret Namusisi?s co-wife died of AIDS two years after she moved in, and now both she and her husband are HIV-positive. Her husband will not stop having sex with her despite the fact that they have received counseling on HIV reinfection. She told us, ?Stopping sleeping with him is difficult. We have been taught about reinfection. I told him that we have to have sex once a month and use a condom but he refused.?
http//www.hrw.org/reports/2003/uganda0803/5.htm
HIV/AIDS, says Tan, is more of a gender and economic issue.
A lot of women are not in the position to deny their spouse or protect themselves, which is why at one point in time, World Health Organisation statistics showed that up to 90 per cent of women, who have the virus, got it from the husbands.
This is especially true in very poor countries, where women have no say, says Tan.
"In Malaysia, many still can't say no to sex if their husbands insist. A condom can prevent the wife from being infected. But the question is whether the husband will actually want to use a condom."
In his outreach and support programmes, Tan has encountered numerous widows and children who have been infected with HIV.
Religion plays a double-pronged role - prevention and help - in combating this issue, says Tan.
Acting as a deterrent, religion helps people to refrain from indulging in acts that will endanger themselves and others.
But religion is also about compassion.
"When someone is infected, it's our role to help that someone. We can say that what the person has done is wrong, but we cannot condemn. Religion must help to redeem."
But for that to happen, Tan says one must be armed with facts and education.
"Being religious is good, but if one doesn't know about the virus and how it's spread, he won't be able to respond in a compassionate way.
"Condemning, ostracising, discriminating and not caring for them, doesn't improve the situation any bit."
HIV/AIDS is not a punishment from God, says Tan.
"Say, a poor lady gets the virus because she cannot protect herself. A rich woman sleeps around but because she knows about AIDS and how to protect herself, she doesn't get HIV.
"Does that mean God didn't punish her but God punished a woman who slogs in the kitchen every day and does all the housework, and who had sex with the husband who got infected outside?"
http//health.asiaone.com/Health/News/Story/A1Story20080508-64052.html
HIV/AIDS in Morocco
The age group predominantly affected is from 15 to 40 years old (69 percent). Ninety percent of the HIV-positive children are infected perinatally. Males account for 70 percent of the cases. The other particulars of AIDS in Morocco are 42 percent are bachelors; 35 percent are married women; 85 percent were infected while living in Morocco; and 15 percent are recent immigrants.
Transmission modes include heterosexual, 61 percent; homosexual, 10 percent; intravenous drug use, 9 percent; multi-risk, 8 percent; transfusion, 4 percent; perinatal, 4 percent; and unknown, 4 percent. Before the 1990s, the main modes of transmission were homosexual contact and IV-drug use; at present, the dominant mode of transmission is heterosexual intercourse
http//www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/morocco.html#11
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Peace Leyna
You were the one who brought up the issue of divorce rate, suggesting a more lenient approach towards sexuality could be the reason for rising divorce rates. peace
I know. But...I didn't suggest that such a method should be upheld. I was just preoccupied with the idea thinking whether there is a causal link.
I fully agree with you that casual, meaningless sex is not a good thing at all. But you seem to be equating sex without a marriage certificate with promiscuity, loveless sex, sleeping around etc., and I strongly disagree with that. People can have a serious relationship full of love and commitment without a piece of paper stating that they are married. And people can be married but have a loveless sex life, cheat on each other and so on.
Where did i say that? I am trying argue that in a serious relationship, sex is morally and logically ok peace
Speaking of cheating ... this is slightly OT, but since the issue of AIDS and STDs has been brought up in this context, I'd like to point out that the assumption "sex wihtout marriage = spread of STDs" is wrong. Fact is, that in many countries, married women are at a very high risk of being infected with HIV through their husbands. So I believe we should leave this argument aside when talking about sex before marriage.
I also agree. The only arguments i think stand are the arguments in terms of law and children. By law i mean the protection obtained from the law.
I understand what you are saying, but in order to find out, the best way would be to actually talk to people who have first hand experience with that, rather than relying on your personal assumptions. I know people who had casual sex in the past but live in monogamous, happy relationships now. Personally, I believe the ability to love someone and be faithful to him / her is a question of maturity and integrity, and people can evolve and change during their lifetime. So I wouldn't necessarily say that having sex before marriage "damages" a person's capability for love and commitment.
I have but the outcome of the discussions i have had with such people also lead me to an approach of being careful with sex. As in waiting untill i am in a very serious relationship or marriage.
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Marriage doesn't necessarly protect one from disease and other harms, as adultery is common throughout the world. Even if one party remains faithful, they can still can get disease from their spouse.
However, sex is intended be between two trusting individuals. This is why it's so easy to catch/spread disease when you have sex with random people. I believe our creator specifically wrote the program in this fashion. Without trust--the foundation--you have nothing.I agree. This is also to a large extent my line of thought.
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Peace everyone,
159 We descended the reminder and we are protectors of it.
The ink and paper that the great reading (al-quran al-adhim) is printed on is not magical, or sacred, or holy. It doesn't save or guide anyone. Obviously it is the reminder that matters. The same principle is applied to a contract (mithaq) of marriage; although the paper it is printed on is irrelevant, it provides the kind of righteous framework needed to have a lasting, loving commitment.
First, let it be known that there is a very strong and very serious knot being tied through a marriage contract.
2235 Do not tie the knot of marriage (uqdah al-nikah) until...
421 They (the women) have taken from you (men) a very strong/serious contract.The contract is described as "ghalidh" (very strong; very serious), the same word used by the god to describe the contract that ALL the prophets made with the god in 337 and 381 - to deliver their messages to humankind and recognize Gabriel (gibril) when he came to all of them (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10190.0). So it's a big deal.
Two elements needed to keep the contractual knot tied tightly are (1) love (mawaddah) and (2) kindness (rahmah). You need both, working simultatenously, to make a marriage work.
3021 Of his signs is that he created for you from yourselves spouses, so that you may have comfort with them. And he made between you love and kindness.
People get divorced because they can't maintain (1) love and (2) kindness in their marriage.
Peace,
-David
Peace David
We are in agreement to the seriousness of a marriage oath. However what we are in disagreement is whether sex should be exclusive to marriage.
Marriage is a life long commitment. No one should pop the question before being sure. I consider sex as part of the progression of a relationship towards marriage and not as something that becomes unlocked once married. -
God has a response to everything, do you think that in the quran that when it is said that we will be punished for exceeding the limits in this world (and the hereafter) that it is in jest?
Consider why we have an AIDS epidemic, why STDs exist, the lack of harmony in societies where there are broken family structures. A child is a combination of the mother and father with some differences, it is only through knowing the mother and father that a child can really know itself properly and its position in the global landscape.
Yes but AIDS and STDs and unwanted pregnancies come from either failure to use contraception or the conraception failing. You could have an unwanted pregnancy within a marriage or and STD within a marriage if either contraception fails or you fail to use it. What is the difference? bear in mind that this is not to argue for casual sex but to argue against sex being exclusive to marriages.
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can someone provide cliff notes to this long thread.
is the OP saying that pre-marital sex is allowed in the Quran or is not prohibited?
I think the OP was saying that pre-marital sex must be allowed in some form according to the quran. And I agreed with the OP and provided points towards the thought of ma malakat aymanukum was that which is the other form of sex outside the contract of "nikah". In nikah you can only do so with monotheist women. With your ma malakat aymanukum, any women of any religion or legal state (apart from women on the outside men on the inside ).
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thanks
his understanding of "ma malakat aymanukum" is completely incorrect then. he should read EDIP YUSKEL's translation and accompanying notes on that verse from Surah Nisa. it clearly does not allow pre-marital sex in any shape or form. if this was the case, why would we men would get married or look forward to it at all? the joy and pleasure of having multiple sex partners without any form of committment sounds so damn sweet isnt it?
i think some sects use this verse to do temporary marriages too.
either way...its an absolutely retarded notion in my opinion. Goes against everything that quran talks about regarding the foundation of a family.
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thanks
his understanding of "ma malakat aymanukum" is completely incorrect then. he should read EDIP YUSKEL's translation and accompanying notes on that verse from Surah Nisa. it clearly does not allow pre-marital sex in any shape or form. if this was the case, why would we men would get married or look forward to it at all? the joy and pleasure of having multiple sex partners without any form of committment sounds so damn sweet isnt it?
i think some sects use this verse to do temporary marriages too.
either way...its an absolutely retarded notion in my opinion. Goes against everything that quran talks about regarding the foundation of a family.
That's my understanding of it. Not pre- but outside marriage.
I understand that there are two contracts. Nikah and ma malakat aymanukum. Families are created in both forms. Imagine you live in a place where there are no muslim women, what are you to do? Sin? No... allah provides an easier option because of quran 314.
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That's my understanding of it. Not pre- but outside marriage.
I understand that there are two contracts. Nikah and ma malakat aymanukum. Families are created in both forms. Imagine you live in a place where there are no muslim women, what are you to do? Sin? No... allah provides an easier option because of quran 314.
the contract of nikah is the same but the category of women may differ. please understand this very carefully. the verse does not categorize "forms" of marriage but rather "women" that a man may marry. dont forget this verse is a part of surah nissa (women) so any interpretation has to be in light of rights of women or else...there was no need for a chapter specifically dedicated towards them.
whatever translation or interpretation one may come up with for "mamalakat aymanukum", the standard marriage contact, fullfillment of rights and responsibilities apply 100%.
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the contract of nikah is the same but the category of women may differ. please understand this very carefully. the verse does not categorize "forms" of marriage but rather "women" that a man may marry. dont forget this verse is a part of surah nissa (women) so any interpretation has to be in light of rights of women or else...there was no need for a chapter specifically dedicated towards them.
whatever translation or interpretation one may come up with for "mamalakat aymanukum", the standard marriage contact, fullfillment of rights and responsibilities apply 100%.
Quran 2433... the contract negation is available there... so there would already be a contract as according to the quran... just like here in the UK, cohabitation would automatically be a verbal contract. http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/24/33/default.htm
The standard marriage contract cannot be applied, as you cannot marry polytheists, atheists... pseudo christians... jinn, non-monotheists where as there's no restriction on ma malakat aymanukum. Apart from safety concerns as according to quran 243 and 2195 and 429 and 1726-27 and 443
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Can't marry jinn...?
Darn it.
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Can't marry jinn...?
Darn it.
It depends on who exactly are jinn and not all are unbelievers?
721-2 Say "It has been revealed to me that a group of jinn listened. They said 'Truly, we have heard a wonderful recitation (Qur'an); 'it guides to the right path, and we have believed therein, and we shall never join anything with our Lord.
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I married some Jinns once (don't ask). I wouldn't recommend it.
Yeah I heard they're really hot... lol ;D
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Can't marry jinn...?
Darn it.
Can't marry a jinn for health reasons... the children would turn out worse than cousin marriages or sister marriages.
Yes, particularly intoxicating they were. Once you go Jinn, you never go back.
Yeah I heard they're really hot... lol ;D
But when they get angry... http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptXuPhStU5A
And when they get old... boy do their bodies turn flatulent.
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Why not? Some of them are quite handsome imho.
Not sure if I'd like to have blue-skinned kids though ...
http//www.werner-dz.de/images/animationen/dschinn.gif
He meant he had a sexual dream...
though they might be handsome... they're going to be very naughty (harsh) to you http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incubus
Here's one of them
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/John_Henry_Fuseli_-The_Nightmare.JPG/741px-John_Henry_Fuseli-_The_Nightmare.JPG
You still want to eh?
rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl
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Where did i say that? I am trying argue that in a serious relationship, sex is morally and logically ok peace
Oh sorry, I misunderstood you then. So we're basically in agreement. peace
The only arguments i think stand are the arguments in terms of law and children. By law i mean the protection obtained from the law.
In my country, and many others, a person who fathers a child is legally obliged to pay for its maintenance, regardless of whether he is married to the mother or not. Imo that's the way it should be. I doubt though that laws like that will be implemented in any Islamic country any time soon since supposedly this will give rise to promiscous behaviour etc. But in fact what is happening is that women are being punished or forced into abortion, while males are free to have sex with whoever they please regardless of the consequences. Is that fair? I think not.