Non-muslims in Jannah?

you_gunna_eat_that

Peace

Just so you know, I do not agree with some stuff Savage Carrot says so do not consider him my "tag team partner" as he so eloquently put it.

Never claimed it did. It establishes the principle that Allah rewards people in this world as well as the hereafter and therefore refutes your above statement Further it says Allah will still reward them there deeds. If this is the case, then clearly they may avoid hell even though they do not believe since this is the ONLY way a person's positive deeds could be rewarded.

In the verse about the desert Arabs Allah talks about belief having not YET entered into their hearts. So he is obviously allowing time for this to happen. In the meantime they may receive worldly rewards like a share of the booty taken from those with whom the Muslims are at war if they participate in campaigns. If the desert Arabs nevertheless persist in disbelief to the end of their days then there is absolutely no Qur'anic justification for your contention that they could go anywhere but hell.

I hate to get all 4th gradish but I never claimed that you claimed that the verse only specifies rewards on Earth. The point I was trying to make by saying this is that the verse does not specify that the deeds will only be rewarded in our worldly lives. Thus, I am within my rights to assume that the verse includes deeds rewarded in the afterlife, assuming this view is consistent with the rest of the Quran, which I believe it is.

Concerning your interpretation, I retain my contention of consistency. If nonbelief (not disbelief), is so bad that in your opinion it warrants eternal punishment regardless of good deeds, it would be amazingly inconsistent to say nonbelievers can still be rewarded for there deeds on earth. In fact earlier in the debate, you brought me a verse and your interpretation of it was that God will not reward disbelievers good deeds at any time.
18103-106
Say "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works? They are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter) VAIN will be their WORKS, NOR SHALL WE, ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT, GIVE THEM ANY WEIGHT. That is their reward, HELL, because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest.
As in the case of those before you they were mightier than you in power, and more flourishing in wealth and children. They had their enjoyment of their portion and ye have of yours, as did those before you; and ye indulge in idle talk as they did. They! - their work are fruitless in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will lose (all spiritual good). S. 969 Yusuf Ali

My interpretation of these verses were different but that's not important. What's important is that now you are telling me these nomads will be rewarded of there deeds on earth even though you think they are disbelievers. Yet you told me earlier that disbelievers will not be rewarded at all any where. You have to drop one of your interpretations.

YGEA, has been arguing that verse 4914 establishes a principle that people who do not believe in the prophethood of Muhammad and divine origin of Qur'an can nevertheless avoid hell if they "submit". Do you agree with this?

What do you mean by "lack of adequate development"?

Why otherwise would Allah bother to send messengers "as a mercy" to bring people back to belief in him alone? Why do that if he is willing to allow countless people who commit shirk and all sorts of sins in ignorance into the garden?

YGEA brought up the irrelevent subject of babies in order to bolster his "interpretation" of verse 4914 by leading me to concede "well if innocent babies who have never believed can avoid hell so can other people like the desert Arabs mentioned in verse 4914". It is obvious what he is up to. Even if newborn babies who have never believed DID avoid hell, it does not logically follow that adults who have committed all sorts of sins in the sight of Allah will do so. He brought up the subject of babies so I expanded on it by asking what I did with the intention of neutralizing his line of argument.

I would just like to clarify again, there are plenty of other verses that say that those who believe in God, the last Day, and do Good will go to heaven. This grouping can potentially include those who deny the prophethood and the Quran since they can still believe in God and the last day and do good. You have retorted with Quranic verses that say stuff like those who follow the signs, etc will go to heaven. I have responded that none of these verses are limiting. They do not say these are the only people that will go to heaven. I didn't need the nomad verse to argue Quranically that those who do not believe in the prophethood and the quran can still go to heaven.

On the other hand, I think the nomad verse gives us a new grouping in the world. A category of people outside of both the believers and the kafirs.
That was the purpose of the baby question. I wanted to show you the futility of just splitting the world into two groups (kafirs and believers). You have disregarded this by saying babies, the mentally handicapped, and those who have not received the message will go to hell. This is just abominable to the senses and I don't need an argument to know that you are wrong here.

But the important part of this is it seems to be the source of much of your confusion. You have been assuming this whole debate that I am arguing that kafirs will get into heaven, since anyone who does not believe is a kafir in your eyes. Yet, this criteria turns out to be fallacious when you see that there are many who don't believe because they have not heard the message or are babies, etc. Does this make them disbelievers? No...

On the otherhand, I have argued that disbelief is a matter of action and heart. It is not just cheap words. Again, the nomads do not magically become believers when they say "We believe" and logically, this should be the same if they say "We disbelieve." Thus, disbelief has to be something more than just saying something or not believing. So, just because I say the Muslims in the specified verse are not believers, that does not mean I think they are kafirs and that I am arguing that they should go to heaven as such. Instead, I think that they have not disbelieved through mind and might nor have they believed through mind and might. Yet, they may submit to Allah's laws and still be protected in my opinion.

Peace

DH

Look, I'm not YGET all right...? Stop asking me if I believe in what YGET believes in constantly, I'm not his tag team partner, thank you. I haven't read all posts by most members here anyways, if you're okay discussing what I brought up based on what posts I read, that's fine. All mumins would be muslims but not all muslims are mumin http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13499.105

What is your problem with answering a simple question? It has taken you far more effort to write the above and locate the link you posted than to answer my simple question with a short affirmative or negative. Once again Do you agree with YGET that verse 4914 establishes a general principle that "submitters" can avoid hell even if they die in a state of kufr? Yes or No. I will deal with your other posts when you have answered this.

savage_carrot

And it has taken you far less effort to keep asking the same questions repeatedly than to read the links/posts and reason. I don't know what YGET believes in regarding that verse, what you say he believes in is irrelevant to me, neither am I interested in disproving or proving what you say he believes in. What are "Muslims" in the quran? That is what we should be interested in, in order to avoid baseless arguments like the ones going on in this thread.

you_gunna_eat_that

Peace,
I too believe that kufr and submission are mutually exclusive so your question to savage carrot is useless. You and I just disagree on what counts as kufr or submission.
Please read my last post and ask me questions before you make another incorrect assumption about what I am arguing.

Salaam

DH

Peace,I too believe that kufr and submission are mutually exclusive so your question to savage carrot is useless....Please read my last post and ask me questions before you make another incorrect assumption about what I am arguing.

Let us try again. Your above statement

Also, do these submitters who are not believers end up in hell? No way.

Is it your contention that these "submitter" desert Arabs who do not YET believe in the prophet and revelation they have become aware of might still avoid hell even if they end up dying in a state of non-belief? A simple YES or NO will suffice.

You and I just disagree on what counts as kufr or submission.

There are numerous examples of what constitutes "kufr" in the Qur'an. Being guilty of ANY ONE of these qualifies someone as a hell-bound "Kafir" in the sight of Allah. Do you deny this?

DH

As a reminder and a mercy. Doesn't mean it is not possible to "know god" without such reminders for some and for others it is a mercy for those that need reminding. Once again, "belief in god" is not a limited exclusive product for messengers/prophets to sell. There is no full/partial here. You either submit or you don't.

Let us suppose, on one of YGET's hypothetical islands, there exists in today's world a hitherto undiscovered society of atheists. They have been atheists for as far back as they can remember. They do not worship idols because they do not believe in gods, which disbelief is inculcated into them as soon as they can understand speech. So effective is this education that the possibility of the existence of a god NEVER arises in them throughout their lives. They have never heard of Muhammad, the Qur'an, bible, Jesus, Moses, Abraham or Adam. However, the following laws are on their statute book

Citizens

shall honor their parents.

not kill their unborn children from fear of poverty

shall not commit gross indecencies, publicly or privately.

shall not kill - except in the course of justice.

You shall not touch orphans' money, except for demonstrably valid reasons, until they reach maturity.

shall give full weight and full measure when they trade, equitably.

shall be absolutely just when they bear witness, even against their relatives.

Will these atheists who in many ways live an "Islamic" lifestyle go to paradise or hell?

You implied in your previous posts that babies are disbelievers and that is why God punishes them with suffering and death.

What other explanation can you provide as to why Allah might inflict terrible suffering on apparently innocent babies?

I asked you does suffering and death mean someone is a disbeliever?

Well everybody is going to die, according to the Qur'an. However, Allah DOES say he will inflict a "painful" worldly punishment on disbelievers. So, logically, we cannot rule out the possibility that those who live an APPARENTLY exemplary Islamic life are not quite as good as they appear to be and Allah has some reason, that we are unaware of, to regard them as disbelievers - even babies.

You concede later in this post that God can let terrible pain and suffering occur on even his most devoted slaves (believers like job).

Indeed. And BECAUSE of that, it does not seem unreasonable to suppose that he might inflict pain on completely innocent babies, kill them and throw them in hell, just because he feels like it.

Next, if you think God is a sadist you apparently haven't read and understood the quran that tells us in no uncertain terms that God is just and merciful and does not punish the innocent etc. God cannot be a sadist which means inflicting suffering, pain and cruelty for no reason but gratification. End of this line of argument as well.

So why would he inflict pain and suffering on innocent babies?

Where is your sense of logic? God controls life and death. He brings into the world a baby, innocent of any wrong doing because they do not even have the capacity to understand wrong or right, makes them suffer terribly and kills them. And we are supposed to believe these are "kafir" babies, which are going to suffer pain and suffering in hell as well even though they didn't stand a chance for believing or unbelieving because they couldn't as they didn't even have the capacity to!

So why do you think god makes babies suffer and takes them from the world before they have a chance to believe or disbelieve?

unknownuser

Will these atheists who in many ways live an "Islamic" lifestyle go to paradise or hell?

And where do your hypothetical atheists originate from, good sir? Rewind time to the beginning if needed.

I would say they submit to ALLAH in a different name. Instead of saying "God" they say "not God" but the concepts are identical. And thus, they do not need to go to hell. The quranic laws arise DIRECTLY because a day of clarity is going to come to man, and he must be prepared for it. If there was no such day, then quranic law would be irrelevant.

This is the day of total justice. Not a single soul will be wronged and this is also the day when everything will be balanced; This is the day when the Royal Mail of the universe establishes its dominion and every postman is told to follow one order - "RETURN TO SENDER"; all the pain accumulated will be delivered back to its originator, all the good will be returned back to its originator and as Royal Mail has its fuckups, it turns out that the sender of good gets 10 copies of his original letter.

Indeed. And BECAUSE of that, it does not seem unreasonable to suppose that he might inflict pain on completely innocent babies, kill them and throw them in hell, just because he feels like it.

It seems reasonable that innocent beings should not suffer in the end and should get paid back an equal price for any pain experienced. Now within reason, who is more reasonable, you and I or the originator of reason itself?

DH

And where do your hypothetical atheists originate from, good sir? Rewind time to the beginning if needed.

Well if we rewind time far enough, the atheists would - by the logic of the book of Allah - be descended from the first man, Adam. What should be deduced from this?

I would say they submit to ALLAH in a different name. Instead of saying "God" they say "not God" but the concepts are identical.

Eh????!!!!

And thus, they do not need to go to hell.

Well if one accepts your (ahem) questionable premise that Atheism (conscious denial of the existence of a god)=BELIEF in a "NOT god"=BELIEF in Allah then this would seem like a logical conclusion. Unfortunately, the Qur'an provides no support for this bit of semantic jiggery pokery and indeed repeatedly states that those who disbelieve in Allah will go to hell. To whom would you say those words about DISBELIEVERS IN ALLAH going to hell are applicable?

It seems reasonable that innocent beings should not suffer in the end and should get paid back an equal price for any pain experienced.

But why would Allah inflict pain and suffering on innocent people in the first place?

amin

I think a believer is one who has no ego, and they consider everyones God is the same ONE and believes they can only be guided by HIM right at this time.

Polytheists are one who think their God is different from others. they dont accept everyones God to be same and are more egoist about their beliefs, so some muslims also would come under this sect. they cant accept a person with a simple deviation from their idols , their idols are the rituals that they think will bless them to heaven, they took these rituals from prophet's life through Hadeeths. they think they are guided by their idols not by HIM.

savage_carrot

you're still repeating the old stuff.

Let us suppose, on one of YGET's hypothetical islands, there exists in today's world a hitherto undiscovered society of atheists. They have been atheists for as far back as they can remember. They do not worship idols because they do not believe in gods, which disbelief is inculcated into them as soon as they can understand speech. So effective is this education that the possibility of the existence of a god NEVER arises in them throughout their lives. They have never heard of Muhammad, the Qur'an, bible, Jesus, Moses, Abraham or Adam. However, the following laws are on their statute book

Citizens

shall honor their parents.

not kill their unborn children from fear of poverty

shall not commit gross indecencies, publicly or privately.

shall not kill - except in the course of justice.

You shall not touch orphans' money, except for demonstrably valid reasons, until they reach maturity.

shall give full weight and full measure when they trade, equitably.

shall be absolutely just when they bear witness, even against their relatives.

Will these atheists who in many ways live an "Islamic" lifestyle go to paradise or hell?
Your posts are like ghost trains running on a random schedule...and one can't help but wonder which surprise station is going to turn up next or the same station over and over again. Read very carefully and then reason For the possibility of rejection, first one has to be mentally capable and then second, have access to the information they are supposed to be rejecting. That is what the very meaning of a rejecter is! God's signs are all around us and inside us (as in the example of abraham). Your "hypothetical" situation has no basis in the reality presented in the quran once again, sorry.

What other explanation can you provide as to why Allah might inflict terrible suffering on apparently innocent babies?
Well everybody is going to die, according to the Qur'an. However, Allah DOES say he will inflict a "painful" worldly punishment on disbelievers. So, logically, we cannot rule out the possibility that those who live an APPARENTLY exemplary Islamic life are not quite as good as they appear to be and Allah has some reason, that we are unaware of, to regard them as disbelievers - even babies.
Indeed. And BECAUSE of that, it does not seem unreasonable to suppose that he might inflict pain on completely innocent babies, kill them and throw them in hell, just because he feels like it.
So why would he inflict pain and suffering on innocent babies?
So why do you think god makes babies suffer and takes them from the world before they have a chance to believe or disbelieve?
Re-read the posts and reason. You concede that anyone can suffer terrible suffering, believers or unbelievers hence terrible suffering CANNOT be used to determine one's believing or unbelieving status. How will you differentiate terrible suffering because it is a test from terrible suffering because it's a punishment? There is no possible way for you to gauge or know that unless you're God and you and I know you're not, so give it a rest. This reminds me of people saying ALL the people killed in natural disasters were disbelievers and had it coming. Utter rubbish and dangerous to boot.

Your scenario of innocents suffering in hell CANNOT happen. Why babies come into this world and die before they have a chance to believe or disbelieve, one can have a million explanations but this "inference/explanation" of yours contradicts the quran hence is disproved.

DH

You concede that anyone can suffer terrible suffering, believers or unbelievers

I do.

hence terrible suffering CANNOT be used to determine one's believing or unbelieving status.

However, the possibility must always be borne in mind - however "good" a person may appear on the surface.

How will you differentiate terrible suffering because it is a test from terrible suffering because it's a punishment?

I don't think you have explicitly raised "terrible suffering as test" before. The story of Job is generally understood to be an example of this.

There is no possible way for you to gauge or know that unless you're God and you and I know you're not, so give it a rest. This reminds me of people saying ALL the people killed in natural disasters were disbelievers and had it coming. Utter rubbish and dangerous to boot.

And, thanks to you, we now have two reasons why Allah might inflict natural disasters like he inflicted on the folk of Ad and Thamud

The afflicted are kafirs
Allah is testing the believers by being cruel to them like he tested Job

Any other Qur'anically supportable reasons why Allah might inflict natural disasters like earthquakes on people? Just one more will do - with corroborative chapter and verse from the Qur'an of course.

Your scenario of innocents suffering in hell CANNOT happen. Why babies come into this world and die before they have a chance to believe or disbelieve, one can have a million explanations

Provide just one

but this "inference/explanation" of yours contradicts the quran hence is disproved.

Please remind me again of where it contradicts the Qur'an.

Your "hypothetical" situation has no basis in the reality presented in the quran once again, sorry.

Are you implying (either or both) that there could not conceivably arise

a society of atheists
a society of atheists who somehow manage to spontaneously develop a society ruled by the above "Islam-like" laws independently of any exposure to divine messengers like Isa or Muhammad

????

savage_carrot

However, the possibility must always be borne in mind - however "good" a person may appear on the surface.
if the possibility is a possibility, not if it is an impossibility.

I don't think you have explicitly raised "terrible suffering as test" before. The story of Job is generally understood to be an example of this.

I asked you does suffering and death mean someone is a disbeliever? You concede later in this post that God can let terrible pain and suffering occur on even his most devoted slaves (believers like job). Thus suffering, pain and death cannot be used to "determine" someones believing or disbelieving status. End of.
Maybe I should start writing Explicit Statement Ahoy --> .... since apparently reasoning takes effort.

And, thanks to you, we now have two reasons why Allah might inflict natural disasters like he inflicted on the folk of Ad and Thamud

The afflicted are kafirs
Allah is testing the believers by being cruel to them like he tested Job
Any other Qur'anically supportable reasons why Allah might inflict natural disasters like earthquakes on people? Just one more will do - with corroborative chapter and verse from the Qur'an of course
Once again, say anything even if it contradicts the quran, and don't use reasoning because it takes effort. If Allah was cruel, he wouldn't be described as the most merciful/compassionate and just. There can be only one, so choose Is Allah cruel or is he the most merciful/compassionate and just? There is only one answer to this that doesn't contradict the quran.

Provide just one
It is irrelevant to the topic.

Please remind me again of where it contradicts the Qur'an.

Next, if you think God is a sadist you apparently haven't read and understood the quran that tells us in no uncertain terms that God is just and merciful and does not punish the innocent etc.

He brings into the world a baby, innocent of any wrong doing because they do not even have the capacity to understand wrong or right, makes them suffer terribly and kills them. And we are supposed to believe these are "kafir" babies, which are going to suffer pain and suffering in hell as well even though they didn't stand a chance for believing or unbelieving because they couldn't as they didn't even have the capacity to! If this is your idea of "maybe God might do this" it's way off base.

Your scenario of innocents suffering in hell CANNOT happen.

Are you implying (either or both) that there could not conceivably arise

a society of atheists
a society of atheists who somehow manage to spontaneously develop a society ruled by the above "Islam-like" laws independently of any exposure to divine messengers like Isa or Muhammad

For the possibility of rejection, first one has to be mentally capable and then second, have access to the information they are supposed to be rejecting. That is what the very meaning of a rejecter is! God's signs are all around us and inside us (as in the example of abraham).

DH

However, the possibility must always be borne in mind - however "good" a person may appear on the surface.

if the possibility is a possibility, not if it is an impossibility.

And it is clearly NOT an impossibility that someone may appear, to all intents and purposes, to be an exemplary Muslim but has done, said or even thought something that has led Allah to categorize them as a hell-deserving kafir.

I don't think you have explicitly raised "terrible suffering as test" before. The story of Job is generally understood to be an example of this.

I asked you does suffering and death mean someone is a disbeliever? You concede later in this post that God can let terrible pain and suffering occur on even his most devoted slaves (believers like job). Thus suffering, pain and death cannot be used to "determine" someones believing or disbelieving status. End of.
Maybe I should start writing Explicit Statement Ahoy --> .... since apparently reasoning takes effort. Maybe I should start writing Explicit Statement Ahoy --> .... since apparently reasoning takes effort.

I was merely agreeing with you that the story of Job can be taken as an example of suffering as test of faith - even though the Qur'an does not go into the matter in the detail of the bible.

Provide just one

It is irrelevant to the topic.

You can't think of one single explanation can you?

Please remind me again of where it contradicts the Qur'an.

Next, if you think God is a sadist you apparently haven't read and understood the quran that tells us in no uncertain terms that God is just and merciful and does not punish the innocent etc....He brings into the world a baby, innocent of any wrong doing because they do not even have the capacity to understand wrong or right, makes them suffer terribly and kills them. And we are supposed to believe these are "kafir" babies, which are going to suffer pain and suffering in hell as well even though they didn't stand a chance for believing or unbelieving because they couldn't as they didn't even have the capacity to! If this is your idea of "maybe God might do this" it's way off base. Your scenario of innocents suffering in hell CANNOT happen.

You appear to be superimposing your own wayward ideas of what a "just" "merciful" god is on Allah. Allah, according to the Qur'an, has bestowed faculties of reasoning on mankind yet threatens to burn them in hell if their use of these faculties leads them NOT to unquestioningly believe in him and his messenger. There are numerous examples of the Qur'an detailing objections that the disbelievers made to accepting the book of Allah as the divine word - objections which seem perfectly reasonable to one part of my mind. Yet Allah threatens to punish them in this world and the hereafter for using the reasoning faculties HE GAVE THEM in this manner. It must be concluded then, that whatever Allah says or does is "just" and "merciful" simply because Allah says or does them. It would then be clear that his killing babies and burning them in hell would be "just" and "merciful" for that reason alone.

Are you implying (either or both) that there could not conceivably arise

a society of atheists
a society of atheists who somehow manage to spontaneously develop a society ruled by the above "Islam-like" laws independently of any exposure to divine messengers like Isa or Muhammad

For the possibility of rejection, first one has to be mentally capable and then second, have access to the information they are supposed to be rejecting. That is what the very meaning of a rejecter is! God's signs are all around us and inside us (as in the example of abraham).

And my postulated isolated society of atheists ARE mentally capable. They have pondered "God's signs all around them" and have come to the conclusion that they do not signify the existence of an omniscient deity responsible for the existence and ordering of the universe. So I ask again, will they or will they not go to hell for their denial of the existence of Allah?

you_gunna_eat_that