Non-muslims in Jannah?

DH

You concede that anyone can suffer terrible suffering, believers or unbelievers

I do.

hence terrible suffering CANNOT be used to determine one's believing or unbelieving status.

However, the possibility must always be borne in mind - however "good" a person may appear on the surface.

How will you differentiate terrible suffering because it is a test from terrible suffering because it's a punishment?

I don't think you have explicitly raised "terrible suffering as test" before. The story of Job is generally understood to be an example of this.

There is no possible way for you to gauge or know that unless you're God and you and I know you're not, so give it a rest. This reminds me of people saying ALL the people killed in natural disasters were disbelievers and had it coming. Utter rubbish and dangerous to boot.

And, thanks to you, we now have two reasons why Allah might inflict natural disasters like he inflicted on the folk of Ad and Thamud

The afflicted are kafirs
Allah is testing the believers by being cruel to them like he tested Job

Any other Qur'anically supportable reasons why Allah might inflict natural disasters like earthquakes on people? Just one more will do - with corroborative chapter and verse from the Qur'an of course.

Your scenario of innocents suffering in hell CANNOT happen. Why babies come into this world and die before they have a chance to believe or disbelieve, one can have a million explanations

Provide just one

but this "inference/explanation" of yours contradicts the quran hence is disproved.

Please remind me again of where it contradicts the Qur'an.

Your "hypothetical" situation has no basis in the reality presented in the quran once again, sorry.

Are you implying (either or both) that there could not conceivably arise

a society of atheists
a society of atheists who somehow manage to spontaneously develop a society ruled by the above "Islam-like" laws independently of any exposure to divine messengers like Isa or Muhammad

????

savage_carrot

However, the possibility must always be borne in mind - however "good" a person may appear on the surface.
if the possibility is a possibility, not if it is an impossibility.

I don't think you have explicitly raised "terrible suffering as test" before. The story of Job is generally understood to be an example of this.

I asked you does suffering and death mean someone is a disbeliever? You concede later in this post that God can let terrible pain and suffering occur on even his most devoted slaves (believers like job). Thus suffering, pain and death cannot be used to "determine" someones believing or disbelieving status. End of.
Maybe I should start writing Explicit Statement Ahoy --> .... since apparently reasoning takes effort.

And, thanks to you, we now have two reasons why Allah might inflict natural disasters like he inflicted on the folk of Ad and Thamud

The afflicted are kafirs
Allah is testing the believers by being cruel to them like he tested Job
Any other Qur'anically supportable reasons why Allah might inflict natural disasters like earthquakes on people? Just one more will do - with corroborative chapter and verse from the Qur'an of course
Once again, say anything even if it contradicts the quran, and don't use reasoning because it takes effort. If Allah was cruel, he wouldn't be described as the most merciful/compassionate and just. There can be only one, so choose Is Allah cruel or is he the most merciful/compassionate and just? There is only one answer to this that doesn't contradict the quran.

Provide just one
It is irrelevant to the topic.

Please remind me again of where it contradicts the Qur'an.

Next, if you think God is a sadist you apparently haven't read and understood the quran that tells us in no uncertain terms that God is just and merciful and does not punish the innocent etc.

He brings into the world a baby, innocent of any wrong doing because they do not even have the capacity to understand wrong or right, makes them suffer terribly and kills them. And we are supposed to believe these are "kafir" babies, which are going to suffer pain and suffering in hell as well even though they didn't stand a chance for believing or unbelieving because they couldn't as they didn't even have the capacity to! If this is your idea of "maybe God might do this" it's way off base.

Your scenario of innocents suffering in hell CANNOT happen.

Are you implying (either or both) that there could not conceivably arise

a society of atheists
a society of atheists who somehow manage to spontaneously develop a society ruled by the above "Islam-like" laws independently of any exposure to divine messengers like Isa or Muhammad

For the possibility of rejection, first one has to be mentally capable and then second, have access to the information they are supposed to be rejecting. That is what the very meaning of a rejecter is! God's signs are all around us and inside us (as in the example of abraham).

DH

However, the possibility must always be borne in mind - however "good" a person may appear on the surface.

if the possibility is a possibility, not if it is an impossibility.

And it is clearly NOT an impossibility that someone may appear, to all intents and purposes, to be an exemplary Muslim but has done, said or even thought something that has led Allah to categorize them as a hell-deserving kafir.

I don't think you have explicitly raised "terrible suffering as test" before. The story of Job is generally understood to be an example of this.

I asked you does suffering and death mean someone is a disbeliever? You concede later in this post that God can let terrible pain and suffering occur on even his most devoted slaves (believers like job). Thus suffering, pain and death cannot be used to "determine" someones believing or disbelieving status. End of.
Maybe I should start writing Explicit Statement Ahoy --> .... since apparently reasoning takes effort. Maybe I should start writing Explicit Statement Ahoy --> .... since apparently reasoning takes effort.

I was merely agreeing with you that the story of Job can be taken as an example of suffering as test of faith - even though the Qur'an does not go into the matter in the detail of the bible.

Provide just one

It is irrelevant to the topic.

You can't think of one single explanation can you?

Please remind me again of where it contradicts the Qur'an.

Next, if you think God is a sadist you apparently haven't read and understood the quran that tells us in no uncertain terms that God is just and merciful and does not punish the innocent etc....He brings into the world a baby, innocent of any wrong doing because they do not even have the capacity to understand wrong or right, makes them suffer terribly and kills them. And we are supposed to believe these are "kafir" babies, which are going to suffer pain and suffering in hell as well even though they didn't stand a chance for believing or unbelieving because they couldn't as they didn't even have the capacity to! If this is your idea of "maybe God might do this" it's way off base. Your scenario of innocents suffering in hell CANNOT happen.

You appear to be superimposing your own wayward ideas of what a "just" "merciful" god is on Allah. Allah, according to the Qur'an, has bestowed faculties of reasoning on mankind yet threatens to burn them in hell if their use of these faculties leads them NOT to unquestioningly believe in him and his messenger. There are numerous examples of the Qur'an detailing objections that the disbelievers made to accepting the book of Allah as the divine word - objections which seem perfectly reasonable to one part of my mind. Yet Allah threatens to punish them in this world and the hereafter for using the reasoning faculties HE GAVE THEM in this manner. It must be concluded then, that whatever Allah says or does is "just" and "merciful" simply because Allah says or does them. It would then be clear that his killing babies and burning them in hell would be "just" and "merciful" for that reason alone.

Are you implying (either or both) that there could not conceivably arise

a society of atheists
a society of atheists who somehow manage to spontaneously develop a society ruled by the above "Islam-like" laws independently of any exposure to divine messengers like Isa or Muhammad

For the possibility of rejection, first one has to be mentally capable and then second, have access to the information they are supposed to be rejecting. That is what the very meaning of a rejecter is! God's signs are all around us and inside us (as in the example of abraham).

And my postulated isolated society of atheists ARE mentally capable. They have pondered "God's signs all around them" and have come to the conclusion that they do not signify the existence of an omniscient deity responsible for the existence and ordering of the universe. So I ask again, will they or will they not go to hell for their denial of the existence of Allah?

you_gunna_eat_that

Let us suppose, on one of YGET's hypothetical islands, there exists in today's world a hitherto undiscovered society of atheists. They have been atheists for as far back as they can remember. They do not worship idols because they do not believe in gods, which disbelief is inculcated into them as soon as they can understand speech. So effective is this education that the possibility of the existence of a god NEVER arises in them throughout their lives. They have never heard of Muhammad, the Qur'an, bible, Jesus, Moses, Abraham or Adam. However, the following laws are on their statute book

Citizens

shall honor their parents.

not kill their unborn children from fear of poverty

shall not commit gross indecencies, publicly or privately.

shall not kill - except in the course of justice.

You shall not touch orphans' money, except for demonstrably valid reasons, until they reach maturity.

shall give full weight and full measure when they trade, equitably.

shall be absolutely just when they bear witness, even against their relatives.

Will these atheists who in many ways live an "Islamic" lifestyle go to paradise or hell?

What other explanation can you provide as to why Allah might inflict terrible suffering on apparently innocent babies?

Well everybody is going to die, according to the Qur'an. However, Allah DOES say he will inflict a "painful" worldly punishment on disbelievers. So, logically, we cannot rule out the possibility that those who live an APPARENTLY exemplary Islamic life are not quite as good as they appear to be and Allah has some reason, that we are unaware of, to regard them as disbelievers - even babies.

Indeed. And BECAUSE of that, it does not seem unreasonable to suppose that he might inflict pain on completely innocent babies, kill them and throw them in hell, just because he feels like it.

So why would he inflict pain and suffering on innocent babies?

So why do you think god makes babies suffer and takes them from the world before they have a chance to believe or disbelieve?

Peace,

That is what I have been arguing. You know what I think. I know what you think.
Cheers

unknownuser

Peace,

And my postulated isolated society of atheists ARE mentally capable. They have pondered "God's signs all around them" and have come to the conclusion that they do not signify the existence of an omniscient deity responsible for the existence and ordering of the universe. So I ask again, will they or will they not go to hell for their denial of the existence of Allah?

Illogical non-existent entity (according to them) to send to a non-existent place.

All will be shown clear proofs, evidences, signs, etc., else no witness to convict.

savage_carrot

And it is clearly NOT an impossibility that someone may appear, to all intents and purposes, to be an exemplary Muslim but has done, said or even thought something that has led Allah to categorize them as a hell-deserving kafir.

if the possibility is a possibility, not if it is an impossibility.

Not if it is an impossibility = no babies will end up in hell. You still haven't understood what a muslim is, let alone anything further yet keep adding more on top of a faulty concept that serves no purpose but to confuse you further.

I was merely agreeing with you that the story of Job can be taken as an example of suffering as test of faith - even though the Qur'an does not go into the matter in the detail of the bible.
who cares what the bible says, and why state your "mere agreement" when it doesn't even lead to any reasoning on your part.

You can't think of one single explanation can you?

It is irrelevant to the topic.

You appear to be superimposing your own wayward ideas of what a "just" "merciful" god is on Allah. Allah, according to the Qur'an, has bestowed faculties of reasoning on mankind yet threatens to burn them in hell if their use of these faculties leads them NOT to unquestioningly believe in him and his messenger. There are numerous examples of the Qur'an detailing objections that the disbelievers made to accepting the book of Allah as the divine word - objections which seem perfectly reasonable to one part of my mind. Yet Allah threatens to punish them in this world and the hereafter for using the reasoning faculties HE GAVE THEM in this manner. It must be concluded then, that whatever Allah says or does is "just" and "merciful" simply because Allah says or does them. It would then be clear that his killing babies and burning them in hell would be "just" and "merciful" for that reason alone.
Project much? When Allah says they "will not be wronged in the least" that according to you means putting babies in hell. When Allah says he is most merciful/compassionate it means people innocent of wrongdoing will end up in hell. This is your reasoning! God with a system of laws in place who takes everything into account cannot judge people on whims or arbitrary justice. Everyone will get what they deserve according to what they have done throughout their lives. That is perfect justice which you don't seem to get.

1849 And the record will be laid open; and thou wilt behold the guilty filled with dread at what therein; and they will exclaim "Oh, woe unto us! What a record is this! It leaves out nothing, be it small or great, but takes everything into account!" For they will find all that they ever wrought facing them, and thy Sustainer does not wrong anyone.
586 on the Day when God will raise them all from the dead and will make them truly understand all that they did God will have taken it into account, even though they may have forgotten it - for God is wit?ness unto everything.

And my postulated isolated society of atheists ARE mentally capable. They have pondered "God's signs all around them" and have come to the conclusion that they do not signify the existence of an omniscient deity responsible for the existence and ordering of the universe. So I ask again, will they or will they not go to hell for their denial of the existence of Allah?
If they have rejected the signs around them and live their lives in rejection (which is a tied together concept if you can get that)will get what they deserve.

Nothing to do with our eternal fate is as woefully simplistic as "Iggy my best friend in Grade 1 said God doesn't exist yesterday, he's so going to hell haha, what a kafir!". This is essentially what you've been doing throughout the thread, taking bits and pieces, failing to see the bigger picture and then building further on a faulty foundation. You need to go and read the quran with patience and understand what it's saying. I understand these might be wasted words on you because all you seem to want to do is argue illogically and insist repeatedly even if something contradicts the concepts present in the quran, not even getting the basics of "If God is just, will he send babies to hell". After everything said that proves your position is illogical and contradictory, you still come up with "killing babies and burning them in hell is just and merciful because God is doing it". I don't expect miracles, in fact I expect another illogical response.

DH

Project much? When Allah says they "will not be wronged in the least" that according to you means putting babies in hell. When Allah says he is most merciful/compassionate it means people innocent of wrongdoing will end up in hell.

Read the Qur'an. Allah says again and again that his mercy is for "the believers", "the believers", "the believers". It logically follows then that if someone is NOT a believer they will NOT be saved.

savage_carrot

As expected.

Is his justice selective as well?

DH

As expected.

Is his justice selective as well? &nbsp

He will, according to the Qur'an, mete out justice in this world and the hereafter. Nobody will, according to the same, be treated unjustly according to ALLAH's sense of justice. The "just" ie THE BELIEVERS will enter the garden of delights. The "unjust" ie everybody else will suffer a painful punishment in this life and the hereafter. If Allah's sense of justice does not correspond with your own then perhaps Islam is not the religion for you.

Look, Savage_Carrot, you have trounced your own argument with your earlier statement

Belief in God is having faith/deducing that God exists (like in the example of Abraham) and one doesn't need a prophet/messenger to sell a product called "belief in God". People can believe in God and do good works without knowing of a messenger/prophet.

If people can indeed deduce the belief in a god without any direct or indirect exposure to a messenger/prophet/warner then ignorance of the messengers and the messages sent down to them can be NO EXCUSE for disbelieving in/lacking belief in a god - which can then only be the result of a failure to accept the conclusion that must necessarily arise from deductive reasoning. In other words disbelievers/non-believers in a god who are ignorant of Muhammad, isa, Musa etc are nevertheless guilty of denying the signs of Allah ie they are Kafirs.

DH

586 on the Day when God will raise them all from the dead and will make them truly understand all that they did God will have taken it into account, even though they may have forgotten it - for God is wit?ness unto everything.If they have rejected the signs around them and live their lives in rejection (which is a tied together concept if you can get that)will get what they deserve.

If you are claiming that people must BOTH

Reject the signs around them

AND

Live lives of kufr

to qualify as "kafirs" in the sight of Allah then you are deluding yourself.

Nothing to do with our eternal fate is as woefully simplistic as "Iggy my best friend in Grade 1 said God doesn't exist yesterday, he's so going to hell haha, what a kafir!".

Whether you like it or not that IS the case according to the book of Allah, if iggy does not repent and live the rest of his life as a good Muslim and a believer in Allah to the very core of his being.

This is essentially what you've been doing throughout the thread, taking bits and pieces, failing to see the bigger picture and then building further on a faulty foundation.

I am afraid this "bigger picture" is Allah as you would like him to be rather than Allah as he is according to the book of Allah - the product of the pallette of your own desires.

savage_carrot

If I too ignored logic, reason and what is actually presented in the quran as a whole, I would agree and band with you in mutual solidarity.

DH

If I too ignored logic, reason and what is actually presented in the quran as a whole, I would agree and band with you in mutual solidarity.

What is actually presented in the Qur'an page after page, surah after surah is that "believers will go to paradise", "kafirs will burn in hell". Sins comitted in ignorance are only forgiven if the sinner repents, believes and mends their ways. There is NO allowance made for people who die in ignorance of Muhammad or other messengers. If we accept your above assertion that people can come to a knowledge of Allah without direct or indirect exposure to the messengers and their messages then ignorance of these can be NO EXCUSE in the sight of Allah for lacking belief in the almighty, shirk and other unIslamic practices. Fault my logic.

savage_carrot

There's a point when repeating the same stuff becomes idiotic.

To anyone reading the thread who's interested/hoping to learn what the quran says about this topic, study the quran making sure that any conclusion reached is through a proper study of the terms involved, keeping all the verses involved with the concepts in mind (cross reference etc) and using logic and reasoning. This thread might help http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600433.0

DH

There's a point when repeating the same stuff becomes idiotic.

So stop idiotically repeating things like "The Qur'an says that Allah is 'just and merciful' therefore Allah wouldn't burn 'innocent' people in hell"

study the quran making sure that any conclusion reached is through a proper study of the terms involved, keeping all the verses involved with the concepts in mind (cross reference etc) and using logic and reasoning.

And let's try just this

Do you accept, Savage Carrot, that Allah has now sent messengers/warners to ALL peoples at some point in their history and there will be NO more messengers/warners sent to mankind? A simple yes or no will suffice

Mazhar

What is actually presented in the Qur'an page after page, surah after surah is that "believers will go to paradise", "kafirs will burn in hell". Sins comitted in ignorance are only forgiven if the sinner repents, believes and mends their ways. There is NO allowance made for people who die in ignorance of Muhammad or other messengers. If we accept your above assertion that people can come to a knowledge of Allah without direct or indirect exposure to the messengers and their messages then ignorance of these can be NO EXCUSE in the sight of Allah for lacking belief in the almighty, shirk and other unIslamic practices. Fault my logic.

This logic seems to have been embeded in mind not because of study of Grand Qur'aan but oft repeated maxim;
"Ignorantia juris non excusat or Ignorantia legis neminem excusat .

But the Supreme Sovereign of the Universes has a flawless system of justice based on absolute mercy. In that system none deserves and is liable to punishment until and unless he is informed and warned and made to know in simple and distinct/vivid words what should he abstain from doing. Allah the Supreme Judge considers the ignorance and unawareness as a strong defense plea for exoneration and takes upon Himself the responsibility to awaken people from their slumber, ignorance, neglectfulness and warn the humanity, and make them explicitly know, what they are required to abstain from so that the accused people could not take the plea in their self defense that they were not aware or were not made to understand the prohibitions. The justice par excellence demands that the Supreme Sovereign/The Authority establishes against an accused, beyond a shadow of doubt, that he committed the crime intentionally and willfully despite knowing and being fully aware of the prohibitions.

Superb System of Justice

DH

Allah the Supreme Judge considers the ignorance and unawareness as a strong defense plea for exoneration....

So provide the relevent Qur'anic passage(s) to support this claim.

and takes upon Himself the responsibility to awaken people from their slumber, ignorance, neglectfulness and warn the humanity, and make them explicitly know, what they are required to abstain from so that the accused people could not take the plea in their self defense that they were not aware or were not made to understand the prohibitions.

So how exactly is Allah HIMSELF going to awaken people from their slumber, ignorance etc? How will HE make them explicitly know what they are to abstain from? Will he send more warners like Muhammad? Will he speak directly to those on the wrong path? Will his mighty voice boom from the heavens informing wrongdoers the world over of the error of their ways and warning them of the dire consequences of persisting with their unIslamic beliefs and practices? How?

Mazhar

Dh,

Plclick the link and read there to find answers to what you said.

DH

Dh,

Plclick the link and read there to find answers to what you said.

I read the link and could not find the answer. Copy and paste the answer for me or, better still, provide one of your own.

Jack

DH,

I guess only Allah really knows that one. The only other reason I can think of is that Allah is some kind of sadist who revels in causing suffering to babies and their parents. Indeed, Allah says Let neither their wealth nor their children please you. Through these Allah seeks to punish them in this life (955)

What does this verse have to do with 'Allah is some kind of a sadist' ? It simply states that 'kafirs' are tormented through what they've gained. This has nothing to do with 'children suffering'.
Tell me this are the children of Israel also being 'punished' by the hands of allah? By your logic, Pharoah was on the right path! Those children suffered, so they had to have been disbelievers! See 249. Pharoah was a messenger from God, and the children of israel denied him, hence the torment! &nbsp

According to the Qur'an mankind was sent a succession of messengers who told them to worship Allah alone. Thus "belief in God" is a product of prophethood. Therefore, according to the logic of the book of Allah, it is NOT possible for someone to believe in ALLAH AND do good works if he or his people have not at some point been informed of the existence of Allah by a prophet. It is of course possible for someone to DISBELIVE in god and do good works like helping the poor. However such people - atheists - will, according to the Qur'an, go to hell for their disbelief in Allah.

Instead of throwing darts at the wall hoping to hit some imaginary target, actually put forward Quranic evidence. Thanks.
No one is punished without first receiving a messenger (1715). Please tell me where in the Quran, atheists are mentioned. Thanks. Are you claiming only 'atheists' can be 'disbelievers'?
It's simple you are reciprocated for your own works (good and bad), without the least injustice (see 2281, 325, 330, etc). BABIES have no works! It is nonsensical to claim they can believers/disbelievers simply based on how they lived/died/'suffered'.

What other explanation can you provide as to why Allah might inflict terrible suffering on apparently innocent babies?

Are you a televangelist?
There are a gazillion different reasons why 'babies suffer' and none of which has to do with God inflicting pain for his own amusement. If our fates are predetermined why is Moses being instructed in this way
"Go, both of you, to Pharaoh, for he has transgressed."
"So say to him soft words, perhaps he will remember or take heed." - 2043-44

It's called Free Will. Babies have no Free Will, they are not psychologically mature enough to make any decision.

DH

DH,
What does this verse have to do with 'Allah is some kind of a sadist' ? It simply states that 'kafirs' are tormented through what they've gained. This has nothing to do with 'children suffering'. Tell me this are the children of Israel also being 'punished' by the hands of allah? By your logic, Pharoah was on the right path! Those children suffered, so they had to have been disbelievers! See 249. Pharoah was a messenger from God, and the children of israel denied him, hence the torment! &nbsp

The verse refers to Allah punishing kafirs THROUGH/WITH THEIR CHILDREN. What do you think that might involve in practice? Simply saying "'kafirs are tormented through what they've gained" does not constitute an answer. Provide some examples of how Allah might use the Kafirs' children to punish them.

No one is punished without first receiving a messenger (1715).

All nations have now received messengers/warners (1636). Therefore ignorance can no longer be a defense.

Please tell me where in the Quran, atheists are mentioned.

Atheists clearly come under the category of those who deny Allah, his messengers and his signs.

Are you claiming only 'atheists' can be 'disbelievers'?

No.

There are a gazillion different reasons why 'babies suffer'

Provide just one.

It's simple you are reciprocated for your own works (good and bad), without the least injustice (see 2281, 325, 330, etc).

Indeed, and if Allah decides to leave a group of atheists or other wrongdoers isolated on an island in pig ignorance of the wrong they are doing to the end of their days and burns them in hell that is Allah's justice. If you are implying above that these atheists might somehow avoid hell through "good works" then you are deluding yourself I am afraid.

BABIES have no works! It is nonsensical to claim they can believers/disbelievers simply based on how they lived/died/'suffered'.

Why otherwise would Allah cause apparently innocent babies to suffer and die?

There are a gazillion different reasons why 'babies suffer'

Provide just one.

and none of which has to do with God inflicting pain for his own amusement.

Why otherwise would a being inflict pain for no apparent reason? If you saw someone pulling the wings of a fly for what reason would you imagine they were doing it?

If our fates are predetermined why is Moses being instructed in this way
"Go, both of you, to Pharaoh, for he has transgressed." "So say to him soft words, perhaps he will remember or take heed." - 2043-

Allah guides whom he will and leads astray whom he will.

Babies have no Free Will, they are not psychologically mature enough to make any decision.

So why does Allah make babies suffer and then kill them before they develop faculties of judgement?