Non-muslims in Jannah?

you_gunna_eat_that

Peace,
I too believe that kufr and submission are mutually exclusive so your question to savage carrot is useless. You and I just disagree on what counts as kufr or submission.
Please read my last post and ask me questions before you make another incorrect assumption about what I am arguing.

Salaam

DH

Peace,I too believe that kufr and submission are mutually exclusive so your question to savage carrot is useless....Please read my last post and ask me questions before you make another incorrect assumption about what I am arguing.

Let us try again. Your above statement

Also, do these submitters who are not believers end up in hell? No way.

Is it your contention that these "submitter" desert Arabs who do not YET believe in the prophet and revelation they have become aware of might still avoid hell even if they end up dying in a state of non-belief? A simple YES or NO will suffice.

You and I just disagree on what counts as kufr or submission.

There are numerous examples of what constitutes "kufr" in the Qur'an. Being guilty of ANY ONE of these qualifies someone as a hell-bound "Kafir" in the sight of Allah. Do you deny this?

DH

As a reminder and a mercy. Doesn't mean it is not possible to "know god" without such reminders for some and for others it is a mercy for those that need reminding. Once again, "belief in god" is not a limited exclusive product for messengers/prophets to sell. There is no full/partial here. You either submit or you don't.

Let us suppose, on one of YGET's hypothetical islands, there exists in today's world a hitherto undiscovered society of atheists. They have been atheists for as far back as they can remember. They do not worship idols because they do not believe in gods, which disbelief is inculcated into them as soon as they can understand speech. So effective is this education that the possibility of the existence of a god NEVER arises in them throughout their lives. They have never heard of Muhammad, the Qur'an, bible, Jesus, Moses, Abraham or Adam. However, the following laws are on their statute book

Citizens

shall honor their parents.

not kill their unborn children from fear of poverty

shall not commit gross indecencies, publicly or privately.

shall not kill - except in the course of justice.

You shall not touch orphans' money, except for demonstrably valid reasons, until they reach maturity.

shall give full weight and full measure when they trade, equitably.

shall be absolutely just when they bear witness, even against their relatives.

Will these atheists who in many ways live an "Islamic" lifestyle go to paradise or hell?

You implied in your previous posts that babies are disbelievers and that is why God punishes them with suffering and death.

What other explanation can you provide as to why Allah might inflict terrible suffering on apparently innocent babies?

I asked you does suffering and death mean someone is a disbeliever?

Well everybody is going to die, according to the Qur'an. However, Allah DOES say he will inflict a "painful" worldly punishment on disbelievers. So, logically, we cannot rule out the possibility that those who live an APPARENTLY exemplary Islamic life are not quite as good as they appear to be and Allah has some reason, that we are unaware of, to regard them as disbelievers - even babies.

You concede later in this post that God can let terrible pain and suffering occur on even his most devoted slaves (believers like job).

Indeed. And BECAUSE of that, it does not seem unreasonable to suppose that he might inflict pain on completely innocent babies, kill them and throw them in hell, just because he feels like it.

Next, if you think God is a sadist you apparently haven't read and understood the quran that tells us in no uncertain terms that God is just and merciful and does not punish the innocent etc. God cannot be a sadist which means inflicting suffering, pain and cruelty for no reason but gratification. End of this line of argument as well.

So why would he inflict pain and suffering on innocent babies?

Where is your sense of logic? God controls life and death. He brings into the world a baby, innocent of any wrong doing because they do not even have the capacity to understand wrong or right, makes them suffer terribly and kills them. And we are supposed to believe these are "kafir" babies, which are going to suffer pain and suffering in hell as well even though they didn't stand a chance for believing or unbelieving because they couldn't as they didn't even have the capacity to!

So why do you think god makes babies suffer and takes them from the world before they have a chance to believe or disbelieve?

unknownuser

Will these atheists who in many ways live an "Islamic" lifestyle go to paradise or hell?

And where do your hypothetical atheists originate from, good sir? Rewind time to the beginning if needed.

I would say they submit to ALLAH in a different name. Instead of saying "God" they say "not God" but the concepts are identical. And thus, they do not need to go to hell. The quranic laws arise DIRECTLY because a day of clarity is going to come to man, and he must be prepared for it. If there was no such day, then quranic law would be irrelevant.

This is the day of total justice. Not a single soul will be wronged and this is also the day when everything will be balanced; This is the day when the Royal Mail of the universe establishes its dominion and every postman is told to follow one order - "RETURN TO SENDER"; all the pain accumulated will be delivered back to its originator, all the good will be returned back to its originator and as Royal Mail has its fuckups, it turns out that the sender of good gets 10 copies of his original letter.

Indeed. And BECAUSE of that, it does not seem unreasonable to suppose that he might inflict pain on completely innocent babies, kill them and throw them in hell, just because he feels like it.

It seems reasonable that innocent beings should not suffer in the end and should get paid back an equal price for any pain experienced. Now within reason, who is more reasonable, you and I or the originator of reason itself?

DH

And where do your hypothetical atheists originate from, good sir? Rewind time to the beginning if needed.

Well if we rewind time far enough, the atheists would - by the logic of the book of Allah - be descended from the first man, Adam. What should be deduced from this?

I would say they submit to ALLAH in a different name. Instead of saying "God" they say "not God" but the concepts are identical.

Eh????!!!!

And thus, they do not need to go to hell.

Well if one accepts your (ahem) questionable premise that Atheism (conscious denial of the existence of a god)=BELIEF in a "NOT god"=BELIEF in Allah then this would seem like a logical conclusion. Unfortunately, the Qur'an provides no support for this bit of semantic jiggery pokery and indeed repeatedly states that those who disbelieve in Allah will go to hell. To whom would you say those words about DISBELIEVERS IN ALLAH going to hell are applicable?

It seems reasonable that innocent beings should not suffer in the end and should get paid back an equal price for any pain experienced.

But why would Allah inflict pain and suffering on innocent people in the first place?

amin

I think a believer is one who has no ego, and they consider everyones God is the same ONE and believes they can only be guided by HIM right at this time.

Polytheists are one who think their God is different from others. they dont accept everyones God to be same and are more egoist about their beliefs, so some muslims also would come under this sect. they cant accept a person with a simple deviation from their idols , their idols are the rituals that they think will bless them to heaven, they took these rituals from prophet's life through Hadeeths. they think they are guided by their idols not by HIM.

savage_carrot

you're still repeating the old stuff.

Let us suppose, on one of YGET's hypothetical islands, there exists in today's world a hitherto undiscovered society of atheists. They have been atheists for as far back as they can remember. They do not worship idols because they do not believe in gods, which disbelief is inculcated into them as soon as they can understand speech. So effective is this education that the possibility of the existence of a god NEVER arises in them throughout their lives. They have never heard of Muhammad, the Qur'an, bible, Jesus, Moses, Abraham or Adam. However, the following laws are on their statute book

Citizens

shall honor their parents.

not kill their unborn children from fear of poverty

shall not commit gross indecencies, publicly or privately.

shall not kill - except in the course of justice.

You shall not touch orphans' money, except for demonstrably valid reasons, until they reach maturity.

shall give full weight and full measure when they trade, equitably.

shall be absolutely just when they bear witness, even against their relatives.

Will these atheists who in many ways live an "Islamic" lifestyle go to paradise or hell?
Your posts are like ghost trains running on a random schedule...and one can't help but wonder which surprise station is going to turn up next or the same station over and over again. Read very carefully and then reason For the possibility of rejection, first one has to be mentally capable and then second, have access to the information they are supposed to be rejecting. That is what the very meaning of a rejecter is! God's signs are all around us and inside us (as in the example of abraham). Your "hypothetical" situation has no basis in the reality presented in the quran once again, sorry.

What other explanation can you provide as to why Allah might inflict terrible suffering on apparently innocent babies?
Well everybody is going to die, according to the Qur'an. However, Allah DOES say he will inflict a "painful" worldly punishment on disbelievers. So, logically, we cannot rule out the possibility that those who live an APPARENTLY exemplary Islamic life are not quite as good as they appear to be and Allah has some reason, that we are unaware of, to regard them as disbelievers - even babies.
Indeed. And BECAUSE of that, it does not seem unreasonable to suppose that he might inflict pain on completely innocent babies, kill them and throw them in hell, just because he feels like it.
So why would he inflict pain and suffering on innocent babies?
So why do you think god makes babies suffer and takes them from the world before they have a chance to believe or disbelieve?
Re-read the posts and reason. You concede that anyone can suffer terrible suffering, believers or unbelievers hence terrible suffering CANNOT be used to determine one's believing or unbelieving status. How will you differentiate terrible suffering because it is a test from terrible suffering because it's a punishment? There is no possible way for you to gauge or know that unless you're God and you and I know you're not, so give it a rest. This reminds me of people saying ALL the people killed in natural disasters were disbelievers and had it coming. Utter rubbish and dangerous to boot.

Your scenario of innocents suffering in hell CANNOT happen. Why babies come into this world and die before they have a chance to believe or disbelieve, one can have a million explanations but this "inference/explanation" of yours contradicts the quran hence is disproved.

DH

You concede that anyone can suffer terrible suffering, believers or unbelievers

I do.

hence terrible suffering CANNOT be used to determine one's believing or unbelieving status.

However, the possibility must always be borne in mind - however "good" a person may appear on the surface.

How will you differentiate terrible suffering because it is a test from terrible suffering because it's a punishment?

I don't think you have explicitly raised "terrible suffering as test" before. The story of Job is generally understood to be an example of this.

There is no possible way for you to gauge or know that unless you're God and you and I know you're not, so give it a rest. This reminds me of people saying ALL the people killed in natural disasters were disbelievers and had it coming. Utter rubbish and dangerous to boot.

And, thanks to you, we now have two reasons why Allah might inflict natural disasters like he inflicted on the folk of Ad and Thamud

The afflicted are kafirs
Allah is testing the believers by being cruel to them like he tested Job

Any other Qur'anically supportable reasons why Allah might inflict natural disasters like earthquakes on people? Just one more will do - with corroborative chapter and verse from the Qur'an of course.

Your scenario of innocents suffering in hell CANNOT happen. Why babies come into this world and die before they have a chance to believe or disbelieve, one can have a million explanations

Provide just one

but this "inference/explanation" of yours contradicts the quran hence is disproved.

Please remind me again of where it contradicts the Qur'an.

Your "hypothetical" situation has no basis in the reality presented in the quran once again, sorry.

Are you implying (either or both) that there could not conceivably arise

a society of atheists
a society of atheists who somehow manage to spontaneously develop a society ruled by the above "Islam-like" laws independently of any exposure to divine messengers like Isa or Muhammad

????

savage_carrot

However, the possibility must always be borne in mind - however "good" a person may appear on the surface.
if the possibility is a possibility, not if it is an impossibility.

I don't think you have explicitly raised "terrible suffering as test" before. The story of Job is generally understood to be an example of this.

I asked you does suffering and death mean someone is a disbeliever? You concede later in this post that God can let terrible pain and suffering occur on even his most devoted slaves (believers like job). Thus suffering, pain and death cannot be used to "determine" someones believing or disbelieving status. End of.
Maybe I should start writing Explicit Statement Ahoy --> .... since apparently reasoning takes effort.

And, thanks to you, we now have two reasons why Allah might inflict natural disasters like he inflicted on the folk of Ad and Thamud

The afflicted are kafirs
Allah is testing the believers by being cruel to them like he tested Job
Any other Qur'anically supportable reasons why Allah might inflict natural disasters like earthquakes on people? Just one more will do - with corroborative chapter and verse from the Qur'an of course
Once again, say anything even if it contradicts the quran, and don't use reasoning because it takes effort. If Allah was cruel, he wouldn't be described as the most merciful/compassionate and just. There can be only one, so choose Is Allah cruel or is he the most merciful/compassionate and just? There is only one answer to this that doesn't contradict the quran.

Provide just one
It is irrelevant to the topic.

Please remind me again of where it contradicts the Qur'an.

Next, if you think God is a sadist you apparently haven't read and understood the quran that tells us in no uncertain terms that God is just and merciful and does not punish the innocent etc.

He brings into the world a baby, innocent of any wrong doing because they do not even have the capacity to understand wrong or right, makes them suffer terribly and kills them. And we are supposed to believe these are "kafir" babies, which are going to suffer pain and suffering in hell as well even though they didn't stand a chance for believing or unbelieving because they couldn't as they didn't even have the capacity to! If this is your idea of "maybe God might do this" it's way off base.

Your scenario of innocents suffering in hell CANNOT happen.

Are you implying (either or both) that there could not conceivably arise

a society of atheists
a society of atheists who somehow manage to spontaneously develop a society ruled by the above "Islam-like" laws independently of any exposure to divine messengers like Isa or Muhammad

For the possibility of rejection, first one has to be mentally capable and then second, have access to the information they are supposed to be rejecting. That is what the very meaning of a rejecter is! God's signs are all around us and inside us (as in the example of abraham).

DH

However, the possibility must always be borne in mind - however "good" a person may appear on the surface.

if the possibility is a possibility, not if it is an impossibility.

And it is clearly NOT an impossibility that someone may appear, to all intents and purposes, to be an exemplary Muslim but has done, said or even thought something that has led Allah to categorize them as a hell-deserving kafir.

I don't think you have explicitly raised "terrible suffering as test" before. The story of Job is generally understood to be an example of this.

I asked you does suffering and death mean someone is a disbeliever? You concede later in this post that God can let terrible pain and suffering occur on even his most devoted slaves (believers like job). Thus suffering, pain and death cannot be used to "determine" someones believing or disbelieving status. End of.
Maybe I should start writing Explicit Statement Ahoy --> .... since apparently reasoning takes effort. Maybe I should start writing Explicit Statement Ahoy --> .... since apparently reasoning takes effort.

I was merely agreeing with you that the story of Job can be taken as an example of suffering as test of faith - even though the Qur'an does not go into the matter in the detail of the bible.

Provide just one

It is irrelevant to the topic.

You can't think of one single explanation can you?

Please remind me again of where it contradicts the Qur'an.

Next, if you think God is a sadist you apparently haven't read and understood the quran that tells us in no uncertain terms that God is just and merciful and does not punish the innocent etc....He brings into the world a baby, innocent of any wrong doing because they do not even have the capacity to understand wrong or right, makes them suffer terribly and kills them. And we are supposed to believe these are "kafir" babies, which are going to suffer pain and suffering in hell as well even though they didn't stand a chance for believing or unbelieving because they couldn't as they didn't even have the capacity to! If this is your idea of "maybe God might do this" it's way off base. Your scenario of innocents suffering in hell CANNOT happen.

You appear to be superimposing your own wayward ideas of what a "just" "merciful" god is on Allah. Allah, according to the Qur'an, has bestowed faculties of reasoning on mankind yet threatens to burn them in hell if their use of these faculties leads them NOT to unquestioningly believe in him and his messenger. There are numerous examples of the Qur'an detailing objections that the disbelievers made to accepting the book of Allah as the divine word - objections which seem perfectly reasonable to one part of my mind. Yet Allah threatens to punish them in this world and the hereafter for using the reasoning faculties HE GAVE THEM in this manner. It must be concluded then, that whatever Allah says or does is "just" and "merciful" simply because Allah says or does them. It would then be clear that his killing babies and burning them in hell would be "just" and "merciful" for that reason alone.

Are you implying (either or both) that there could not conceivably arise

a society of atheists
a society of atheists who somehow manage to spontaneously develop a society ruled by the above "Islam-like" laws independently of any exposure to divine messengers like Isa or Muhammad

For the possibility of rejection, first one has to be mentally capable and then second, have access to the information they are supposed to be rejecting. That is what the very meaning of a rejecter is! God's signs are all around us and inside us (as in the example of abraham).

And my postulated isolated society of atheists ARE mentally capable. They have pondered "God's signs all around them" and have come to the conclusion that they do not signify the existence of an omniscient deity responsible for the existence and ordering of the universe. So I ask again, will they or will they not go to hell for their denial of the existence of Allah?

you_gunna_eat_that