Please help translating 2:125- Thanks

san

I have presented my view before

... i just want to share my current view on how to see this natural, physically-boundless relationship and interaction between humanity, under the invitation of the Nurturer of all Natures -- which can be performed by any family or household, at any time and at any home place and in any community on this earth...

You might want to ask those who still believe in Mecca, the city. Not me. P

herbman

As far as I'm aware "mu" means "one who... (whatever it is attached to)", e.g. muslim, mumin, mushrik.

So, in this case the literal rendering of "musallan" = "one who turns/goes towards in a close/positive manner" or more succinctly "one who bonds".

Salam, Peace Wakas, all,

1- mussalan in the verse refer to makan and not to ibrahim, please correct if I am wrong.
2- mu- prefix can be more general not only for persons e.g. mubarak (where baraka is on, can be a day, a year, a place)
3- maqam ibrahima mussalan could mean Ibrahim's position/faith is a where the bond/link is on--> which means The key to perform the bond/link is to get the same position as Ibrahim about Monotheism/association.

Peace

san

Peace Herbman and everyone,

Salam, Peace Wakas, all,

1- mussalan in the verse refer to makan and not to ibrahim, please correct if I am wrong.
2- mu- prefix can be more general not only for persons e.g. mubarak (where baraka is on, can be a day, a year, a place)
3- maqam ibrahima mussalan could mean Ibrahim's position/faith is a where the bond/link is on--> which means The key to perform the bond/link is to get the same position as Ibrahim about Monotheism/association.

Peace

makan? you mean maqam? how/why?
for the example of "mubarak"

692 kitaabun as mubarakun
6155 kitaabun as mubarakun
1931 (Iysa 'ibn Maryam) as mubarakan 2150 d.ikrun (a reminder) as mubarakun 2329 munzalan (place to descend sth?) as mubarakan 2435 s.ajaratin (tree) as mubarakatin 2830 Albuqati (a water source?) as Almubarakati
449 laylatin (night) as mubarakatin
509 maa`an (water) from the sky as mubarakan

mu- could well be the performer--i.e, a subject who performs something. In case of mubarak-, the performer of barakah -- e.g., if you take "barakah" as "blessing", then "mubarak-" is the performer/deliverer of blessing.

note in the example above, the 'suffix' is always in harmony with the subject

Now let's get to the trickier verse

396 Inna awwala baytin wudia li-lnaAsi la-llad.iy bi-bakkata mubaArakAn wa hudAn li-lalamiyn

mubarakan wahudan ... yet no other subject with -an in the verse. Does mubarakan refer to another subject not in the verse? Or does mubarakan refer to no one in particular? Thus the "awwal" in the verse means the "beginning" of a bayt (i.e., not the First House)?

Because i have another view to read this verse as

Indeed -- beginning of -- a bayt (home/house/family) -- appointed/brought forth/delivered/laid-in-place -- for mankind -- (em) is that which -- with hardship/denial/pressure/competition -- of a mubarak (one with blessing, or one striving/exerting/laboring, firmly/constantly/continuously) -- and a guidance -- for the worlds.

In 367 Ibrahim is "Hanifan musliman"; in 1931 `Iysa is "mubarakan"; in 2125, min maqaAmi IbraAhiyma muSallan

Considering the examples above, now i begin to think that muSallan is indeed Ibrahim himself and not the maqam. However, i very much agree that the key to understand Salla/Salaat is indeed in the maqam of Ibrahim. Which, i think, is explained extensively through AQ...

Previously we know that there is a relation between maqamin and Aminin (4451). Within the verse 2125 itself, is there some kind of relationship between the characters of Albayt with Salla/Salaat? I mean

mat.aabatan ~ AmnAn ~ muSallAn ?

returning/gathering/summoning/congregation ~ safety/security/faith/peace ~ Salaat ?

Peace

Wakas

peace herbman,

I'm unable to clarify the grammar aspect at the moment. However, either way, I'm not sure if it impacts my present view. Perhaps someone can clarify the grammar aspect.

Joe_Betik

salamun AAalaykum herbman & the rest,

perhaps you may want to consider this

And then We made meditation (Wa-ith jaAAalna albayta) an asylum for people (mathabatan lilnnasi), and a method to appease the mind (waamnan), and you (pl.) make out of Ibrahim?s standing (waittakhithoo min maqami ibraheem), one with the burning desire to know (musallan). And We have assigned Ibrahim (waAAahidna ila ibraheema) and also Ismael (wa-ismaAAeel) to refine the meditation on Me (an tahhira baytiya), for those wandering in thoughts (liltta-ifeen) while devoting (waalAAakifeen), and also the respectfully acknowledging (waalrrukkaAAi alssujoodi).
And then Ibrahim said (Wa-ith qala ibraheem), ?My Lord, make this ?idiot? peaceful (rabbi ijAAal hatha baladan aminan), and provide my followers with the benefits (waorzuq ahlahu mina alththamarat), whoever among them who believe in God and the last day (man amana minhum biAllahi waalyawmi al-akhir).? He said (qala), ?But whoever is ungrateful (waman kafara), then his happiness is for a little while (faomattiAAuhu qaleelan), then I shall drive him to the agony of fire (thumma adtarruhu ila AAathabi alnnar). What an evil destination (wabi/sa almaseer)!?

may God guide us on the correct path, insha-Allah.

peace
mohammed noh

noble

Peace
I think what it means is the underlying practical aspect that the Salat as ritual prayer has direction,
and needs to be physically directed to maqam Ibrahim (the place where Ibrahim and his son built the first temple for mankind in Bekkah, and where the pilgrimage also happens).
This is further detailed in other verses...
You know Occam's razor (simplest arabic meaning of maqam is place).

Mazhar

mu- could well be the performer--i.e, a subject who performs something. In case of mubarak-, the performer of barakah -- e.g., if you take "barakah" as "blessing", then "mubarak-" is the performer/deliverer of blessing.

But the problem is that he is not performer, but passive participle.

san

But the problem is that he is not performer, but passive participle.

Thanks. you're right.

This is erroneous in many ways

mu- could well be the performer--i.e, a subject who performs something. In case of mubarak-, the performer of barakah -- e.g., if you take "barakah" as "blessing", then "mubarak-" is the performer/deliverer of blessing.

first, i should've written it mubaarak-, and baaraka the verb not baarakah the noun. Then again the active participle is mubaarik- ... I was trying to view the passive participle as active participle. It doesn't work right, mostly. Forgive me for that. Seeing there is no mubaarik- mentioned in AQ may show that there is no one who "bless" other than God...

Peace

Wakas

peace Mazhar, all,

But the problem is that he is not performer, but passive participle.

Can you (or others) clarify if you mean "musallan" is a passive participle? I assume you do.

I think this may be correct, according to this which I quoted previously http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_grammar

Stems II-X take prefix mu- and nominal endings for both the participles, active and passive. The difference between the two participles is only in the vowel between the last two root letters, which is -i- for active and -a- for passive (e.g. II. active mu-fail-un, and passive mu-faal-un&#039.

This would imply Abraham received the action expressed in the verb salla, which I would render as "to go/turn towards in a close/positive manner" or "to bond", or "to invoke blessings upon" (according to Toshihiko Izutsu).

Which would make sense in the context, literal "... and take from the position/status/stance of Abraham, the receiver of blessing/bonding, and We made a convenant to Abraham that "You shall purify..."

Also see 3343, 3356.

Thoughts?

Mazhar

Can you (or others) clarify if you mean "musallan" is a passive participle? I assume you do.

I think this may be correct, according to this which I quoted previously http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_grammar-Wakas

Peace, I had pointed out this

is

It is from .

And this is in accusative case ending; the direct object of the verb ; Imperative; second person; masculine; plural, with subject pronoun "". And which is object of the verb is any part from the standing place of Ibraheim alahissalam, who is the builder of the House; and the builder has obviously to stand on all the sides of four walls for raising them.

Wakas

peace Mazhar,

Ahh ok, I think I understand now.

And take, from maqam Abraham, musallan.

I will need to ponder over the grammar/construction of musallan, unless it can be clarified.

However, I'm surprised you take maqam Abraham as a physical standing place, as this is not common for meaning of maqam in Al Quran. Secondly, it is completely refuted by 397

In it (bayt) clear/manifest signs/evidences, the stance/position/status of Abraham, and whoever enters it (bayt) is securing...

Can you clarify?

Mazhar

peace Mazhar,

Ahh ok, I think I understand now.

And take, from maqam Abraham, musallan.

I will need to ponder over the grammar/construction of musallan, unless it can be clarified.

Pl state what clarification you need. It is a location adverb. And is some/any part of the whole of the standing place of Ibraheim alaihissalam. The Arabic words are simple and straigtforward, no place to construe otherwise.

However, I'm surprised you take maqam Abraham as a physical standing place, as this is not common for meaning of maqam in Al Quran. Secondly, it is completely refuted by 397.

May be it is because you have not yet studied what the word Muqam means, and its usage at 18 places, which will InshaAllah leave no room not to perceive it correctly.

In it (bayt) clear/manifest signs/evidences, the stance/position/status of Abraham, and whoever enters it (bayt) is securing...

This too seems to be the result of not having analysed the first sentence of the Aayat. The first three words are a complete sentence which is the inverted one . Muqamu Inrahima is possessive phrase, the first becomes definite and conveyes the same meaning as being earlier discussed.

Can you clarify?

herbman

Thanks Wakas, Mazhar, all,

here is a word with similar construction if you want to have a look

found in verse 6114

"Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt."

from PRL

FASALA To set apart, separate, distinguish, set a limit, part, depart, decide, set out, divide into parts, expatiate into detail, make clear (statement), distinct, judge, narrate a thing with all its particulars.
FASLUN Distinguishing, Decisive
MUFASSALAN Clearly explained
FUSSILAT Detailed
MUFASSALAT Fully detailed

Peace

Wakas

peace Mazhar,

By clarification of "musallan" I mean what does the grammar/construction of this word imply or tell us. What initially threw me was the use of "mu" as I thought if it was a place it would have been "ma". Is there any significance to the mu/ma in this case?

From http//www.learnarabiconline.com/arabic-adverbs.shtml

The locative adverb gives the time or place of occurrence for an action. This adverb, however, cannot be used to give the place of action if such a place has well-defined, physical limits.

I'm not sure if the part in red has any significance or not, considering the traditional understanding of 'maqam Abraham' has well defined physical limits.

In any case, here is my literal understanding
take = plural, imperative, form 8 (generally reflexive)
musallan = location adverb ~ place of salla

"And take (for yourselves), from stance/position/status (of) Abraham, a place of/to salla"
or
"And take (for yourselves), from Abraham's stance/position/status, a place of/to salla"

re 397

This too seems to be the result of not having analysed the first sentence of the Aayat. The first three words are a complete sentence which is the inverted one . Muqamu Inrahima is possessive phrase, the first becomes definite and conveyes the same meaning as being earlier discussed.

I don't understand what you mean here. Are you saying this

"In it (bayt) clear/manifest signs/evidences. Abraham's stance/position/status, and whoever enters it (maqam Abraham) is securing."

?

Mazhar

here is a word with similar construction if you want to have a look

Thanks herbman,

It is from " ", to segregate, alienate one from the other, demarcate, isolate one from the other--the effect of which is that the matter gets explained.
The under study word is from " ".

herbman

Thanks herbman,

It is from " ", to segregate, alienate one from the other, demarcate, isolate one from the other--the effect of which is that the matter gets explained.
The under study word is from " ".

This was to help understanding sallah-->musalah, I read once in this forum someone who translated it by "LINKER" if salat means "LINK".
This makes sense when we have a close look on FASALA-->MUFASALA, translated by "explained"-->"fully or well" explained, I would even say "explained by itself", which bring us to the conclusion

Remember We made the BEIT a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the position of Abraham (against polytheism) as a LINKER/self bondage/LINK by itself; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma`il that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round or use it as a retreat or bow, or prostrate themselves.

any thought?
Peace

Mazhar

By clarification of "musallan" I mean what does the grammar/construction of this word imply or tell us. What initially threw me was the use of "mu" as I thought if it was a place it would have been "ma". Is there any significance to the mu/ma in this case?

From http//www.learnarabiconline.com/arabic-adverbs.shtml

Quote
The locative adverb gives the time or place of occurrence for an action. This adverb, however, cannot be used to give the place of action if such a place has well-defined, physical limits.

I'm not sure if the part in red has any significance or not, considering the traditional understanding of 'maqam Abraham' has well defined physical limits.

In any case, here is my literal understanding
take = plural, imperative, form 8 (generally reflexive)
musallan = location adverb ~ place of salla

The locative noun here is "Direct Object" of the Verb and is NOT Locative Adverb in the sentence under study. What that site is telling is exactly correct, if we do not consider "Direct object" also to be at the same time in the same sentence.

Wakas

peace Mazhar,

You said it was a "locative adverb" in reply #27.

Ok, so let's say it is a "locative noun", my literal translation stays the same

"And take (for yourselves), from stance/position/status (of) Abraham, a place of/to salla"
or
"And take (for yourselves), from Abraham's stance/position/status, a place of/to salla"

If you disagree, let me know.

Also

I don't understand what you mean here. Are you saying this

"In it (bayt) clear/manifest signs/evidences. Abraham's stance/position/status, and whoever enters it (maqam Abraham) is securing."

herbman

peace Mazhar,

You said it was a "locative adverb" in reply #27.

Ok, so let's say it is a "locative noun", my literal translation stays the same

"And take (for yourselves), from stance/position/status (of) Abraham, a place of/to salla"
or
"And take (for yourselves), from Abraham's stance/position/status, a place of/to salla"

If you disagree, let me know.

Also

Would you translate as a place for/of explanation? So why are then you translating musalah as a place of/to salla?
Is the verse refering to a place? which place?

Please share.

Mazhar

"And take (for yourselves), from stance/position/status (of) Abraham, a place of/to salla"
or
"And take (for yourselves), from Abraham's stance/position/status, a place of/to salla"

But Brother, what perception does this sentence convey. Please state it in plain every day speech style.

"Locative Adverb" in Arabic is a Noun. When we use it with reference to its role in a sentence, then "Locative Adverb" has a different meanings and connotation, than when it is . For clarification/confusion of red part of quote I used the term "Locative noun" to clarify that it is not Locative Adverb in the sentence.

re 397

Quote
This too seems to be the result of not having analysed the first sentence of the Aayat. The first three words are a complete sentence which is the inverted one . Muqamu Inrahima is possessive phrase, the first becomes definite and conveyes the same meaning as being earlier discussed.

I don't understand what you mean here. Are you saying this

"In it (bayt) clear/manifest signs/evidences. Abraham's stance/position/status, and whoever enters it (maqam Abraham) is securing."

Yes that was with reference to 397.