Please help translating 2:125- Thanks
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Peace
I think what it means is the underlying practical aspect that the Salat as ritual prayer has direction,
and needs to be physically directed to maqam Ibrahim (the place where Ibrahim and his son built the first temple for mankind in Bekkah, and where the pilgrimage also happens).
This is further detailed in other verses...
You know Occam's razor (simplest arabic meaning of maqam is place). -
mu- could well be the performer--i.e, a subject who performs something. In case of mubarak-, the performer of barakah -- e.g., if you take "barakah" as "blessing", then "mubarak-" is the performer/deliverer of blessing.
But the problem is that he is not performer, but passive participle.
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But the problem is that he is not performer, but passive participle.
Thanks. you're right.
This is erroneous in many ways
mu- could well be the performer--i.e, a subject who performs something. In case of mubarak-, the performer of barakah -- e.g., if you take "barakah" as "blessing", then "mubarak-" is the performer/deliverer of blessing.
first, i should've written it mubaarak-, and baaraka the verb not baarakah the noun. Then again the active participle is mubaarik- ... I was trying to view the passive participle as active participle. It doesn't work right, mostly. Forgive me for that. Seeing there is no mubaarik- mentioned in AQ may show that there is no one who "bless" other than God...
Peace
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peace Mazhar, all,
But the problem is that he is not performer, but passive participle.
Can you (or others) clarify if you mean "musallan" is a passive participle? I assume you do.
I think this may be correct, according to this which I quoted previously http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_grammar
Stems II-X take prefix mu- and nominal endings for both the participles, active and passive. The difference between the two participles is only in the vowel between the last two root letters, which is -i- for active and -a- for passive (e.g. II. active mu-fail-un, and passive mu-faal-un'.
This would imply Abraham received the action expressed in the verb salla, which I would render as "to go/turn towards in a close/positive manner" or "to bond", or "to invoke blessings upon" (according to Toshihiko Izutsu).
Which would make sense in the context, literal "... and take from the position/status/stance of Abraham, the receiver of blessing/bonding, and We made a convenant to Abraham that "You shall purify..."
Also see 3343, 3356.
Thoughts?
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Can you (or others) clarify if you mean "musallan" is a passive participle? I assume you do.
I think this may be correct, according to this which I quoted previously http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_grammar-Wakas
Peace, I had pointed out this
is
It is from .
And this is in accusative case ending; the direct object of the verb ; Imperative; second person; masculine; plural, with subject pronoun "". And which is object of the verb is any part from the standing place of Ibraheim alahissalam, who is the builder of the House; and the builder has obviously to stand on all the sides of four walls for raising them.
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peace Mazhar,
Ahh ok, I think I understand now.
And take, from maqam Abraham, musallan.
I will need to ponder over the grammar/construction of musallan, unless it can be clarified.
However, I'm surprised you take maqam Abraham as a physical standing place, as this is not common for meaning of maqam in Al Quran. Secondly, it is completely refuted by 397
In it (bayt) clear/manifest signs/evidences, the stance/position/status of Abraham, and whoever enters it (bayt) is securing...
Can you clarify?
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peace Mazhar,
Ahh ok, I think I understand now.
And take, from maqam Abraham, musallan.
I will need to ponder over the grammar/construction of musallan, unless it can be clarified.
Pl state what clarification you need. It is a location adverb. And is some/any part of the whole of the standing place of Ibraheim alaihissalam. The Arabic words are simple and straigtforward, no place to construe otherwise.
However, I'm surprised you take maqam Abraham as a physical standing place, as this is not common for meaning of maqam in Al Quran. Secondly, it is completely refuted by 397.
May be it is because you have not yet studied what the word Muqam means, and its usage at 18 places, which will InshaAllah leave no room not to perceive it correctly.
In it (bayt) clear/manifest signs/evidences, the stance/position/status of Abraham, and whoever enters it (bayt) is securing...
This too seems to be the result of not having analysed the first sentence of the Aayat. The first three words are a complete sentence which is the inverted one . Muqamu Inrahima is possessive phrase, the first becomes definite and conveyes the same meaning as being earlier discussed.
Can you clarify?
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Thanks Wakas, Mazhar, all,
here is a word with similar construction if you want to have a look
found in verse 6114
"Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt."
from PRL
FASALA To set apart, separate, distinguish, set a limit, part, depart, decide, set out, divide into parts, expatiate into detail, make clear (statement), distinct, judge, narrate a thing with all its particulars.
FASLUN Distinguishing, Decisive
MUFASSALAN Clearly explained
FUSSILAT Detailed
MUFASSALAT Fully detailedPeace
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peace Mazhar,
By clarification of "musallan" I mean what does the grammar/construction of this word imply or tell us. What initially threw me was the use of "mu" as I thought if it was a place it would have been "ma". Is there any significance to the mu/ma in this case?
From http//www.learnarabiconline.com/arabic-adverbs.shtml
The locative adverb gives the time or place of occurrence for an action. This adverb, however, cannot be used to give the place of action if such a place has well-defined, physical limits.
I'm not sure if the part in red has any significance or not, considering the traditional understanding of 'maqam Abraham' has well defined physical limits.
In any case, here is my literal understanding
take = plural, imperative, form 8 (generally reflexive)
musallan = location adverb ~ place of salla"And take (for yourselves), from stance/position/status (of) Abraham, a place of/to salla"
or
"And take (for yourselves), from Abraham's stance/position/status, a place of/to salla"re 397
This too seems to be the result of not having analysed the first sentence of the Aayat. The first three words are a complete sentence which is the inverted one . Muqamu Inrahima is possessive phrase, the first becomes definite and conveyes the same meaning as being earlier discussed.
I don't understand what you mean here. Are you saying this
"In it (bayt) clear/manifest signs/evidences. Abraham's stance/position/status, and whoever enters it (maqam Abraham) is securing."
?
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here is a word with similar construction if you want to have a look
Thanks herbman,
It is from " ", to segregate, alienate one from the other, demarcate, isolate one from the other--the effect of which is that the matter gets explained.
The under study word is from " ". -
Thanks herbman,
It is from " ", to segregate, alienate one from the other, demarcate, isolate one from the other--the effect of which is that the matter gets explained.
The under study word is from " ".This was to help understanding sallah-->musalah, I read once in this forum someone who translated it by "LINKER" if salat means "LINK".
This makes sense when we have a close look on FASALA-->MUFASALA, translated by "explained"-->"fully or well" explained, I would even say "explained by itself", which bring us to the conclusionRemember We made the BEIT a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the position of Abraham (against polytheism) as a LINKER/self bondage/LINK by itself; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma`il that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round or use it as a retreat or bow, or prostrate themselves.
any thought?
Peace -
By clarification of "musallan" I mean what does the grammar/construction of this word imply or tell us. What initially threw me was the use of "mu" as I thought if it was a place it would have been "ma". Is there any significance to the mu/ma in this case?
From http//www.learnarabiconline.com/arabic-adverbs.shtml
Quote
The locative adverb gives the time or place of occurrence for an action. This adverb, however, cannot be used to give the place of action if such a place has well-defined, physical limits.I'm not sure if the part in red has any significance or not, considering the traditional understanding of 'maqam Abraham' has well defined physical limits.
In any case, here is my literal understanding
take = plural, imperative, form 8 (generally reflexive)
musallan = location adverb ~ place of sallaThe locative noun here is "Direct Object" of the Verb and is NOT Locative Adverb in the sentence under study. What that site is telling is exactly correct, if we do not consider "Direct object" also to be at the same time in the same sentence.
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peace Mazhar,
You said it was a "locative adverb" in reply #27.
Ok, so let's say it is a "locative noun", my literal translation stays the same
"And take (for yourselves), from stance/position/status (of) Abraham, a place of/to salla"
or
"And take (for yourselves), from Abraham's stance/position/status, a place of/to salla"If you disagree, let me know.
Also
I don't understand what you mean here. Are you saying this
"In it (bayt) clear/manifest signs/evidences. Abraham's stance/position/status, and whoever enters it (maqam Abraham) is securing."
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peace Mazhar,
You said it was a "locative adverb" in reply #27.
Ok, so let's say it is a "locative noun", my literal translation stays the same
"And take (for yourselves), from stance/position/status (of) Abraham, a place of/to salla"
or
"And take (for yourselves), from Abraham's stance/position/status, a place of/to salla"If you disagree, let me know.
Also
Would you translate as a place for/of explanation? So why are then you translating musalah as a place of/to salla?
Is the verse refering to a place? which place?Please share.
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"And take (for yourselves), from stance/position/status (of) Abraham, a place of/to salla"
or
"And take (for yourselves), from Abraham's stance/position/status, a place of/to salla"But Brother, what perception does this sentence convey. Please state it in plain every day speech style.
"Locative Adverb" in Arabic is a Noun. When we use it with reference to its role in a sentence, then "Locative Adverb" has a different meanings and connotation, than when it is . For clarification/confusion of red part of quote I used the term "Locative noun" to clarify that it is not Locative Adverb in the sentence.
re 397
Quote
This too seems to be the result of not having analysed the first sentence of the Aayat. The first three words are a complete sentence which is the inverted one . Muqamu Inrahima is possessive phrase, the first becomes definite and conveyes the same meaning as being earlier discussed.I don't understand what you mean here. Are you saying this
"In it (bayt) clear/manifest signs/evidences. Abraham's stance/position/status, and whoever enters it (maqam Abraham) is securing."
Yes that was with reference to 397.
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Peace herbman,
The distance between these two Arabic words is that of north and south pole. I have given its meanings in earlier post.
Peace Mazhar,
don't get me wrong, I am NOT talking about the meaning at all, I am talking about the gramatical structur.
Peace
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peace all,
Mazhar,
But Brother, what perception does this sentence convey. Please state it in plain every day speech style.
At the moment, my main interest is not the meaning/perception. For me, there is no point thinking hard and trying to figure out a meaning when I have the grammar incorrect, so I am trying to determine in detail and exactness what the grammatical structure is, THEN I will consider the perception/meaning and let you know.
Yes that was with reference to 397.
Thanks for the info, but you already implied maqam Abraham was the standing place of Abraham, therefore how can someone enter it?
As is quite common there is variance amongst Traditional commentators, e.g. Ibn Kathir, Al-Jalalayn, as to what "it" refers to.
Herbman,
I understand your point, but I cannot comment as I cannot be certain about the grammar. Hence my questions. I do know that corpus.quran.com differentiates the grammar of these two words. It would be nice if someone with knowledge of Arabic grammar can clarify/confirm. -
Herbman,
I understand your point, but I cannot comment as I cannot be certain about the grammar. Hence my questions. I do know that corpus.quran.com differentiates the grammar of these two words. It would be nice if someone with knowledge of Arabic grammar can clarify/confirm.Salam Wakas,
In corpus.quran.com both words are accusative and for mufassalan it is also said "N ? accusative masculine indefinite (form II) passive participle"
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=125 mussalan
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=6&verse=114 mufassalanPeace
