Jesus, Virgin Births, Miracles, Symbolisms.

mmkhan

Salaaman LB,

Can someone prouve that Isa was born of a virgin ? is there a clear statement that she conceived while she was a virgin ?

Can YOU prove that Eisa (AS) was NOT born of a virgin? Is there a CLEAR STATEMENT that she conceived while she was NOT a virgin?

May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan

mmkhan

Salaaman LB,

and after that , what happened? did she conceive ? or god gave his command to the natirel process?
this messenger told her a revelation that is what alllah said, it is easy, and the matter is decreed.

so , what you can understand here, what is the matter decreed ? the naturel process of conception, or just by magic a sperme will be growing in her to foem a foetus ?
see , this messenger is the key.

I understand it as follows

Yes she conceive but when Rooh was blown into her/him. I know, you must be thinking why I said her/him, let me explain you my understanding on the same.

Women has XX chromosomes
Men has XY chromosomes

And X + X chromosomes makes a baby girl
And X + Y chromosomes makes a baby boy

When Marium conceives without a touch of a men, she has to give birth to a baby girl because she has only X + X chromosomes. But that was not the case, she gave birth to a baby boy, how?

Allah said

2191

2191 And the one who protected her chastity, so We blew into her from Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.

"Feeha" means "Into HER"

6612

6612 And Mary, daughter of Imran, who maintained the chastity of her private part, so We blew into him/it from Our Spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Books; and she was of those who were dutiful.

"Feehi" means "Into HIM / IT"

From this I understand that Marium was having X + Y chromosomes, and she gave birth to a baby boy. In this way, there is nothing against 'Sunnat Allah'.

Furthermore, just to make her go through all this process, she was treated differently as follows

337

337 So her Lord accepted her a good acceptance, and made her grow into a good growth, and charged Zachariah with her. Every time Zachariah entered upon her in the temple enclosure, he found provisions with her. He said O Marium, from where did you get this? She said It is from Allah, for Allah provides for whom He wishes without reckoning.

1- Zachariah (AS) was given KAFAALAT of Marium. He takes care of her as his own child , how can he be a father of Eisa (AS)?

2- EVERY TIME Zachariah (AS) enter upon her, he found RIZQ with her.

3- Zachariah (AS) asked her where did you get this , he don't know? even though he was a care taker of her.

4- Marium said "It is from Allah", she didn't say, this is what we cook today, or this is what you brought for us, etc, etc..

This clearly means to me that Marium was treated specially. And also look at this point

4171

4171 O people of the Book, do not overstep in your system, nor say about Allah except the truth. Eisa, son of Mary, was no more than a messenger of Allah and His word cast it down to Mary and a Spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and do not say Trinity. Cease, for it is better for you. Allah is only One god, be He glorified that He should have a son! To Him is all that is in the heavens and the earth; and Allah is enough as a Caretaker.

Moderators please correct in Arabic Text "AlQaaha ila Marium" NOT "AlQayha" 4171

It is said " " What means "Alqaa" to you? Look at 2019

2019
2019 He said Cast it down O Moses.

Why Alqaa?

Another point

5110

5110 Allah said O Eisa, son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother, that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and middle-age; and I taught you the Book and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Injeel; and you would create from clay the shape of a bird, then blow into it and it becomes a bird with My permission; and you would heal the blind and the leaper with My permission; and you would bring out the dead with My permission. And I have restrained the Children of Israel from you, that you came to them with proofs; but those who rejected among them said This is clearly magic!

Why Allah asked Eisa (AS) to recall His blessings upon HIM and HIS MOTHER only? Why not his father ?

Now the most important part

2350

2350 And We made the son of Marium and his mother a sign, and We gave them refuge on high ground, a place for resting and with a flowing stream.

"Aayat" means something unique or nothing is similar to aayat, like the aayaats of AlQuraan/AlKitaab is unique, tree, skies, sun, moon, shadow, air, water, everything is unique and they are not similar to anything, so they are aayaats.

Sorry for the long post.

Hope this may be of some help inshaAllah to you or to others.

May Allah guide us all in His path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

Raaajah

loxbox

Can someone prouve that Isa was born of a virgin ? is there a clear statement that she conceived while she was a virgin ?

Is the following verse not a proof?

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/temp26%203.47.gif

walam yamsasn basharun? and (has) not touch(ed) me any human?

even a kid can understand for what purpose Hazrat Mariam uttered these words, she would have been touched by many humans since her child hood but for "specific purpose" (inter-course) no one had touched her, as it is mentioned in the Ayat.

loxbox13

loxbox
Is the following verse not a proof?

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/temp26%203.47.gif

walam yamsasn basharun? and (has) not touch(ed) me any human?

even a kid can understand for what purpose Hazrat Mariam uttered these words, she would have been touched by many humans since her child hood but for "specific purpose" (inter-course) no one had touched her, as it is mentioned in the Ayat.

You saying even a kid can understand this as a virgin !
but of course, he wasn't married when she get the news, that is a part of her belief in kalimat rabiha, she get the news even before marriage, and this is a sign , but " Lam Yamssasni Bashar " doesn't translate N oone touched me, but " I am not married."
because Lams is only for married people.
exemple
(Lam Yamssassni Bashar), meaning sexual touching by husband to his wife after marriage

Those who had estranged their women, then they retracted what they had said, they shall free a slave before they have sexual contact between them. 583

If he cannot find any, then he shall fast two consecutive months before any sexual contact between them 584

or you have had sexual contact with the women

As you see , she was talking about LAMS, meaning marriage, and god god said that is easy for me.4the easy part isn't the sperm, but the marriage , the way to make her LAMAS in marriage.
that is why Allah said in twi verses, AHSANAT , and Ahsanat means married,
for a man , it is Ankaha
for a woman, allah don't use the word Ankahat, but Ahsanat .

Raaajah

loxbox

but of course, he wasn't married when she get the news, that is a part of her belief in kalimat rabiha, she get the news even before marriage, and this is a sign , but " Lam Yamssasni Bashar " doesn't translate N oone touched me, but " I am not married."

brother, I really don't understand what you are trying to say

Who is this "he"?
and which word means "married"?

For sake of debate let us assume that she was saying "how can I bore a Child? when I am not married?

So you agree that she was virgin till that time? or like most of Jews you believe she was having illicit relations with others?
If she was not married till the time of these Ayat and she was not having any illicit relationship as many Jews claim
then she was virgin before the birth of Isaa (As).
Now when the time of birth of Issa (AS) came read from the post of Muhmmad Khan

2191 And the one who protected her chastity, so We blew into her from Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.
"Feeha" means "Into HER"

If the birth of Issa (AS) was through normal process then why say "we made her and her son a sign for the world"?

Again look at Muhammad Khan posting the following Ayat

337 So her Lord accepted her a good acceptance, and made her grow into a good growth, and charged Zachariah with her. Every time Zachariah entered upon her in the temple enclosure, he found provisions with her. He said O Marium, from where did you get this? She said It is from Allah, for Allah provides for whom He wishes without reckoning.

Any one who has to get married or is to bear a child is not Isolated, and Husband is more likely to care of her wife (if there is any) rather than father.

By logic and by common sense both your argument is weak.

loxbox13

loxbox
brother, I really don't understand what you are trying to say

Who is this "he"?
and which word means "married"?

For sake of debate let us assume that she was saying "how can I bore a Child? when I am not married?

So you agree that she was virgin till that time? or like most of Jews you believe she was having illicit relations with others?
If she was not married till the time of these Ayat and she was not having any illicit relationship as many Jews claim
then she was virgin before the birth of Isaa (As).
Now when the time of birth of Issa (AS) came read from the post of Muhmmad Khan

If the birth of Issa (AS) was through normal process then why say "we made her and her son a sign for the world"?

Again look at Muhammad Khan posting the following Ayat
Any one who has to get married or is to bear a child is not Isolated, and Husband is more likely to care of her wife (if there is any) rather than father.

By logic and by common sense both your argument is weak.

If the birth of Issa (AS) was through normal process then why say "we made her and her son a sign for the world"?
They are sign, because she abolished sisterhood, as a nun, and he refuted all religions of birth of a virgin and all the myths that come with it.

the questin, is who is the messenger of god who was talking to her, and who told her i am to give you a child ? if not the husband than who was he ? remember Rouh is command, and rooh never been described as an angel, and god said he send angels and humans as messengers, but rooh is no angel, so who is the messneger of god who spoke to her .?
when she said that she was not married, it's obvious that she was a virgin, but after that the matter was decreed ! what matter ? for her to go through the process, or just get the child like magic ? !!!!!

who was the messenger of god who was speaking to her?

unknownuser

I generaly avoid going into debates. So instead of interpreting I will just post a verse wich to me seems as if Adam didn't have a human father.

359 The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him be and he was.

So it says similar to that of Adam. Not the same since Adam didn't have mothr like Jeus did.

Thanks

loxbox13

I generaly avoid going into debates. So instead of interpreting I will just post a verse wich to me seems as if Adam didn't have a human father.

359 The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him be and he was.

So it says similar to that of Adam. Not the same since Adam didn't have mothr like Jeus did.

Thanks

It's actually the contrary, the verse 359 confirm the opposite of what you're thinking, it confirms that Jesus came from sperm, because sperm if formed from the minerals of the earth that travel into the body through the food to form the sperm. we are all created like adam, from dust and than god gave the command be , and we were. took 9 months process for this Be and We are. read these verses to understand why god said about jesus that he is just like everyone else !

O people, if you are in doubt as to the resurrection, then We have created you from dust, then from a seed, then from an embryo, then from a fetus developed and undeveloped so that We make it clear to you. And We settle in the wombs what We wish to an appointed time, then We bring you out a child 225

He is the One who has created you from dust, then from a seed, then from an embryo, then He brings you out as a child, then He lets you reach your maturity, then you become old; and some of you will have their lives terminated before this; and that you may reach an appointed term, and perhaps so you may comprehend.4060

His friend said to him while discussing with him Have you disbelieved in the One who has created you from dust, then from a seed, then He evolved you into a man? 1837

(&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279
And We have created man from an extract from clay. Then We made him a seed in a safe lodging. Then We created the seed into an embryo, then We created the embryo into a fetus, then We created the fetus into bone, then We covered the bone with flesh, then We brought forth a new creation. So glory be to God, the best of creators. 2312-14

unknownuser

Thanks Loxbox, now that you have shown those verses it is looking mor like you say. But why is it so easy to misintepret? Why be so metaphoric in explanations?

Thanks

huruf

Salaaman LB,

I understand it as follows

Yes she conceive but when Rooh was blown into her/him. I know, you must be thinking why I said her/him, let me explain you my understanding on the same.

Women has XX chromosomes
Men has XY chromosomes

And X + X chromosomes makes a baby girl
And X + Y chromosomes makes a baby boy

When Marium conceives without a touch of a men, she has to give birth to a baby girl because she has only X + X chromosomes. But that was not the case, she gave birth to a baby boy, how?

Allah said

2191

2191 And the one who protected her chastity, so We blew into her from Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.

"Feeha" means "Into HER"

6612

6612 And Mary, daughter of Imran, who maintained the chastity of her private part, so We blew into him/it from Our Spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Books; and she was of those who were dutiful.

"Feehi" means "Into HIM / IT"

I think the "fihi", masculine, refers back to (farj), farj is masculine, so it wuld be We blew into it (her farj).

Salaam

Raaajah

loxbox

If the birth of Issa (AS) was through normal process then why say "we made her and her son a sign for the world"?
They are sign, because she abolished sisterhood, as a nun, and he refuted all religions of birth of a virgin and all the myths that come with it.

brother You are further complicating the things.
Who said the birth of Isaa (AS) was through normal process?
To abolish sister hood is a sign for all the worlds? come on brother take a break.

mmkhan

Salaam huruf,

I think the "fihi", masculine, refers back to (farj), farj is masculine, so it wuld be We blew into it (her farj).

Salaam

I don't think that way cause

... ... 2191

... ... 6612

As per your logic, in 2191 "Feeha" should also refer to "Her Farj", if so, why "Feeha" in 2191 and why "Feehi" in 6612?

May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan

mmkhan

Salaam LB13,

If the birth of Issa (AS) was through normal process then why say "we made her and her son a sign for the world"?
They are sign, because she abolished sisterhood, as a nun, and he refuted all religions of birth of a virgin and all the myths that come with it.

Where did Allah said that Marium was a nun? And even if she was, then how come she became a sign for THE WORLD?

the questin, is who is the messenger of god who was talking to her, and who told her i am to give you a child ? if not the husband than who was he ? remember Rouh is command, and rooh never been described as an angel, and god said he send angels and humans as messengers, but rooh is no angel, so who is the messneger of god who spoke to her .?
when she said that she was not married, it's obvious that she was a virgin, but after that the matter was decreed ! what matter ? for her to go through the process, or just get the child like magic ? !!!!!

who was the messenger of god who was speaking to her?

Brother, just look at 1917 "...arsalnaaa..." means "...We sent...", now translate 1919 "...ana rasoolu rabbiki..." as "...I am the one who was sent from your Lord...", instead of messenger. You may understand it inshaAllah.

And "Rooh" does not mean "Command", but it says "...min amri rabbi..." that means "...from command of my Lord..."

May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan

Jack

Salaam Jack,

Wow! You were suggesting Loxbox to not conclude anything, and you came up with the conclusion 'False' about my post? Good! Now please go through my post again. ;D

May Allah open our hearts to understand the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan

I would, but I am not interested in banging my head against the wall. I understood full well where you were going with your post. You're trying to imply that 359 ONLY implies to Adam and Jesus, when it implies to ALL humans. Are you seriously saying that your idea of "Be," and "It is" is some I dream of Jeannie scenario? God says 'be' and stuff starts popping up everywhere?

If you don't have a reply to the verse I referenced, just say so.

mmkhan

Salaam Jack,

I would, but I am not interested in banging my head against the wall.

No need for that.

I understood full well where you were going with your post. You're trying to imply that 359 ONLY implies to Adam and Jesus, when it implies to ALL humans. Are you seriously saying that your idea of "Be," and "It is" is some I dream of Jeannie scenario? God says 'be' and stuff starts popping up everywhere?

If you don't have a reply to the verse I referenced, just say so.

yes correct , look at the aayat below

359

359 The example of Jesus with Allah is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him Be and he was.

May Allah guide us all to His path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

loxbox13

Salaam Jack,

No need for that.

yes correct , look at the aayat below

359

359 The example of Jesus with Allah is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him Be and he was.

May Allah guide us all to His path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

Hey brother, how are you

look at this verse, this makes the verse about Isa and Adam, is just like anyone else with adam. be and we were

And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the angels Yield to Adam; so they yielded except for Satan, he was not of those who yielded. 711

this verse is another proof that Jesus was created juet like anyone else.

mmkhan

Salaam and hi brother,

I am great by Allah's grace and hope the same for you.

Hey brother, how are you

look at this verse, this makes the verse about Isa and Adam, is just like anyone else with adam. be and we were

And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the angels Yield to Adam; so they yielded except for Satan, he was not of those who yielded. 711

this verse is another proof that Jesus was created juet like anyone else.

I did not see "be and we were" in the aayat quoted brother.

It only says "khalaqnaakum" then "sawwarnaakum" then "asked Malaaika for sajda to Adam". How did you get "be and we were" from this aayat, can you please explain bro?

Thanks

May Allah guide us all towards His path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

huruf

Salaam huruf,

I don't think that way cause

... ... 2191

... ... 6612

As per your logic, in 2191 "Feeha" should also refer to "Her Farj", if so, why "Feeha" in 2191 and why "Feehi" in 6612?

May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan

I am not going to say what you say cannot be, because in principle I think that anything can be, however, I do not find what you say the most convincing, taking the whole, I think that it really can mean in one ayat Maryam the person and in another farjaha, which would be more specific physiologically. In order to be more inclined to the idea you state I would want may be more fingers pointing that way.

Answering PEL

Thanks Loxbox, now that you have shown those verses it is looking mor like you say. But why is it so easy to misintepret? Why be so metaphoric in explanations?

Thanks

May be because what is not explicit is not what is important.

We are haunted by the virginity question. We are so bewitched by it, that we cannot get to the greater picture of the Maryam phenomenon, because we are caught in trappings which may be are not what the Most Wise wants to teach us.

If we get rid of the feminine mystique of virginity and get down to real common life, what the Qur'an is telling us was that Maryam was a single mother, a woman singled out because of something that happens to her that should not happen, that marked her in an abominable way. That she was a believer, a qanita, and she became a mother and was alone. That because of that she suffered and was sustained by the remembrase of God and that under every circumstance, she submitted to the One, the only one, that has a right to our submission.

May be if we were not hypnotized by the mystical "value" of virginity, and concentrated in sincere submission and purity, we would come nearer to the truth, to what we need to know of the truth. ?Do we really need to know whether she was a virgin or not? ?Do we? Why do we have so many ayas of the Qur'an particularly in sura An-nur telling us not to mind other people's business, not to pry into their lives? May be what God wants to teach us has nothing to do with virginity but with simple, questionless, absolute submission to his Might, Mercy, Wisdom, Bounty, Love... Is that not a magnificent, miraculous, inspiring teaching? Do we need to go into Mayam's bedroom? God does not seem to have invited us to it. Suffice that He says she was virtuous and a submitter. Enough.

She was alone and still became a mother. We are all justified, no matter how we came into this existence. Whether our parents wanted us or not, whether our mother was raped or was happy, to our existence it does not matter. And may be God told Maryam that what she received, no matter how or by which agent, was from God. That everything, even that what comes to disrupt our lives and wreak havoc with them comes from Him, and that we must thank Him and TRUST Him, it is our way back to Him, our salvation and redemption. What He orders for us comes from His bounty, even if it hurts, even if it kills us. Submission to God. Islam. Maryam, example for every single Muslim.

And all the food that was from Allah and is mentioned in the Qur'an was spiritual food, and also material food, for , everything is from Allah, no matter what the agent, and that is what Maryam is saying, EVERYTHING is from Allah. And sinc everything is from Allah she lived immersed in Allah.

I think that till we do not get rid of this trapping, virgin or not virgin, we will not get fully what God is teaching us from her example. His son was from God because, everything, absolutely everything in her life was from God.

In a traditional Muslim, and non Muslim world, where many times moral judgement on reproduction comes first instead of submission to God, before turning to God, and trampling the honoured Qur'an, we jump to examine first if the woman was spotless or not, and ?are not today some unfortunate women autmatically suspect of indecency when they are pregnant, and even in certain places, as against other times in history, pregnancy is taken as a proof of zina, which means Maryam, according to that would have been sentenced to stoning? We may say "those people" have gone very far from Qur'an, but aren't we all very far from Qur'an too? Don't we delve too much in things from delving in which we have been sternly and clearly warned by our Sustainer? Don't we believe in His wisdom? Are we bound to absolute knowledge in this world, we powerless creatures? Is our want and need for absolute control not an obsession and a pointless dream? God is the controller, not us.

And we claim virginity for Maryam when if we knew her today we would brand her straight away?

There is in the first aya of An-nisaa a passage where we are told to be conscious of Allah and to be conscious of the wombs. Some people get angry when one takes that literally and say that what that means is be conscious of liens of consanguinity. May be, but that would only be one aspect derived from the wombs, not the whole thing and if God had wanted to say that, surely there are ways to express that meaning without saying "be conscious of the wombs". He chose this form, and we shy away from giving it full import.

I think we should ponder more on these things. Women have less control of their bodies than men when force is applied to them, although all are subject to being forced, but may be we are warned, warned plenty, but we hide behind things like virginity and spend centuries pondering whether Maryam was a virgin or not. ?Is that really important? God did not want to make tht clear to us.

What the Qur'an tells us of her seems to say that other things are important and hides the fact of her virginity or lack of it, because it is not important. He is the Wise.

Alhandulil-lah, rabb el 3alamin, Al hayy al qayyum.

Salaam

loxbox13