Jesus, Virgin Births, Miracles, Symbolisms.
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Salaam Jack,
Wow! You were suggesting Loxbox to not conclude anything, and you came up with the conclusion 'False' about my post? Good! Now please go through my post again. ;D
May Allah open our hearts to understand the truth pr
Mohammed M. KhanI would, but I am not interested in banging my head against the wall. I understood full well where you were going with your post. You're trying to imply that 359 ONLY implies to Adam and Jesus, when it implies to ALL humans. Are you seriously saying that your idea of "Be," and "It is" is some I dream of Jeannie scenario? God says 'be' and stuff starts popping up everywhere?
If you don't have a reply to the verse I referenced, just say so.
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Salaam Jack,
I would, but I am not interested in banging my head against the wall.
No need for that.
I understood full well where you were going with your post. You're trying to imply that 359 ONLY implies to Adam and Jesus, when it implies to ALL humans. Are you seriously saying that your idea of "Be," and "It is" is some I dream of Jeannie scenario? God says 'be' and stuff starts popping up everywhere?
If you don't have a reply to the verse I referenced, just say so.
yes correct , look at the aayat below
359
359 The example of Jesus with Allah is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him Be and he was.
May Allah guide us all to His path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaam Jack,
No need for that.
yes correct , look at the aayat below
359
359 The example of Jesus with Allah is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him Be and he was.
May Allah guide us all to His path pr
Mohammed M. KhanHey brother, how are you
look at this verse, this makes the verse about Isa and Adam, is just like anyone else with adam. be and we were
And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the angels Yield to Adam; so they yielded except for Satan, he was not of those who yielded. 711
this verse is another proof that Jesus was created juet like anyone else.
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Salaam and hi brother,
I am great by Allah's grace and hope the same for you.
Hey brother, how are you
look at this verse, this makes the verse about Isa and Adam, is just like anyone else with adam. be and we were
And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the angels Yield to Adam; so they yielded except for Satan, he was not of those who yielded. 711
this verse is another proof that Jesus was created juet like anyone else.
I did not see "be and we were" in the aayat quoted brother.
It only says "khalaqnaakum" then "sawwarnaakum" then "asked Malaaika for sajda to Adam". How did you get "be and we were" from this aayat, can you please explain bro?
Thanks
May Allah guide us all towards His path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaam huruf,
I don't think that way cause
... ... 2191
... ... 6612
As per your logic, in 2191 "Feeha" should also refer to "Her Farj", if so, why "Feeha" in 2191 and why "Feehi" in 6612?
May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. KhanI am not going to say what you say cannot be, because in principle I think that anything can be, however, I do not find what you say the most convincing, taking the whole, I think that it really can mean in one ayat Maryam the person and in another farjaha, which would be more specific physiologically. In order to be more inclined to the idea you state I would want may be more fingers pointing that way.
Answering PEL
Thanks Loxbox, now that you have shown those verses it is looking mor like you say. But why is it so easy to misintepret? Why be so metaphoric in explanations?
Thanks
May be because what is not explicit is not what is important.
We are haunted by the virginity question. We are so bewitched by it, that we cannot get to the greater picture of the Maryam phenomenon, because we are caught in trappings which may be are not what the Most Wise wants to teach us.
If we get rid of the feminine mystique of virginity and get down to real common life, what the Qur'an is telling us was that Maryam was a single mother, a woman singled out because of something that happens to her that should not happen, that marked her in an abominable way. That she was a believer, a qanita, and she became a mother and was alone. That because of that she suffered and was sustained by the remembrase of God and that under every circumstance, she submitted to the One, the only one, that has a right to our submission.
May be if we were not hypnotized by the mystical "value" of virginity, and concentrated in sincere submission and purity, we would come nearer to the truth, to what we need to know of the truth. ?Do we really need to know whether she was a virgin or not? ?Do we? Why do we have so many ayas of the Qur'an particularly in sura An-nur telling us not to mind other people's business, not to pry into their lives? May be what God wants to teach us has nothing to do with virginity but with simple, questionless, absolute submission to his Might, Mercy, Wisdom, Bounty, Love... Is that not a magnificent, miraculous, inspiring teaching? Do we need to go into Mayam's bedroom? God does not seem to have invited us to it. Suffice that He says she was virtuous and a submitter. Enough.
She was alone and still became a mother. We are all justified, no matter how we came into this existence. Whether our parents wanted us or not, whether our mother was raped or was happy, to our existence it does not matter. And may be God told Maryam that what she received, no matter how or by which agent, was from God. That everything, even that what comes to disrupt our lives and wreak havoc with them comes from Him, and that we must thank Him and TRUST Him, it is our way back to Him, our salvation and redemption. What He orders for us comes from His bounty, even if it hurts, even if it kills us. Submission to God. Islam. Maryam, example for every single Muslim.
And all the food that was from Allah and is mentioned in the Qur'an was spiritual food, and also material food, for , everything is from Allah, no matter what the agent, and that is what Maryam is saying, EVERYTHING is from Allah. And sinc everything is from Allah she lived immersed in Allah.
I think that till we do not get rid of this trapping, virgin or not virgin, we will not get fully what God is teaching us from her example. His son was from God because, everything, absolutely everything in her life was from God.
In a traditional Muslim, and non Muslim world, where many times moral judgement on reproduction comes first instead of submission to God, before turning to God, and trampling the honoured Qur'an, we jump to examine first if the woman was spotless or not, and ?are not today some unfortunate women autmatically suspect of indecency when they are pregnant, and even in certain places, as against other times in history, pregnancy is taken as a proof of zina, which means Maryam, according to that would have been sentenced to stoning? We may say "those people" have gone very far from Qur'an, but aren't we all very far from Qur'an too? Don't we delve too much in things from delving in which we have been sternly and clearly warned by our Sustainer? Don't we believe in His wisdom? Are we bound to absolute knowledge in this world, we powerless creatures? Is our want and need for absolute control not an obsession and a pointless dream? God is the controller, not us.
And we claim virginity for Maryam when if we knew her today we would brand her straight away?
There is in the first aya of An-nisaa a passage where we are told to be conscious of Allah and to be conscious of the wombs. Some people get angry when one takes that literally and say that what that means is be conscious of liens of consanguinity. May be, but that would only be one aspect derived from the wombs, not the whole thing and if God had wanted to say that, surely there are ways to express that meaning without saying "be conscious of the wombs". He chose this form, and we shy away from giving it full import.
I think we should ponder more on these things. Women have less control of their bodies than men when force is applied to them, although all are subject to being forced, but may be we are warned, warned plenty, but we hide behind things like virginity and spend centuries pondering whether Maryam was a virgin or not. ?Is that really important? God did not want to make tht clear to us.
What the Qur'an tells us of her seems to say that other things are important and hides the fact of her virginity or lack of it, because it is not important. He is the Wise.
Alhandulil-lah, rabb el 3alamin, Al hayy al qayyum.
Salaam
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I am not going to say what you say cannot be, because in principle I think that anything can be, however, I do not find what you say the most convincing, taking the whole, I think that it really can mean in one ayat Maryam the person and in another farjaha, which would be more specific physiologically. In order to be more inclined to the idea you state I would want may be more fingers pointing that way.
Answering PEL
May be because what is not explicit is not what is important.
We are haunted by the virginity question. We are so bewitched by it, that we cannot get to the greater picture of the Maryam phenomenon, because we are caught in trappings which may be are not what the Most Wise wants to teach us.
If we get rid of the feminine mystique of virginity and get down to real common life, what the Qur'an is telling us was that Maryam was a single mother, a woman singled out because of something that happens to her that should not happen, that marked her in an abominable way. That she was a believer, a qanita, and she became a mother and was alone. That because of that she suffered and was sustained by the remembrase of God and that under every circumstance, she submitted to the One, the only one, that has a right to our submission.
May be if we were not hypnotized by the mystical "value" of virginity, and concentrated in sincere submission and purity, we would come nearer to the truth, to what we need to know of the truth. ?Do we really need to know whether she was a virgin or not? ?Do we? Why do we have so many ayas of the Qur'an particularly in sura An-nur telling us not to mind other people's business, not to pry into their lives? May be what God wants to teach us has nothing to do with virginity but with simple, questionless, absolute submission to his Might, Mercy, Wisdom, Bounty, Love... Is that not a magnificent, miraculous, inspiring teaching? Do we need to go into Mayam's bedroom? God does not seem to have invited us to it. Suffice that He says she was virtuous and a submitter. Enough.
She was alone and still became a mother. We are all justified, no matter how we came into this existence. Whether our parents wanted us or not, whether our mother was raped or was happy, to our existence it does not matter. And may be God told Maryam that what she received, no matter how or by which agent, was from God. That everything, even that what comes to disrupt our lives and wreak havoc with them comes from Him, and that we must thank Him and TRUST Him, it is our way back to Him, our salvation and redemption. What He orders for us comes from His bounty, even if it hurts, even if it kills us. Submission to God. Islam. Maryam, example for every single Muslim.
And all the food that was from Allah and is mentioned in the Qur'an was spiritual food, and also material food, for , everything is from Allah, no matter what the agent, and that is what Maryam is saying, EVERYTHING is from Allah. And sinc everything is from Allah she lived immersed in Allah.
I think that till we do not get rid of this trapping, virgin or not virgin, we will not get fully what God is teaching us from her example. His son was from God because, everything, absolutely everything in her life was from God.
In a traditional Muslim, and non Muslim world, where many times moral judgement on reproduction comes first instead of submission to God, before turning to God, and trampling the honoured Qur'an, we jump to examine first if the woman was spotless or not, and ?are not today some unfortunate women autmatically suspect of indecency when they are pregnant, and even in certain places, as against other times in history, pregnancy is taken as a proof of zina, which means Maryam, according to that would have been sentenced to stoning? We may say "those people" have gone very far from Qur'an, but aren't we all very far from Qur'an too? Don't we delve too much in things from delving in which we have been sternly and clearly warned by our Sustainer? Don't we believe in His wisdom? Are we bound to absolute knowledge in this world, we powerless creatures? Is our want and need for absolute control not an obsession and a pointless dream? God is the controller, not us.
And we claim virginity for Maryam when if we knew her today we would brand her straight away?
There is in the first aya of An-nisaa a passage where we are told to be conscious of Allah and to be conscious of the wombs. Some people get angry when one takes that literally and say that what that means is be conscious of liens of consanguinity. May be, but that would only be one aspect derived from the wombs, not the whole thing and if God had wanted to say that, surely there are ways to express that meaning without saying "be conscious of the wombs". He chose this form, and we shy away from giving it full import.
I think we should ponder more on these things. Women have less control of their bodies than men when force is applied to them, although all are subject to being forced, but may be we are warned, warned plenty, but we hide behind things like virginity and spend centuries pondering whether Maryam was a virgin or not. ?Is that really important? God did not want to make tht clear to us.
What the Qur'an tells us of her seems to say that other things are important and hides the fact of her virginity or lack of it, because it is not important. He is the Wise.
Alhandulil-lah, rabb el 3alamin, Al hayy al qayyum.
Salaam
Good article, you're right, people can read she was a virgin even though there is nothing in Mariam about virginity, it's the influence and magic of this story that get into the minds since childhood.
ant=yway, you getmy attentuin to sourah anissa verse 1
this verse about the woumb is about justice. the quranic state is responsible for the nutrition of the foetus , the foetus of a poor woman must eat the same way and equally with the foetus that is in the womb of a rich woman, and the state under the quran is responsible for this equality.
this verse say itaqou allah, and what is in the woubs, and after that talks about justice for the orphins etc...people never think that god's justice is amazing, justice between foetuses in the woumbs.
The quran is amazing, no human can think this way. or can think of this kind of justice. -
Good article, you're right, people can read she was a virgin even though there is nothing in Mariam about virginity, it's the influence and magic of this story that get into the minds since childhood.
ant=yway, you getmy attentuin to sourah anissa verse 1
this verse about the woumb is about justice. the quranic state is responsible for the nutrition of the foetus , the foetus of a poor woman must eat the same way and equally with the foetus that is in the womb of a rich woman, and the state under the quran is responsible for this equality.
this verse say itaqou allah, and what is in the woubs, and after that talks about justice for the orphins etc...people never think that god's justice is amazing, justice between foetuses in the woumbs.
The quran is amazing, no human can think this way. or can think of this kind of justice.I think that if God wanted to refer to the fetuses exclusively He would have pointed that way. In fact it is very short and clear and it says, to be conscious of God with Whom you claim from one anothe (plural) and of the wombs. I do not think we should restrict the meaning, because any way you look there are very significant lessons for us. The one you mention is important and meaningful, but it is not the only one.
It comes to mind when dealing with Maryam, because it illustrates the very fact that she did nothing to become pregnant nor to put herself in such situation, at least nothing is said to indicate that in the Qur'an, as many women have done nothing to put themselves in that situation, be it within wedlock or outside wedlock. Rape eminently comes to mind. There are other ways, but rape is the most clear. It is very important because it is a perfect show of lack of control of one's life. This kind of loss of control is unique to women, it is maybe the most eloquent example of it, but it is not the only one, and all human kind can experience that abolute powerlesness, arbitraryness, violence, deception... and your life has changed, you are like a nutshell in the gale. And look at Maryam and how she reacts...
Wombs, like everything in this world is a trial for our sense of taqwa. Do we fear God to wreak havoc in a woman's life, in a person's life, because we want to feel powerful, and doubtless raping a woman and upsetting her life is a proof of power? But, ends the aya 4.1 inna al-laha kaana 3alaikum raqiban. For God ever watches you. And, I add, power and might are His, and everything is under His power and might, if we go around proving our Might, we are defying God to prove His to us, and when we defy God...
Salaam
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This absurd claim of Hazrat Mariam not being Virgin is strongly advocated by Jews and initiated by them, later on adopted by some sects of Christians and Now so called Muslims;
Who keep on blind eye towards the verses presented and explanation given by many here.http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/Mary1927-28.GIF
Thereby she came along with him to her nation/people in the state she was physically carrying him.
They said, "O Maryam, of course you have come exposing an unexpected/strange/amazing thing;O you the sister of Haruen, your father was not a bad man and nor your mother was debauch"
Please ponder on the words "amazing" and your father was "not a bad man" and your mother not "unchaste"...
These verses clearly tell the whole story and if some still believes that She was not virgin then we can pray to Allah. -
This absurd claim of Hazrat Mariam not being Virgin is strongly advocated by Jews and initiated by them, later on adopted by some sects of Christians and Now so called Muslims;
Who keep on blind eye towards the verses presented and explanation given by many here.http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/Mary1927-28.GIF
Thereby she came along with him to her nation/people in the state she was physically carrying him.
They said, "O Maryam, of course you have come exposing an unexpected/strange/amazing thing;O you the sister of Haruen, your father was not a bad man and nor your mother was debauch"
Please ponder on the words "amazing" and your father was "not a bad man" and your mother not "unchaste"...
These verses clearly tell the whole story and if some still believes that She was not virgin then we can pray to Allah.The father of Isa was Unknown to the Rabbis, that is why they accused her !
the husband of Miriam propably died, or left her , Allah knows how did it happened, but there was a messenger of god speaking to her, who came to her with the command. and they had conversation.
sister of Haroun, this verse is just telling us that Miriam and Isa , are not Mary and Jesus of 2000 years ago, but it was the sister of Aaron and Moussa. , Isa is the nefew of Moussa, and Isa is three thousand years ago. and not 2000 years ago. -
The father of Isa was Unknown to the Rabbis, that is why they accused her !
the husband of Miriam propably died, or left her , Allah knows how did it happened,Then What a story build on conjecture and hearsay by you!
They are exactly the same.
You just keep following the stories like Mary was married to Joseph the carpenter
she was married to Joseph as a wife and after Christ he had normal relations with her and produced four sons names Jacob (called James) Judah or Jude, Simon and Joseph who was named after him. Mariam was the mother of Christ. Maria was his auntie who married Clophas. She also had a number of children including James the lesser or Little James (Jacob). They were all younger than Christ, which is the reason Mariam was placed in the care of John at the Crucifixion. Jacob called James by us wrote the book of James and chaired the Acts conference, being bishop of Jerusalem. He was martyred in 63 CE. He was succeeded by Symeon his and Christs cousin. Jude wrote the book of that name in the Bible. The story of their family is told in the paper The Virgin Mariam and the Family of Jesus Christ (No. 232). -
Then What a story build on conjecture and hearsay by you!
They are exactly the same.
You just keep following the stories like Mary was married to Joseph the carpenter
she was married to Joseph as a wife and after Christ he had normal relations with her and produced four sons names Jacob (called James) Judah or Jude, Simon and Joseph who was named after him. Mariam was the mother of Christ. Maria was his auntie who married Clophas. She also had a number of children including James the lesser or Little James (Jacob). They were all younger than Christ, which is the reason Mariam was placed in the care of John at the Crucifixion. Jacob called James by us wrote the book of James and chaired the Acts conference, being bishop of Jerusalem. He was martyred in 63 CE. He was succeeded by Symeon his and Christs cousin. Jude wrote the book of that name in the Bible. The story of their family is told in the paper The Virgin Mariam and the Family of Jesus Christ (No. 232).I don't believe a bit of the biography of prophet mohamed written by hearesay, and you want me to believe in the mumbo jumbo story of Jesus written also by hearesay !!!
Isa is not Jesus , it's as simple as that. -
The unprecedented birth of Easa alahissalam is so unimbiguously mentioned in Grand Qur'aan that except pseudo intellectuals none misses the fact. Syeda Maryam had also the same perception and understanding that a son is born to a woman only when she "meets" a man. This is what is called the perception of causality.
Here is the statement of Qur'aan in sequence about this epidsode, in Urdu, which I have pasted from my InPage pages.
a sample page
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/URDU%20ARTICLES%20INDEX/Jesus%20Return/Virgin.gif
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hope4,
The weak edifice of pazzazu's argument is built on the conjecture that Haroon(AS) was the same Haroon(AS) who was brother of Musa (AS).
If she was the sister of Musa(AS) why not call her sister of MUsa(AS) instead of sister of Haroon?Sorry but not buying this one.
In addition to that an excellent read is the page referred by Mazhar Sahib.
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hope4,
The weak edifice of pazzazu's argument is built on the conjecture that Haroon(AS) was the same Haroon(AS) who was brother of Musa (AS).
If she was the sister of Musa(AS) why not call her sister of MUsa(AS) instead of sister of Haroon?Sorry but not buying this one.
In addition to that an excellent read is the page referred by Mazhar Sahib.
Moussa was a messengerat the qge of 40 , and he prayed for his brtother to be a prophet wih him, so imagine, Haroun was older or younger than Moussa ? if al mesenger were attributed the mission at the age 40 , than Haroun must be over 40, therefore older than moussa, and of course, Miriam is sister of Haroun because he was the elder of the family.
you are juging everyone is worong because they don't comply with your belief, and calling everyone else conjoncture, whine pretending you're the only one who is speaking with proof, even though, you can't prouve that miriam was virgin, except you interpreting therefore your conjocture
one think is for sure, the quran didn't say Isa didn't have a biological father, and didn't say Miriam was virgine when conceived, except in interpretations.Allah knows best
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Moussa was a messengerat the qge of 40 , and he prayed for his brtother to be a prophet wih him, so imagine, Haroun was older or younger than Moussa ? if al mesenger were attributed the mission at the age 40 , than Haroun must be over 40, therefore older than moussa, and of course, Miriam is sister of Haroun because he was the elder of the family.
Your above quote is great example of what I am saying?
Mussa (AS) = 40
Imagine=younger or older
thus Miriam is sister of HarounHence proved. hmm
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http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestal_Virgin
Which sort of virgin are we talking about?
http//www.kornbluthphoto.com/images/Messalina.jpg
Messalina & Britannicushttp//www.commercialdivingmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/dive-in-alexandria-212x300.jpg
(Incidentally, I think this may be a male holding the child. Of course that could very well be a lie.
It comes from the ruins of Alexandria, c. Cleopatra VII.) -
Here is a symbol.
http//tars.rollins.edu/Foreign_Lang/Russian/sinsav.jpg
It is a Hindu mudra.