Polygamy - Time to settle the issue
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Noon
412
and for you (each individual; 2nd person) half what left your spouses
and for them (i.e. all wives; 3rd person) the fourth from what you leftWrong. is plural. So the verse says and for you all(plural) is half of what is left from your pairs.
And for them is the fourth what you (plural you) left.Show where 4 is a limit
You said that the limit of spouses were four right?
g.
woman is married and how would next guy marry her?Just like a woman would marry a married man. What's the problem here bro?
Peace
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Wrong. is plural. So the verse says and for you all(plural) is half of what is left from your pairs.
And for them is the fourth what you (plural you) left.You said that the limit of spouses were four right?
g.
Just like a woman would marry a married man. What's the problem here bro?Peace
Peace Maha,
?And for you? ? address is to every individual not ?and for you all collectively.?
Otherwise the entire male community would get 1/2 if no child and 1/4 if son.412 and for you (all individually not collectively) half what left your spouse?s
Whereas for wives it is collectively if more than one and we know verses point to multiple wives.
412 and for them (collectively not each individually) the fourth from what you left
Again, what you promote is unlimited women and men all married to each other.
Hence renders verses pointless on marriage, divorce, waiting, inheritance, etc...Peace
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Peace Noon waalqalami,
The biggest indicator for me besides 4.24, is that an interim period cannot be fulfilled at the advent of divorce, if a woman is married to other men at that time. She will continue to engage in sexual relations with other men, and this could defeat the purpose of that waiting time.
Oh, and here is some FYI for all who are interested Paternity tests aren't always reliable.
http//www.dna-geneticconnections.com/dna_accuracy.html
http//www.truthaboutdeception.com/community-features/ask-an-expert/questions-by-topic/relationship-issues/867-how-accurate-is-paternity-testing.html
No test out there is 100% accurate. I suppose we'll just go ahead and mess up a child's life anyway, by utilizing a test, that has the potential of being wrong. Oh, and this test is not cheap by any means. Wonder where all that money for the test is going to come from... hmm
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'The vulnerable/isolated/jaded'. According to context, at all those instances, it only makes sense if the meaning is taken as 'The fatherless children', or 'The orphans'. However, in 's first half, it doesn't use 'Yatama' as a noun, but a descriptive word, like, it describes what follows it, and what follows it is 'An Nisa', this, has been used as a definite noun, as it has 'Al' in the beginning. Like in a phrase has been used 'Azab Al Khizy', where 'Al Khizy' means 'The disgrace' or the concept of disgrace, while 'Azab' means 'Punishment', which means 'Punishment of the disgrace', in other words, 'The disgrace' in the form of torture. Similarly. here it means 'Isolated/Vulnerable of the women', or in other words, women who are vulnerable/jaded, or at least that's what I think Abdul Mannan Omar is trying to say. If it was 'Al Yatama An Nisa', then I'm sure neither he, nor I would have thought about interpreting it this way, since then Yatama would itself be a noun, rendering this interpretation illogical. I've also taken a look at what Mazhar has done at Haqeeqat.org.pk, and even he has translated it as 'Orphan lonely women', which seems like he is also agreeing that 'Orphan lonely' is an adjective that describes a type of women (Though I'd like it if he'd pay us a visit and clear up what he thinks).
I am sorry I had not studied this thread earlier.
It is a Possessive Phrase. First Noun of Possessive Phrase never takes definite article nor is ever in abslute state, i.e. tanween at the end. The reason being that it derives its definiteness from the second Possessive Noun. So the First Noun is Definite, denoting "The Orphan". Since the second Noun is definite it means "the women". A woman is orphan so long she is lonely-unmarried-the moment she is married after having attained marriagable maturity, she is no more an orphan. Her identity changes. She becomes a "mohisna"; protected lady by bond of Nikah.
A Yateem is one whose father has died while he/she has not attained strengthen maturity-marriagable age. Vulnerability might be its effect, but not its meanings. -
I am sorry I had not studied this thread earlier.
It is a Possessive Phrase. First Noun of Possessive Phrase never takes definite article nor is ever in abslute state, i.e. tanween at the end. The reason being that it derives its definiteness from the second Possessive Noun. So the First Noun is Definite, denoting "The Orphan". Since the second Noun is definite it means "the women". A woman is orphan so long she is lonely-unmarried-the moment she is married after having attained marriagable maturity, she is no more an orphan. Her identity changes. She becomes a "mohisna"; protected lady by bond of Nikah.
A Yateem is one whose father has died while he/she has not attained strengthen maturity-marriagable age. Vulnerability might be its effect, but not its meanings.Thanks Mazhar for taking part in this thread, though this issue was resolved, no need to apologize btw. I'm sorry but can you explain what you mean by 'The First Noun is Definite'? Cause I don't see any Al with Yatama, while you say its translated as 'The Orphans' ??? And can you slightly simplify your answer, I mean, is it 'Orphans belonging to women' or 'Orphan women' as in a woman who is lonely/unmarried?
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Possessive Phrase-"the Construct"
Annexed, attached, or possessed And second Noun is termed as "Annexer", or "Possessor"
We are familiar with the Possessives in English like "my, their, etc" and possessive clitic "-'s". in Arabic represents primarily the association of one Noun with another Noun.
- The noun that is possessed comes first, and is called meaning "additive", "attached", "annexed", "appendix";
** The noun that is the possessor comes second/after, and is called ;
*** The first and the second noun worry about their own gender and plurality.
**** If the second noun is definite, the first noun derives its definiteness from the second noun.
***** Since the first noun derives its definiteness from the second definite noun, therefore, in possessive phrase the first noun will never have definite article and nor "nunation/ .
****** The that is the suffix for duality and masculine sound plurality will also drop.******* The first noun, whatever its grammatical state may be, which is determined by external factors, it will always render the second noun in the genitive case.
- The noun that is possessed comes first, and is called meaning "additive", "attached", "annexed", "appendix";
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Possessive Phrase-"the Construct"
Annexed, attached, or possessed And second Noun is termed as "Annexer", or "Possessor"
We are familiar with the Possessives in English like "my, their, etc" and possessive clitic "-'s". in Arabic represents primarily the association of one Noun with another Noun.
- The noun that is possessed comes first, and is called meaning "additive", "attached", "annexed", "appendix";
** The noun that is the possessor comes second/after, and is called ;
*** The first and the second noun worry about their own gender and plurality.
**** If the second noun is definite, the first noun derives its definiteness from the second noun.
***** Since the first noun derives its definiteness from the second definite noun, therefore, in possessive phrase the first noun will never have definite article and nor "nunation/ .
****** The that is the suffix for duality and masculine sound plurality will also drop.******* The first noun, whatever its grammatical state may be, which is determined by external factors, it will always render the second noun in the genitive case.
ah...........I see...thanks a lot
- The noun that is possessed comes first, and is called meaning "additive", "attached", "annexed", "appendix";
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Peace Fallen Angel and Mazhar,
Can you please break this down into simpler terms for me? I don't understand the Arabic that you have typed.
What I have understood is this the first noun is possessed by the second noun? As in the orphans belong to the women?
Have I understood this correctly?
What is the final consensus that the two of you hold in regard to this?
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Peace Fallen Angel and Mazhar,
Can you please break this down into simpler terms for me? I don't understand the Arabic that you have typed.
What I have understood is this the first noun is possessed by the second noun? As in the orphans belong to the women?
Have I understood this correctly?
What is the final consensus that the two of you hold in regard to this?
You have understood correctly, basically Mazhar has quite efficiently answered my objections to the interpretation, I said that Yatama didn't come in a definite form, and he cleared it up, that it can't come in the definite noun form due to being possessed. The final consensus between us is I guess that the well known interpretation, that it means, 'Orphans belonging to women' is correct.
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Noon
Peace Maha,
?And for you? ? address is to every individual not ?and for you all collectively.?
Otherwise the entire male community would get 1/2 if no child and 1/4 if son.is plural. is to an individual.
It doesnt even adress any specifik gender. is plural and can be used to both males and females.
Yes the entire community would get 1/2 from their pairs.
Whereas for wives it is collectively if more than one and we know verses point to multiple wives
No we dont know that these verses point to multiple wives, its something you assume .
Again, what you promote is unlimited women and men all married to each other.
Hence renders verses pointless on marriage, divorce, waiting, inheritance, etcYou also promote group marriages, so its the same thing.
Peace
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You have understood correctly, basically Mazhar has quite efficiently answered my objections to the interpretation, I said that Yatama didn't come in a definite form, and he cleared it up, that it can't come in the definite noun form due to being possessed. The final consensus between us is I guess that the well known interpretation, that it means, 'Orphans belonging to women' is correct.
Sorry, it is not like that. The red shows as if they are two entities. Possessive Phrase does not necessarily mean literal "possession" but as I indicated "relationship-association" also. It denotes "the women whose father has died". After it is the adjectival clause about these women by a plural relative pronoun.
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Sorry, it is not like that. The red shows as if they are two entities. Possessive Phrase does not necessarily mean literal "possession" but as I indicated "relationship-association" also. It denotes "the women whose father has died". After it is the adjectival clause about these women by a plural relative pronoun.
lol, I knew something like this was coming, that's why I added 'I guess' in my reply. Anyway, now its clear, though in your site, you cite 411 as a link to this part, as this verse in the beginning does mention that its contents have been recited prior to its revelation, however, all 411 discusses are the inheritance laws, what does that have anything to do with this part?
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lol, I knew something like this was coming, that's why I added 'I guess' in my reply. Anyway, now its clear, though in your site, you cite 411 as a link to this part, as this verse in the beginning does mention that its contents have been recited prior to its revelation, however, all 411 discusses are the inheritance laws, what does that have anything to do with this part?
Perhaps you are referring to this mention "". It is against the last sentence of Ayah 424, not for all.
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I'm referring to this part
about orphan lonely women whom you do not give what is written for them and you desire that you may take them into Nikah ;
In the brackets you cite 411, can you explain that part?
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I'm referring to this part
about orphan lonely women whom you do not give what is written for them and you desire that you may take them into Nikah ;
In the brackets you cite 411, can you explain that part?
Yatim women is not being given what is allocated for her in 411; and above it one wants to marry her. What for? Objective of retaining her property conveniently achieved. If she gets married to someone else, retaining property might become a difficult proposition.
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Peace
This is where I disagree. In regard to 4.3, I see it as the literal as in the orphans being the possessions of the women. Women can be considered orphaned as well, of course. However, due to the fact that this is pertaining to the "yatama" which is gender masculine, I can only deduce that it is referring to orphaned children belonging to the women. The yatama can be made up both male and female children.
Also, this interpretation does not make sense to me because later, there is discussion in regard to the orphans' level of maturity as well. Obviously, only mature women can marry, so "yatama" cannot fluctuate in meaning throughout the chapter so much.
It's a matter of whether one wants to take the literal meaning (which is what I think makes the most sense in this regard), or take on a adjectival meaning instead.
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Peace Released,
um.............we weren't discussing 43, we're talking about 4127's Yatamannisa )
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Yatim women is not being given what is allocated for her in 411; and above it one wants to marry her. What for? Objective of retaining her property conveniently achieved. If she gets married to someone else, retaining property might become a difficult proposition.
That's my question, How do you determine that it is what is decreed in 411 that is not being given to her? How did you come to the conclusion that it refers to 411?
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Peace
Oh whoops!!! ;D
We're not talking about 4.3 at all, correct?
Okay, so we're referring to this verse
4127 Wayastaftoonaka fee alnnisa-iquli Allahu yufteekum feehinna wama yutlaAAalaykum fee alkitabi fee yatama alnnisa-iallatee la tu/toonahunna ma kutiba lahunnawatarghaboona an tankihoohunna waalmustadAAafeenamina alwildani waan taqoomoo lilyatama bialqistiwama tafAAaloo min khayrin fa-inna Allaha kanabihi AAaleeman
when we talk about the orphaned women, correct? Is this the verse Mazhar is talking about in regard to the "orphaned women" as opposed to "orphans belonging to the women"?