Polygamy - Time to settle the issue
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Noon
Peace Maha,
?And for you? ? address is to every individual not ?and for you all collectively.?
Otherwise the entire male community would get 1/2 if no child and 1/4 if son.is plural. is to an individual.
It doesnt even adress any specifik gender. is plural and can be used to both males and females.
Yes the entire community would get 1/2 from their pairs.
Whereas for wives it is collectively if more than one and we know verses point to multiple wives
No we dont know that these verses point to multiple wives, its something you assume .
Again, what you promote is unlimited women and men all married to each other.
Hence renders verses pointless on marriage, divorce, waiting, inheritance, etcYou also promote group marriages, so its the same thing.
Peace
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You have understood correctly, basically Mazhar has quite efficiently answered my objections to the interpretation, I said that Yatama didn't come in a definite form, and he cleared it up, that it can't come in the definite noun form due to being possessed. The final consensus between us is I guess that the well known interpretation, that it means, 'Orphans belonging to women' is correct.
Sorry, it is not like that. The red shows as if they are two entities. Possessive Phrase does not necessarily mean literal "possession" but as I indicated "relationship-association" also. It denotes "the women whose father has died". After it is the adjectival clause about these women by a plural relative pronoun.
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Sorry, it is not like that. The red shows as if they are two entities. Possessive Phrase does not necessarily mean literal "possession" but as I indicated "relationship-association" also. It denotes "the women whose father has died". After it is the adjectival clause about these women by a plural relative pronoun.
lol, I knew something like this was coming, that's why I added 'I guess' in my reply. Anyway, now its clear, though in your site, you cite 411 as a link to this part, as this verse in the beginning does mention that its contents have been recited prior to its revelation, however, all 411 discusses are the inheritance laws, what does that have anything to do with this part?
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lol, I knew something like this was coming, that's why I added 'I guess' in my reply. Anyway, now its clear, though in your site, you cite 411 as a link to this part, as this verse in the beginning does mention that its contents have been recited prior to its revelation, however, all 411 discusses are the inheritance laws, what does that have anything to do with this part?
Perhaps you are referring to this mention "". It is against the last sentence of Ayah 424, not for all.
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I'm referring to this part
about orphan lonely women whom you do not give what is written for them and you desire that you may take them into Nikah ;
In the brackets you cite 411, can you explain that part?
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I'm referring to this part
about orphan lonely women whom you do not give what is written for them and you desire that you may take them into Nikah ;
In the brackets you cite 411, can you explain that part?
Yatim women is not being given what is allocated for her in 411; and above it one wants to marry her. What for? Objective of retaining her property conveniently achieved. If she gets married to someone else, retaining property might become a difficult proposition.
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Peace
This is where I disagree. In regard to 4.3, I see it as the literal as in the orphans being the possessions of the women. Women can be considered orphaned as well, of course. However, due to the fact that this is pertaining to the "yatama" which is gender masculine, I can only deduce that it is referring to orphaned children belonging to the women. The yatama can be made up both male and female children.
Also, this interpretation does not make sense to me because later, there is discussion in regard to the orphans' level of maturity as well. Obviously, only mature women can marry, so "yatama" cannot fluctuate in meaning throughout the chapter so much.
It's a matter of whether one wants to take the literal meaning (which is what I think makes the most sense in this regard), or take on a adjectival meaning instead.
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Peace Released,
um.............we weren't discussing 43, we're talking about 4127's Yatamannisa )
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Yatim women is not being given what is allocated for her in 411; and above it one wants to marry her. What for? Objective of retaining her property conveniently achieved. If she gets married to someone else, retaining property might become a difficult proposition.
That's my question, How do you determine that it is what is decreed in 411 that is not being given to her? How did you come to the conclusion that it refers to 411?
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Peace
Oh whoops!!! ;D
We're not talking about 4.3 at all, correct?
Okay, so we're referring to this verse
4127 Wayastaftoonaka fee alnnisa-iquli Allahu yufteekum feehinna wama yutlaAAalaykum fee alkitabi fee yatama alnnisa-iallatee la tu/toonahunna ma kutiba lahunnawatarghaboona an tankihoohunna waalmustadAAafeenamina alwildani waan taqoomoo lilyatama bialqistiwama tafAAaloo min khayrin fa-inna Allaha kanabihi AAaleeman
when we talk about the orphaned women, correct? Is this the verse Mazhar is talking about in regard to the "orphaned women" as opposed to "orphans belonging to the women"?
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That's my question, How do you determine that it is what is decreed in 411 that is not being given to her? How did you come to the conclusion that it refers to 411?
Red is the adjectival description of those father-orphaned women. What is not given to them which is allocated for them? Is it except the inheritance which is prescribed for them in 411?
I hope it will satisfy the querry of Released also. is plural feminine relative pronoun which is adjectival description of those "father-orphaned women". I am coining this "father orphaned" because perhaps orphan denotes a child whose parents are both dead.
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Peace Mazhar,
Can you please include the transliteration as well? I cannot read Arabic very well at all..am learning at the age of 26 without any formal instruction. I am really confused now Firstly, I am confused as to whether we are even talking about 4.3 specifically, or are we talking about 4.127..or something else. Can you explain how what you've deduced relates to the question we have in relation to 4.3? I am really having difficulty following
Also, if you can please break it down into small steps..this will help me. Oh, and please highlight the parts of the transliteration that are important for understanding, as this will also help. Thank you
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Salamun Alaykum,
This message is for all those who can't keep up with me and Mazhar, and for the furture generations, a summary of what has happened in the past two or three pages of this thread between me and Mazhar.
Also, before I begin, here is 's general translation and transliteration, the reason for coloring is quite apparent
Translation And they ask your decision concerning women, say, Allah gives His decision, and consider what has been recited unto you in the book concerning Yatama AlNisa to whom (Feminine 'whom' you do not give what is decreed for them and desire that you marry them
Transliteration Wayastaftoonaka fee alnnisai quli Allahu yufteekum feehinna wama yutla AAalaykum fee alkitabi fee yatama alnnisai allatee la tutoonahunna ma kutiba lahunna watarghaboona an tankihoohunnaIn this post http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604568.msg313435#msg313435 Mazhar had addressed one of those early posts by me in which I discussed my take on 4127's Yatama AlNisa, regarding what it can mean, 'Orphaned women', 'Orphans of women', or 'Isolated/Jaded/Vulnerable women'. He really convincingly, or at least to me, cleared it up how it means 'Orphaned women', I would've probably never had been convinced at this point, but due to his grammatical knowledge, I was able to be convinced. Moreover, I too study the Quranic grammar, and have basic knowledge regarding it, hence was able to accept what he said. I had previously, in this post http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604568.msg311873#msg311873 said that we'll stop discussing 4127, 'until we find a better translation with strong evidence to support it' - my own words And this time did come, as Mazhar brought great strong evidence to support his translation. The next thing that I asked was regarding Allah's usage of the terms, (Just a general translation) 'Consider what has been/is being recited unto you in the book concerning ... ' in before mentioning the Yatama AlNisa and other contents of this verse. What I see is, that since Allah says that what is being mentioned has been already discussed, the Yatama AlNisa must have one way or another, directly or indirectly, been discussed in the Quran prior to this revelation. Mazhar at his site, Haqeeqat.org.pk, had cited as a reference after 'you do not give what is decreed for them'. Discusses the inheritance laws, I was confused, as to how did Mazhar deduce that it is that is linked to 'What is decreed for them', to which he replied that what else could it be? And that's when I realized what a stupid question that was And now I'm typing this.
That was the summary, I'm sorry that I didn't clarify that we aren't discussing anymore.
I have been going through these verses, over and over again, re-reading what Mazhar said, seeing what my favorite translator, Muhammad Asad has to say, and have been able to the make a connection between all these verses. In the next post I will discuss it, till then, try not to post anything
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OK )
Many thanx for the recap @Fallen Angel 21098
They consult you concerning women say, "GOD enlightens you regarding them, as recited for you in the scripture. You shall restore the rights of orphaned girls whom you cheat out of their due dowries when you wish to marry them you shall not take advantage of them. The rights of orphaned boys must also be protected as well. You shall treat the orphans equitably. Whatever good you do, GOD is fully aware thereof."
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OK
Many thanx for the recap @Fallen Angel 21098
They consult you concerning women say, "GOD enlightens you regarding them, as recited for you in the scripture. You shall restore the rights of orphaned girls whom you cheat out of their due dowries when you wish to marry them you shall not take advantage of them. The rights of orphaned boys must also be protected as well. You shall treat the orphans equitably. Whatever good you do, GOD is fully aware thereof."
Sorry Angel for not abiding by your instruction of not posting. The above post has totally distorted the Arabic text of Qur'aan, therefore, this post.
And they seek from you the Messenger your personal jurisprudential ruling about women.
You tell them; "Not me but Allah the Exalted, by that which is mentioned to you word by word in the Book-Qur'aan, gives you the legal ruling regarding the Father-Orphaned Lonely Women.
These Father-Orphaned Lonely Women are those whom you do not give what is ordained in writing for them . And you keep aspiring that you might take them in matrimonial Bond to retain what is due-written for them.
And it-Qur'aan gives you the verdict about weak young children; and that you people might stand for the interests and rights of the orphans with equity and justice".
And whatever should you people initiate performing deeds of better import, remain mindful that Allah the Exalted is certainly aware of it being omnipresent and always watching the affairs. -
Peace Azhar,
Why not call these women, the orphaned women, widows?
Dawn.
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Peace,
Or does it simply mean, adult females, whose fathers have died?
Dawn.
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Read the previous post by me before reading this
After exchanges of personal messages, and opinions on this thread between me and Mazhar, applying logic, reading Muhammad Asad's interpretation, reflecting upon the grammar, this is the whole scenario I see between 43, 46, 411, and 4127
First people, all of you, understand what 'Orphan' is according to the Quran, Arabic language, and culture. In Arabic, Yateem, the word for Orphan, is a fatherless child, so from now on (I think I mentioned this in one of those earlier posts of mine as well), whenever we say Orphan, we are referring to fatherless children/teens. Secondly, understand that the way Allah has discussed them, and according to Arabic culture, Orphans were automatically assigned guardians, they could be uncles, or brothers, or whatever. Thirdly, we must see till what period are the Orphans considered orphans. This is clearly described by 46
Transliteration Waibtaloo alyatama hatta itha balaghoo alnnikaha fain anastum minhum rushdan faidfaAAoo ilayhim amwalahum
Translation And try/test the orphans until when they reached marriage, so if you find among them maturity of intellect so give over to them their property
What I see from this verse is, that orphans are to be kept with their guardians until they reach the age of marriage. Literally it says They reach marriage, this can be interpreted in two ways, either it means reaching the time of marriage, that is, when they are ready for marriage, or when they get married, but I am quite sure that it is the former, as if it referred to getting married, then God would have probably used the verb form, but in reality, He has used the noun form. Anyway, now the question comes, What is the age of marriage? This is described by this verse itself, and . From this verse, we learn that reaching the age of marriage means being Rushd, which has two basic indirectly linked meanings; To be right as in, do the Correct action, and Maturity of intellect, as in, Being able to manage ones affairs. All these terms have been used in dictionaries. Even by cross referencing with 1866, 2151, 722, among other verses, I have noticed that it denotes the basic meaning of Being correct in something, where by context it is determined what is it that is linked with Correctness. In some instances it refers to correct knowledge, in some places it refers to correct guidance, at another place its the correct path. Here by context we can see it is a form of correctness that has something to do with property, hence, here it means the maturity of intellect that would allow one to make correct decisions in regards to his/her property. This is another reason why I believe it means Time of marriage, because it is only after receiving property mainly for men that one would be able to get married. To further understand this, lets take a look at 1734 And draw not near to the property of the orphan except in a goodly way till he/she attains maturity. The word used for Maturity is Ashudah. It comes from the root Shad, which is a broad term that generally means Strength. At times it may be taken as strength in a negative manner, as in, violence, severe etc. and at times it is translated as firm, strict, strong etc. Where all these terms are not limited to physical strength, spiritual strength, or mental strength; hence, by connecting this verse with 46 I believe it refers to the age of full strength, or the point where one, again, is capable of managing his/her property.
After this long discussion, I have concluded, that the age of receiving property, which is also the age of marriage, is not limited to puberty, but more like late teenage or young adulthood, maybe like around 17 to 20 years of age, but that varies from person to person. Since the whole issue of keeping orphans under guardianship revolves around their property, obviously when property will be given, the relation would end anyway. Hence, it is very well possible, that the orphan goes beyond puberty, but still remains under guardianship.
411 describes the laws of inheritance, keep that in mind btw.
Now lets see 4127. 4127 says that what it discusses has already been recited before, hence, it is a must that its contents one way or another are present in the Quran prior to its revelation. The first thing it mentions is Orphaned women to whom you are not giving what is prescribed for them and desire that you want to marry them. Since I have deduced that orphans can be under guardianship after puberty, the following scenario makes perfect sense keeping in mind the Arab culture and their customs of marriage The guardian of the orphan becomes greedy, and wants to keep the orphans property, to do this, he wants to marry her, so their properties become one, without him bearing the blame of Consuming her property. This was obviously a way to deceive the world. It is not exactly the desire to marry her that is not a good thing, but it is the lust for money and her property that is wrong. Also he wont be able to marry her anyway unless he isnt willing to give her the property, as the age of marriage is linked to receiving property. If he doesnt want to give her the property, he wouldnt bother testing her whether she has reached the age of maturity of intellect or not, thus, this whole case of wanting to marry her for the sake of not giving her the property she has a right over is plain wrong. Thats the reason why Allah has stressed two times just within the first 10 verses of chapter 4 on the order of being honest and very careful with an orphans property, which can be deduced by the inheritance laws in 411. This interpretation has solved my queries on 4127 as well, and I personally believe that we have solved the issue of 4127. If no one has any objections, we may continue back to 43.
Mazhar, you may answer dawngorgeous's qestion, and Released, I hope you understood what's happening between me and Mazhar.
Sorry for the late reply people, and excuse all grammatical mistakes.
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411 describes the laws of inheritance, keep that in mind btw.
Now let?s see 4127. 4127 says that what it discusses has already been recited before, hence, it is a must that its contents one way or another are present in the Quran prior to its revelation. The first thing it mentions is ?Orphaned women to whom you are not giving what is prescribed for them and desire that you want to marry them?. Since I have deduced that orphans can be under guardianship after puberty, the following scenario makes perfect sense keeping in mind the Arab culture and their customs of marriage The guardian of the orphan becomes greedy, and wants to keep the orphans property, to do this, he wants to marry her, so their properties become one, without him bearing the blame of ?Consuming? her property. This was obviously a way to deceive the world. It is not exactly the desire to marry her that is not a good thing, but it is the lust for money and her property that is wrong. Also he won?t be able to marry her anyway unless he isn?t willing to give her the property, as the age of marriage is linked to receiving property. If he doesn?t want to give her the property, he wouldn?t bother testing her whether she has reached the age of maturity of intellect or not, thus, this whole case of wanting to marry her for the sake of not giving her the property she has a right over is plain wrong. That?s the reason why Allah has stressed two times just within the first 10 verses of chapter 4 on the order of being honest and very careful with an orphan?s property, which can be deduced by the inheritance laws in 411. This interpretation has solved my queries on 4127 as well, and I personally believe that we have solved the issue of 4127. If no one has any objections, we may continue back to 43.
Peace Fallen Angel -- the above is conjecture.
What if her uncle maternal/paternal is most likely the guardian, therefore he cannot marry her?
What if her most likely suitor is not her guardian therefore he has no control of her inheritance?4127 pertains to marriage gift/dowry and those men thinking to take advantage of orphan girls.
Noon
is plural. is to an individual.
It doesnt even adress any specifik gender. is plural and can be used to both males and females.
Yes the entire community would get 1/2 from their pairs.
No we dont know that these verses point to multiple wives, its something you assume .
You also promote group marriages, so its the same thing.
Peace
Peace Maha -- what you wrote and promote is illogical; simply translate verses posted earlier, starting with these?
3350 O you the prophet indeed We made lawful to you your spouses the ones who you gave their rewards and what possess your right hand from what bestowed The God to you and girls/daughters your paternal uncles and girls/daughters your paternal aunts and girls/daughters your maternal uncles and girls/daughters your maternal aunts the ones who migrated with you and woman believing if she devotes her self to the prophet if intended the prophet that marry her exclusively to you from besides the believers hence we know what We made obligatory over them in their spouses and what possess their right hands not will be to you harm in doing and is The God Forgiving Merciful
3352 not lawful to you the women from after and not that replace in them from spouses and if/had pleased you their beauty only what possess your right hand and is The God on each a thing Watchful